The Hobbit: A Long-Expected Spoiler Movie Thread

[Buckwheat]

As mentioned above, goblins and orcs are different words for the same thing. Tolkien merely preferred using 'goblins' for the lighter-toned Hobbit and 'orcs' for the somewhat more adult Lord of the Rings. There is no differentiation between what a goblin and what an orc is in Tolkien.

In Jackson's vision, there was a differentiation with the Moria orcs, who were smaller than the standard orcs, had bigger eyes and were capable of ascending/descending vertical surfaces etc. But that's not the case in the source material.

Wow, thanks! That is interesting. I was confused when I was watching the film as to whether they were supposed to be the same species or not, and then on the forum, people used different words for it, so I thought they were different.

That must have been an exceptionally incompetent branch of orcs, though, seeing how they "fought" the dwarves.

[The Anti-Targ]

Yep... but the whole hedgehog/shack in the woods took too long for a minor charactor like Radagast.

Other thing I didn't like, when the Ring came out of Gollum's possesion and fell to the ground, it landed and bounced like an ordinary ring. In FOTR, when it fell to the ground in Bilbo's house, you could sense the power contained in it when it hit with a thud and didn't bounce.

I'll explain that away by claiming that the ring gains in power (and heft) as Sauron grows stronger and turns his will ever more to finding the ring.

[Rains]

Yep... but the whole hedgehog/shack in the woods took too long for a minor charactor like Radagast.

Other thing I didn't like, when the Ring came out of Gollum's possesion and fell to the ground, it landed and bounced like an ordinary ring. In FOTR, when it fell to the ground in Bilbo's house, you could sense the power contained in it when it hit with a thud and didn't bounce.

Because that's what it seemed to be. The 'power' of the Ring is an unkown to Bilbo, it's presence was subtle and at most, nonexistant.

I loved this film, a lot more than the book. The three hours went by so quickly, ALL three times I watched it. Now, I'm not a Tolkien noob. I've read LOTR, the Hobbit, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin and most of the HOME series. I have very minor annoyances with the lore adjusting and that's it.

The acting was brilliant. The introduction of Azog (though I would have preferred Blog) was necessary. The visuals are fantastic. And the character alterations with Thorin was *much* needed. Tolkien likes to focus on a few characters and leaves the rest of them out to dry. In the Hobbit's case, it was Bilbo and Gandalf, yet the Dwarves were almost there for comic relief.

But I'm too harsh. It's a childrens book afterall.

I never watched this in 48fps, nor will I. But the critics need to lay off and focus on the bloody picture. It's like a contest of "who can whine the loudest" so attention is given to them first. The flaw in their logic is apparent. They wanted FOTR, but NOTHING will ever surprass the awe that came with FOTR, it was a once in a lifetime thing. The Hobbit could have never reached that level, yet it tries, and does not fail to nearly grasp onto that bar.

[Rains]

Wow, thanks! That is interesting. I was confused when I was watching the film as to whether they were supposed to be the same species or not, and then on the forum, people used different words for it, so I thought they were different.

That must have been an exceptionally incompetent branch of orcs, though, seeing how they "fought" the dwarves.

So you wanted them to be overwhelmed? It's poetic license, these guys are 'lucky' in order for the narrative to continue. Besides, a lot of those Dwarves are veterans from the Orc/Dwarf war.

[Arataniello]

Other thing I didn't like, when the Ring came out of Gollum's possesion and fell to the ground, it landed and bounced like an ordinary ring. In FOTR, when it fell to the ground in Bilbo's house, you could sense the power contained in it when it hit with a thud and didn't bounce.

I guess it can be rationalized away by leaving Gollum's possession by ITS volition, whereas in Bag End, Bilbo was choosing to leave it. Or something.

[Werthead]

I'll explain that away by claiming that the ring gains in power (and heft) as Sauron grows stronger and turns his will ever more to finding the ring.

I think you can see this in the scene where Bilbo puts the Ring on. When Frodo puts it own in LotR, the 'shadow world' is dark, threatening and disturbing, with everything distorted. When Bilbo puts it on, things seem to get lighter rather than darker and the same distortion effect is there, but barely present compared to later on. It definitely looks like they're trying to make it appear that the Ring is less of a threat at this time than later on.

[Revan Baratheon]

I'm just glad thorin didn't die, I've not read the books, so I kept thinking that thorin had the doomed hero-who tries his best-boromir type aura about him, but fortunately he survived.

The movie was good until the eagles showed up, then I kept thinking, why didn't they just use the fucking air transport in the first place..

[Buckwheat]

So you wanted them to be overwhelmed? It's poetic license, these guys are 'lucky' in order for the narrative to continue. Besides, a lot of those Dwarves are veterans from the Orc/Dwarf war.

Of course not, and I am willing to suspend disbelief if necessary for the plot. I know that the "good guys" always have luck to overcome some of the obstacles on their adventures and I accept that. But this time, it was a little much, it was hard to accept that with one strike of a stick, a dwarf could shove about ten orcs into the depth.

[Sci-2]

I haven't read the Hobbit in 15 or so years so I also thought the goblins were some other species. I think it makes more sense to think of them as incompetent and degenerate orcs, as the heroes really should have been overwhelmed.

For one thing, if the goblins have archers they should ideally shoot these guys from far away.

[Happy Ent]

I think the level of goofiness in the confrontations with first the trolls and then the goblins was just right. I was very happy to see some of the book’s tone transported into the movie. In contrast, the confrontations with Azog’s orcs was much more serious.

I am confident these tonal choices were deliberate. (After all, PJ could have made the three trolls more like the cave troll in Moria, with real menace.) I liked this very much. But clearly it’s a difficult balance to strike. Many viewers will have the (perfectly valid) opinion that the movie should be consistent in tone, and possibly even compatible with the Rings movies or book. Others will want this film to more clearly be a children’s adventure story, without the scary orcs. I think these are valid visions of how this film should be. But I’m not sure they are valid criticisms — clearly the film makers have to make these choices. Equally clearly, any choice will disappoint many viewers. But from what I’ve seen, the choices have been deliberate and splendidly executed.

[fassreiter]

I think the level of goofiness in the confrontations with first the trolls and then the goblins was just right. I was very happy to see some of the book’s tone transported into the movie. In contrast, the confrontations with Azog’s orcs was much more serious.

I am confident these tonal choices were deliberate. (After all, PJ could have made the three trolls more like the cave troll in Moria, with real menace.) I liked this very much. But clearly it’s a difficult balance to strike. Many viewers will have the (perfectly valid) opinion that the movie should be consistent in tone, and possibly even compatible with the Rings movies or book. Others will want this film to more clearly be a children’s adventure story, without the scary orcs. I think these are valid visions of how this film should be. But I’m not sure they are valid criticisms — clearly the film makers have to make these choices. Equally clearly, any choice will disappoint many viewers. But from what I’ve seen, the choices have been deliberate and splendidly executed.

This is very well put. I struggled with that for a while, but once I realized some choice or other had to be made, most of them seem to work quite well (some exceptions aside), even if the outcome was not always what I would have expected or wished for. But the next morning I realized I liked the movie very much. Now I can't wait to watch it again with an open mind. What I didn't understand was the strange healing thing Gandalf did with Thorin. That was out of place in my opinion.

[11th Heaven]

Can anyone tell me the name of the track that plays just as Bilbo is about to kill Gollum, but decides to spare him?

[williamjm]

I haven't read the Hobbit in 15 or so years so I also thought the goblins were some other species. I think it makes more sense to think of them as incompetent and degenerate orcs, as the heroes really should have been overwhelmed.

For one thing, if the goblins have archers they should ideally shoot these guys from far away.

I guess if they spend most of their lives in dark tunnels then a bow and arrow probably wouldn't be their preferred weapon. The Moria orcs do have arrows in Fellowship, but they probably have more use for archery if they're regularly trying to raid Lothlorien.

[Lightning Lord]

I haven't read the Hobbit in 15 or so years so I also thought the goblins were some other species. I think it makes more sense to think of them as incompetent and degenerate orcs, as the heroes really should have been overwhelmed.

For one thing, if the goblins have archers they should ideally shoot these guys from far away.

Goblins did shoot at them. One of the dwarves was able to knock all of the arrows away with his sword. (not certain this was in the goblinses cave)

[Sci-2]

Goblins did shoot at them. One of the dwarves was able to knock all of the arrows away with his sword. (not certain this was in the goblinses cave)

Sorry, I meant shoot at them from far away. I know protags have plot armor anyway, so maybe it was better they didn't have archers shooting at the dwarves from a distance.

[Lightning Lord]

Hahah, plot armor...

I expect that in any action movie - just that I thought it went a little over-the-top in this movie. It distracted me from fully immersing and enjoying the scenes.

[Durckad]

I think the level of goofiness in the confrontations with first the trolls and then the goblins was just right. I was very happy to see some of the book’s tone transported into the movie. In contrast, the confrontations with Azog’s orcs was much more serious.

I am confident these tonal choices were deliberate. (After all, PJ could have made the three trolls more like the cave troll in Moria, with real menace.) I liked this very much. But clearly it’s a difficult balance to strike. Many viewers will have the (perfectly valid) opinion that the movie should be consistent in tone, and possibly even compatible with the Rings movies or book. Others will want this film to more clearly be a children’s adventure story, without the scary orcs. I think these are valid visions of how this film should be. But I’m not sure they are valid criticisms — clearly the film makers have to make these choices. Equally clearly, any choice will disappoint many viewers. But from what I’ve seen, the choices have been deliberate and splendidly executed.

I think the level of goofiness worked rather well in the troll scene. It was goofy and funny but there was still a level of menace to it.

The goblin caves, OTOH, once Gandalf saved the dwarves and the Donkey Kong Minecart sequence started up, it lost me. Too much goofiness for me there.

[CloudFlare]

I think you can see this in the scene where Bilbo puts the Ring on. When Frodo puts it own in LotR, the 'shadow world' is dark, threatening and disturbing, with everything distorted. When Bilbo puts it on, things seem to get lighter rather than darker and the same distortion effect is there, but barely present compared to later on. It definitely looks like they're trying to make it appear that the Ring is less of a threat at this time than later on.

The difference in the shadow world was a nice touch, and your previous explanation makes sense.

How powerful was Sauron when Smeagol and Deagol found the Ring? It seemed to be powerful enough to corrupt both of them instantly.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I think you can see this in the scene where Bilbo puts the Ring on. When Frodo puts it own in LotR, the 'shadow world' is dark, threatening and disturbing, with everything distorted. When Bilbo puts it on, things seem to get lighter rather than darker and the same distortion effect is there, but barely present compared to later on. It definitely looks like they're trying to make it appear that the Ring is less of a threat at this time than later on.

The Ring needs to be less of a threat for Bilbo. Whereas Frodo is (rightly) terrified of the thing, Bilbo is much more comfortable wearing it when necessary.

[Sci-2]

The difference in the shadow world was a nice touch, and your previous explanation makes sense.

How powerful was Sauron when Smeagol and Deagol found the Ring? It seemed to be powerful enough to corrupt both of them instantly.

These guys might have been somewhat greedy to begin with, though their easily corruptible natures were admittedly necessary for PJ to present a flashback that wasn't drawn out.