Oberyn poisoned Tywin

[SeanF]

I'd love it to be true, but I have to say it's unproven at this point.

It would confirm my view that the Red Viper is Westeros' Cesare Borgia.

[echolot]

As far as I know we've never heard of any poison that would destroy someone's corpse after they were dead.

I don't know the point of view of modern medicine, but at least old greeks believed that poisoned corpses smelled much stronger than usual. Plutarch described in his biographie of Alexander the abscent of heavily stench as an evidence that Alexander wasn't poisoned, he died from illness.

[The Promised Prince]

Probably one of the best revelations/theories I've read, all those details you presented made it really outstanding!

How about Shae giving Tywin the poison? We all knew how fond Oberyn is when it comes to women.

[echolot]

saw this topic on Reddit today:

http://www.reddit.co...d_viper_poison/

Links to this:

http://boiledleather...ad-man-shitting

Quoted for your convenience.

I, for one, am utterly convinced.

And there are more evidences for this theory.

"Mother" Tommen tugged her sleeve. "What smells so bad?"

My lord father. "Death". She could smell it too; a faint whisper of decay that made her want to wrinkle her nose."

"The smell coming off her father's corpse seemed to have grown stronger. Most of the mourners had the decency to pretend that nothing was amiss, but Cersei saw some of Margaery's ladies wrinkling their little noses"

"... I do abhor foul smells." Her wrinkled face wrinkled up even more. "I caught a whiff of something unpleasant in the holy sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelled it too?"

"No" Cersei said coldly. "A scent, you say?"

"More like a stink."

ASoS, Epilogue, Cersei.

[Kolantero]

I'd like this theory to be true but in my opinion that would make Oberyn look, well, not very smart.

If the whole thing with Tyrion did not happen (and even if Varys was in on it, there is no guarantee that Tyrion would do it or that he would be successful) then everyone would know that Tywin died from poisoning. Then i doubt that a single person in Westeros would have any doubts as to who poisoned him since Oberyn has a crystal clear motive (revenge for Elia), he is a poison expert, he has the opportunity (when they meet with Tywin and drink) and it fits his brash character.

In fact the only reason they didn't accuse Oberyn for Joffrey's death was that Tyrion was there and Joffrey died after having a fight with him. If the Tyrells were the ones doing the poisoning (which imo is preety much a fact) then perhaps their goal was to kill Joffrey AND having Oberyn accused for it as a "poison expert" with a motive and sow discord between Lannisters and Tyrell's enemies, Martells.

Then Dorne, which is the least populated kingdom in westeros according to Doran, would have to fight against the iron throne preety much alone (Stannis is far away, an alliance with him doesn't mean much). Oberyn and Doran trusted each other, i doubt that Oberyn would start a war like that.

[ArianneOfSunspear]

So much WIN!!

I love super observant people!!!

[Bayard]

Well, I am completely convinced of the poisoning theory... but there are a couple of things that are weird. Oberyn wants confessions from Gregor and Tywin, Doran wants the Lannisters stripped of all their power and wealth, not to simply kill them... otherwise, he could have hired some assassins long ago. The theory goes that Oberyn poisoned Tywin when they had dinner together.... I agree that was the likeliest place to happen, but there was another man at that dinner: Mace Tyrell. Yes, yes, he is an idiot, but the Tyrells as a family aren't. They already used poison on Joffrey, why not on his grandfather??? The fact that Mace is not very smart, doesn't stop him from being able to slip something in Tywin's food... of course, after his mother convinces him.

[chrisdaw]

Makes sense. If it's true, which I'm convinced it is, Martin wanted reader to feel chills when tyrion felt chill on the back of his neck.

Perhaps his method of choice when it comes to dropping hints.

Something about the way he said it made the hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck bristle.

Something in his voice sent icy fingers running up Bran's back.

[SeanF]

And there are more evidences for this theory.

"Mother" Tommen tugged her sleeve. "What smells so bad?"

My lord father. "Death". She could smell it too; a faint whisper of decay that made her want to wrinkle her nose."

"The smell coming off her father's corpse seemed to have grown stronger. Most of the mourners had the decency to pretend that nothing was amiss, but Cersei saw some of Margaery's ladies wrinkling their little noses"

"... I do abhor foul smells." Her wrinkled face wrinkled up even more. "I caught a whiff of something unpleasant in the holy sept, in truth. Mayhaps you smelled it too?"

"No" Cersei said coldly. "A scent, you say?"

"More like a stink."

ASoS, Epilogue, Cersei.

The Queen of Thorns always knows how to twist the knife.

[Castel]

GRRM doesn't mention their funerals at all. But being that Robert was a king I would imagine it would've been just as extravagant as Tywin's. GRRM obviously meant to relay something by writing about Tywin's services, we just don't know what.

Extravagant =/= long-ass vigil.

As for what he was trying to say I would assume: rotten in life, rotten in death.

[Mulled Wino]

I'm late to the bandwagon, but make some space for me!!!!

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I'm not completely convinced. The evidence is mainly based on Tywin's corpse smelling worse than it should have done. It could jsut be that Pycelle did bungle a bit or that him being shot through the bowels made it worse or that Martin is trying to say that Tywin was rotten.

Also if you use the 'Tyrion knew where to find him, in the privy' as evidence that he knew that the Red Viper had poisoned him it opens up the question of why would he bother to go all the way up to the tower of the hand to talk to him/shoot him if he knew he was going to die anyway.

Oberyn wants not only to kill those that were responsible for Elia's death but for them to confess it as well. Equally he might only mention that Tywin might die as he wants him dead not that he's put a plan into motion.

I'm not ruling it out I just think it's a bigger step than you might think to say it happened.

[Axrendale]

Since the preparations for the corpse before it lay in state are an important part of the discussion for this theory, it is worth noting that historically, the bodies of high ranking individuals in the middle ages were routinely disembowelled, drained of blood, and packed with crude preservatives (the treatment that was given to Tywin according to Pycelle), and many of them decomposed/rotted anyway, sometimes very quickly.

Although many the rotting of Tywin's corpse is much remarked upon, and provokes strong reactions of distress or glee amongst a number of the characters, it is worth noting that none of them seem to have been moved to suspicion by it.

[pat]

opportunity check.

During that dinner is as good a time as any.

Motive check.

He hated Tywin

Why poison him when he did?

Cause he already planned to fight the Mountain and couldnt be sure he would win. With both men poisoned he wins either way.

But he might be tried and killed for Tywins death?

He was facing death in the fight so i doupt a possible later death was a concern.

The body rotting so fast isnt really proof either way. But but some sort of an infection could possibly explain it. Some hunter or doctor or vet could probably explain the purpose of not damaging the bowels while dressing an animal. The only problem is the arrow also hit that area. without any expertise in medical science i cant form an argument or dispute one.

[SeanF]

I think that Oberyn would have regarded his own death as being worth it, so long as he got to take Tywin and Ser Gregor down with him.

[Varangian]

I rarely ever post on this forum. I was reading through this thread today, though, and thought of one point that I didn't see mentioned (though I may have missed it):

Here is the citation from ASOS wherein Pycelle talks about the poisons:

"'Greycap,' he said in a quavery voice, 'from the toadstool. Nightshade, sweetsleep, demon's dance. This is blindeye. Widow's blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man's bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons. This wolfsbane, here basilisk venom, and this one the tears of Lys. Yes. I know them all. The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned.'"

Nine poisons are mentioned, and the only one to receive any real elaboration is the widow's blood. Can something be read into the fact that this was the only one which GRRM chose to "define"?

[Wun Drop]

Theory: Qyburn needed some body part from Tywin (some obvious choices include: brain, heart, balls) to complete the Robert Strong project. The bad smell at the wake is the evil stench of necromancy.

This theory works whether or not Tywin was poisoned. If he was then it could have been Qyburn or Cersei who slipped him the poison. If Cersei was involved in the poison plot, then it makes her cold "no, a scent you say?" comment all the more in-bitchy-character. The constant references to the bad smell in Cersei's PoV chapter are sort of like the beating of the tell-tale heart, she is hyper-aware of it as evidence of her guilt.

[The BlackBear]

Theory: Qyburn needed some body part from Tywin (some obvious choices include: brain, heart, balls) to complete the Robert Strong project. The bad smell at the wake is the evil stench of necromancy.

This theory works whether or not Tywin was poisoned. If he was then it could have been Qyburn or Cersei who slipped him the poison. If Cersei was involved in the poison plot, then it makes her cold "no, a scent you say?" comment all the more in-bitchy-character. The constant references to the bad smell in Cersei's PoV chapter are sort of like the beating of the tell-tale heart, she is hyper-aware of it as evidence of her guilt.

Why Tywin? And furthermore why would Cersei, who idolizes him allow Q to do that?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

If you're given a poison that shuts off both bladder and bowels, won't the bladder problem kill you first? Wouldn't Tywin have gone to Pycelle for a cure for he thought was a simple problem, and wouldn't Pycelle have mentioned that later?

And Kolantero at #205 above seems to have a point. If Oberyn survives his duel with the Mountain, he's just managed to make himself the prime suspect. (Maybe it was Mace.)

[Wun Drop]

Why Tywin? And furthermore why would Cersei, who idolizes him allow Q to do that?

Because the mind of Tywin in the undead hulk of The Mountain would be such an awesome construct I want it to be true. You're right, the theory does have flaws. :( But am I crazy to think sorcery and not poison is what caused the corpse to stink?