Oberyn poisoned Tywin

[The Dragon King]

And what chance did the Red Viper have?

If he's skilled at misdirection he might have had plenty of chances.

[The BlackBear]

Ahhh, but there is a flaw in the logic. When someone dies, the bloodstream stops. Those Tywin's disfigurement was merely decomposition. And what chance did the Red Viper have?

But once it's in the bloodstream, it will be able to diffuse into cells after death. Cyanide is lipid soluble so it can pass through memebranes without the assistance of proteins, if it had a lipid soluble component it could easily still work on him after death.

[RhaenysBee]

What? Tyrion never like being crapped on for being a dwarf no matter who did it, that it was his own father just made it worse.

Who would have liked in his place? I don't like being crapped on for being introvert/not going to fancy clubs/not eating out every night/not getting waxing instead of shaving/not traveling abroad every time I have four free days/etc by my own father either. So what? Tyrion should just deal with being crapped on, like everybody else does.

If a Lord, especially one like Tywin who had a reputation for being merciless, gives you an order you best obey if you want to live. Crying and screaming is not the best thing if you don't want yourself and your family to be killed.

Tysha had a family? :dunno: Also Tywin didn't order her to silently bear being raped around. He told her she would get a silver for each man she fucked. And even is she was raped and afraid of Tywin, I don't believe Tyrion would not have been able to tell if she was really forced. Tyrion doesn't remember such.

Aerys had it coming simply for being a nutjob with absolute power, Rhaegar would have done well to dispose Aerys by one means or another.

So it's fine for anybody to kill their father if he misuses his authority? That is one interesting concept. :bs:

[Light a wight tonight]

The theory's been out there for a while and I'd been a doubter, mostly because the arguments seemed flimsy, but the way it's put here has convinced me. The rapid, unnatural decomposition of the corpse is the key.

Now, what if Tyrion had just gone to the boat and left town. Tywin would be dead sooner or later anyhow and Shae would be alive. Would there have been an examination of the corpse to determine the cause of death? The Maesters would have found the poison and who to blame but Oberyn? Would the Lannisters declare war on Dorne? Would the Dornish declare a holiday to celebrate the revenge? What happens to Myrcella? Is she a hostage at this point? There would be major changes in the story line, whatever.

[Clariana]

Olenna seems like the sort of silent killer who comes back to the murder scene and looks at the corpses after the cops arrive. It may be that Olenna had a hand in Tywin's poisoning as well.

The same thought had occurred to me, but, of course, there is no love lost between the Dornish and the Tyrells... However, how does the saying go, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend..."? Perhaps there was some temporary co-operation between Olenna and Oberyn...

After all, Olenna wants to clear the path for Maegery and her family and Oberyn wants revenge for Elia. Tywin will always be an obstacle for Tyrell ambitions because he is such an efficient power wielder, while he is alive the Tyrells will always be subordinate to the Lannisters, once he's gone however, there is no-one to cast a shadow. Cersei is guillable, Jaime inexperienced in the wheelings and dealings of governance, Tyrion, out of the way... On the other hand, Oberyn and Doran are very clear that Tywin is the ultimate culprit of the murder of the princess and her little children.

Two renowned poisoners in KL at the same time, what a coincidence!

Could there be any further links? Well, last night reading the "Soiled Knight" Chap in AFfC something struck me. Arianne tells her lover Ser Arys, the white cloak charged with looking after Princess Myrcella in Dorne, that her great uncle Prince Lewyn, also a member of the Kingsguard was: "A great knight with a paramour. She is an old woman now, but she was a rare beauty in her youth, men say."

Ser Arys is surprised because there is no record of Prince Lewyn having had a lover, other knights of the Kingsguard being notorious for theirs. So who could this mysterious lover be?

It's far-fetched but just suppose it was Olenna, the relationship was clandestine because both their families would disapprove. It would create a relationship between the Tyrells and Dorne, something that could bring them together, if only occasionally.

Another question, who taught the poisoners art to Oberyn? Might it actually have been Olenna... Of course we are also told that Oberyn studied at Old Town and forged six links of a maester's chain, but that doesn't mean he didn't also have some extra curricular lessons.

As to when Tywin's poisoning took place, it doesn't have to be at the breakfast, does it? In fact, if you were already a known poisoner you would avoid so openly poisoning your victim would you not?

Don't forget poison doesn't have to be directly ingested through food or drink, it can be done by contact... Remember how Ayra poisons the money lender? It can be injected via a pin prick...

Anyway, hopefully, some food for thought.

[The Dragon King]

Who would have liked in his place? I don't like being crapped on for being introvert/not going to fancy clubs/not eating out every night/not getting waxing instead of shaving/not traveling abroad every time I have four free days/etc by my own father either. So what? Tyrion should just deal with being crapped on, like everybody else does

Tyrion dealt with it just fine, he was his own man and didn't care about what people would think of him. That wasn't the issue, Tywin took his wife from him and had him watch as she was gang-banged, that's kind of crossing a line.

Tysha had a family? :dunno: Also Tywin didn't order her to silently bear being raped around. He told her she would get a silver for each man she fucked. And even is she was raped and afraid of Tywin, I don't believe Tyrion would not have been able to tell if she was really forced. Tyrion doesn't remember such.

Most people have families, if not they certainly have people they care about. If you care for them it's not wise to piss off a Lord, especially one known for wiping out the entire House of one that rebelled against him.

So it's fine for anybody to kill their father if he misuses his authority? That is one interesting concept. :bs:

Is that father a complete loose cannon who's given to torturing and murdering people? That's a bit more than a "misuse".

Seriously, this is getting very weak.

[Clariana]

Uh, doesn't the Tywin v Tyrion tussle belong elsewhere?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Uh, doesn't the Tywin v Tyrion tussle belong elsewhere?

Seconded. Especially since it's clear neither party is going to change their minds any time soon...

[Res ipsa loquitur]

And after checking the chapter, now I have a problem with anyone using Widow's blood :bang:

Quote: "It shuts down a man’s bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons".

That basically means that your body isn't doing the proper businesses of removing your toxins, so there is no excretion. That means Tywin couldn't be on the toilet in the first place. :bang:

I think whoever quoted that was lacking in knowledge of anatomy and physiology. My impression was that Widow's blood caused major massive damage to both liver and kidney, the organs that do detox the body. With both organs out of commission, a person WOULD essentially drown in their own poisonous waste...but they would be able to have bowel movements and urinate (that last dependent on how badly kidneys were damaged); what was voided however, would be ineffective at cleansing the body.

[The Mother of The Others]

Tyrion still slayed kin, but in the future if Tyrion runs the family he could see to it that history downplays the toilet slaying and focusses more on the fact that Tywin was already doomed to a horrible death and Tyrion eased the poor man's suffering, denying Dorne the fullness of its revenge. It sort of gives Tyrion an out. It's possible he won't be forever reviled in the eyes of Lannisters.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

The theory's been out there for a while and I'd been a doubter, mostly because the arguments seemed flimsy, but the way it's put here has convinced me. The rapid, unnatural decomposition of the corpse is the key.

Now, what if Tyrion had just gone to the boat and left town. Tywin would be dead sooner or later anyhow and Shae would be alive. Would there have been an examination of the corpse to determine the cause of death? The Maesters would have found the poison and who to blame but Oberyn? Would the Lannisters declare war on Dorne? Would the Dornish declare a holiday to celebrate the revenge? What happens to Myrcella? Is she a hostage at this point? There would be major changes in the story line, whatever.

i'd like to agree, and say that the only real reason for the detail of the decaying corpse is to point us in the direction of a poisoning, but then again i want to say its just a reason during the reading to humanize jaime even more by putting him and his son tommen in that situation where tommen is sick from the smell and runs out of the room, jamie running after him to whisper soothing words, plus the story spreading to other parts of westeros and people asking if lord tywin was really smiling when he died, those little details i thought were just extra bits of interesting hilarious westerosi gossip, an example of how news travels in the kingdoms and how details can change

i dunno, i'm rambling, i'm still not convinced

[RhaenysBee]

Tyrion dealt with it just fine, he was his own man and didn't care about what people would think of him. That wasn't the issue, Tywin took his wife from him and had him watch as she was gang-banged, that's kind of crossing a line.

The wife who was a paid whore? (I have no proof that she wasn't)

And also, Tywin crossed a line so Tyrion killed him 15 years AFTER crossing the line? (How old is Tyrion, btw?)

Most people have families, if not they certainly have people they care about. If you care for them it's not wise to piss off a Lord, especially one known for wiping out the entire House of one that rebelled against him.

Tywin couldn't have cared less if Tysha cried or made any sign of being raped. Do you honestly think, Tywin cared that much about the whole business? Tywin always underestimated those he considered inferior. Some whore his dwarf son married was obviously not somebody Tywin would feel threatened by. He would give a tiny smile and walk away shitting on the whole thing.

Is that father a complete loose cannon who's given to torturing and murdering people? That's a bit more than a "misuse"

Tywin did not torture anybody himself which makes a difference. He also didn't murder anybody the way say, TYRION did. He just made people do it. And you can demonize Tywin as much as you like, it still doesn't make a difference that Tyrion killed his own father.

And it's getting weak? I'm sorry, but your whole starting point was weak. You don't go around murdering your father who is sitting on a privy helplessly while you are no better than him. You just don't do that. My understanding of morals does not tolerate that. Maybe yours do, fine then. Tyrion was always a little shit, but once he killed his own father he was literally nobody but a little piece of shit in my eyes. And people blaming on the father that his own son killed him just makes me hate Tyrion even more. *shrug*

Let's say we stop here, because I don't see any of us convincing the other and there is nothing more frustrating than a never ending debate with all the same arguments over and over again never reaching agreement.

[The Dragon King]

The wife who was a paid whore? (I have no proof that she wasn't)

And also, Tywin crossed a line so Tyrion killed him 15 years AFTER crossing the line? (How old is Tyrion, btw?)

It's a mistake to assume that because she was paid that she had a choice. Also, do you think it's significant that she was given silver right there in front of Tyrion? It was done for a reason, to send a message to Tyrion that she's a whore. Settling up before or afterwards wouldnt quite have the same dramatic effect.

Tywin couldn't have cared less if Tysha cried or made any sign of being raped. Do you honestly think, Tywin cared that much about the whole business? Tywin always underestimated those he considered inferior. Some whore his dwarf son married was obviously not somebody Tywin would feel threatened by. He would give a tiny smile and walk away shitting on the whole thing

On the contrary, I think it was extremely important for Tywin that she not cry or give any indication that she was forced. The purpose of that whole bit was to demean Tyrion, for that to truly work Tyrion need needs to believe that she's a whore, if she were to scream or cry Tyrion would just think that she wasn't a whore and was being forced.

Tywin did not torture anybody himself which makes a difference. He also didn't murder anybody the way say, TYRION did. He just made people do it. And you can demonize Tywin as much as you like, it still doesn't make a difference that Tyrion killed his own father

1 - I was referring to Aerys, not Tywin.

2 - Actually, it does make a big difference, Tyrion and Ned Stark have the guts to do the job themselves, that's a notch up in my book.

And it's getting weak? I'm sorry, but your whole starting point was weak. You don't go around murdering your father who is sitting on a privy helplessly while you are no better than him. You just don't do that. My understanding of morals does not tolerate that. Maybe yours do, fine then. Tyrion was always a little shit, but once he killed his own father he was literally nobody but a little piece of shit in my eyes. And people blaming on the father that his own son killed him just makes me hate Tyrion even more. *shrug*

Let's say we stop here, because I don't see any of us convincing the other and there is nothing more frustrating than a never ending debate with all the same arguments over and over again never reaching agreement.

I never once said that I agree with what Tyrion did, I just don't think of him as a piece of crap for it. He's human and he was pushed well past his breaking point with everything that had gone on. He didnt go into the room with the sole intention of killing his father, if he did he would have just pulled the trigger without saying a word to him, he wanted answers and most importantly a little respect but Tywin just chose to continue his crapping on Tyrion by calling her a whore. In general I like Cat Stark, I also think she had a very under-rated mind but that doesnt mean she didnt make a stupid move by abducting Tyrion. One of the most prominant aspects of the story is that just about all of the characters are kinda grey, that's what makes it a lot more interesting and relatable.

Yes, I agree, let's stop here.

[Ran]

I'm quite unconvinced, OTOH. As I told Sean Collins awhile back, some of the things that are claimed -- that everyone acts surprised by how quickly he's rotting -- is actually incorrect:

I'd question whether the rapidity of his rotting is something anyone is exactly wrestling with. Jaime doesn't think, "Boy, he's rotting quickly," and he's been on battle fields to smell the aftermath. Cersei is bothered by it because it leaves Tywin open to mockery in death that he never was in life (and she has to deal with it). The Queen of Thorns points it out precisely to carry out that mockery. Tommen and Margaery's cousins are all young children who can't restrain themselves.

I think Alex is is on the right track regarding the breaching of the bowels being a contributing factor. Decomposition starts in the bowels. That's why, back in the day, bowels were one of the things you pulled out of a body you wanted to preserve -- the gut flora is pretty quick to start feeding off the dead organs. But Tywin's bowels have been breached, and presumably some of that flora escaped out in the blood that seeped from that wound, and it's spreading rapidly. When Pycelle talks about what they did to the body, it's mostly about covering up the smell, after all -- there's no embalming process.

The greenishness of Tywin's face fits perfectly the description above of the state of a body after 24 hours, too.

In literary terms, I don't think GRRM's making a point of it just because of Tywin's rotteness -- not even primarily. I think it's about how even the greatest man in a thousand years (as Pycelle argues) will stink and rot. It's a reflection of the Danse Macabre, whose imagery and iconography were very significant in the later Middle Ages, with tombs featuring the cadaverous images of what the occupants would look like as they decayed and so on. And, perhaps most importantly, its something that tells us a lot about Cersei -- a large part of that chapter has her fretting and worrying about it, not able to put it aside, seeing it as a slight, arguing about it, berating Tommen, looking around to see who doesn't have the grace to pretend it's not there and so might be suspect.

So, what else do we have? Oberyn supping with Mace and Tywin... but that was at least several days before Tywin's death. Are we to believe he was poisoned with something that shuts down the bowels and bladder several days before his death, and showed no signs of it? The "stranger and stranger" thing in reality is that Jaime doesn't yet realize that Tywin's talking to Oberyn about his marrying Cersei, and that was almost certainly part of the topic of their meeting, since Willas was also a possible candidate for marrying Cersei and having Mace involved would make him feel more involved in such decisions.

Basically, no one with any genuine knowledge of such things really questions the decomposition and stench. It's the natural result of the bowels having been perforated, leading to gut flora spreading through the body and leading to more rapid decomposition.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Basically, no one with any genuine knowledge of such things really questions the decomposition and stench. It's the natural result of the bowels having been perforated, leading to gut flora spreading through the body and leading to more rapid decomposition.

Whether Oberyn poisoned Tywin or not, I think we can all agree that "gut flora" 1. needs to be used more in everyday conversation and 2. would make an awesome metal band name.

[Naathi Prince]

seriously, nice job. Hadn't thought of this at all and it totally explains why Lord Tywin rotted the way he did.

[Ran]

The assumption that widow's blood leads to unusual rotting is not, in fact, actually ever stated by anyone in the book. It's actually a very big assumption.

I might add one other problem: Doran indicates that the plan was to have Tywin see all his plans come to ruin before he finally died. Oberyn stirring up trouble to get at Gregor obviously failed to adhere to Doran's desires... but would he really have decided that Tywin needed to die now and not later after suffering a great fall engineered by the Martells? I don't think so.

[Light a wight tonight]

Re: gut flora, I'd expect that the effect would be localized due to circulation stopping at death, whereas a slow poison would have been distributed throughout the body. Mention is made of cracks in Twins face appearing.

As a (death) metal band name, "gut" could be a verb and Flora someone's name.

[Ran]

Circulation isn't needed for bacteria once it has found something to eat. It will spread through the body quite rapidly, munching all the way. This provides a nice breakdown of the decomposition process. Given that there is no embalming in Westeros, and that the perforation of Tywin's bowels would have released the particularly aggressive bacteria therein into the abdominal cavity, it's not really a surprise that decomposition happened so quickly.

[Light a wight tonight]

Circulation isn't needed for bacteria once it has found something to eat. It will spread through the body quite rapidly, munching all the way. This provides a nice breakdown of the decomposition process. Given that there is no embalming in Westeros, and that the perforation of Tywin's bowels would have released the particularly aggressive bacteria therein into the abdominal cavity, it's not really a surprise that decomposition happened so quickly.

Mayhaps. You could take this a step farther and say that poison would retard decomposition and that the rapid decomposition indicates an absence of poison.

I just like it the other way better. And it took a while before I accepted the poison idea. I'm in no hurry to change back.