Moments of Foreshadowing 3

[Eir]

Couldn't "waves in dance" be the Iron Bank of Bravoosi? They are the water dancers and KL owes a ton of money.

New here btw, so Hi all.

Hello and welcome!!

I always thought "waves" referred to something related to the Old Gods and Children of the Forest, but could be wrong and really don't know enough about the water dancers or Braavos to know otherwise. I like your idea, though.

Here's a thread that could be of some interest--I've had it bookmarked for ages, so must read it as well! :read:

Arya/No One/and the Water Motif in Braavos

[Roza Ahai]

Really nice catch. Too bad about them likes...

Who or what is the starfish then? The mermen seem to refer to the Manderlys it seems to me.

I think mermen are the Ironborn. Red crab Stannis and Asha Greyjoy, conqueror Dany and Victarion, spider crab Aegon and the Ironborn in Westeros.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is my theory about the "mermen feast on starfish soup and serving men are crabs."

Mermen: House Manderly

Starfish: Five-appendaged sea creature -> a hand -> Davos

Serving men are crabs: House Borrell's sigil is a crab and it was Godric of House Borrell who sent Davos on ("served") to the Manderlys (the mermen)

Manderly (who is associated with gluttony and eating and feasting) is making use of Davos to retrieve Rickon, possibly with some sort of hidden agenda that isn't necessarily in Davos' best interest.

"The mermen feast on starfish soup and the serving men are crabs" -> Godric of House Borrell serves up Davos, the Hand of the King, to Lord Manderly, who makes use of him to retrieve Rickon Stark.

This has been my interpretation of it for as long as I can remember. Ice Turtle's thing about the crabs possibly referring to different types of kings is interesting too, though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I've been wondering lately — as in the past 5-10 minutes — if Brandon Snow is meant to foreshadow that Bran and Jon will be the ones to successfully kill and/or coopt the dragons. You have the obvious amalgamated name, and the weirwood. Brandon Snow being a bastard applies to Jon (publicly ...), while his weapon of choice, the weirwood, applies to Bran but also in a way applies to both of them. People have thrown up Theon as a possibility for someone who might successfully slay a dragon with a weirwood arrow, but I think that the material is what matters, not so much the weapon. Yes, I think Brandon was onto something and that a weirwood arrow would kill a dragon. But if you look at what the weirwood symbolizes — earth magic, the old gods — then it can take a double meaning: literal weirwood arrows and that which the weirwood represents.

I have wondered too how Brandon Snow "figured out" that weirwood would work. Was he familiar with its fire-resistant qualities and thought he'd give it a shot? Did he have supernatural guidance? I've thought about the possibility that Brandon might have been a warg who received a heads-up from greenseer. But in that case, why not just try to warg a dragon? Perhaps it takes a greenseer or someone who also has Valyrian heritage (again, those things apply, respectively, to Bran and Jon). Or maybe Brandon wasn't anything special and just heard voices from the trees one day. Whatever the root explanation, I think he had some way to know that the weirwood would do the job.

[Alkion]

I have wondered too how Brandon Snow "figured out" that weirwood would work. Was he familiar with its fire-resistant qualities and thought he'd give it a shot? Did he have supernatural guidance? I've thought about the possibility that Brandon might have been a warg who received a heads-up from greenseer. But in that case, why not just try to warg a dragon? Perhaps it takes a greenseer or someone who also has Valyrian heritage (again, those things apply, respectively, to Bran and Jon). Or maybe Brandon wasn't anything special and just heard voices from the trees one day. Whatever the root explanation, I think he had some way to know that the weirwood would do the job.

I think he was desperate and that maybe an arrow from a "sacred" tree would confer some sort of advantage. I don't think he figured out that it would work, and there is no evidence that it would've worked had he been given the go-ahead to try. A weirwood arrow might be a much better quality arrow than a standard one, simply because it is a very dense, solid wood. That doesn't mean it will magically kill a dragon though. Chances are it would just have a slightly better chance of getting through to hit a sensitive spot, and that Brandon Snow believed that he could hit one of them.

Without evidence, I don't see any reason to assume it has magical fire-resistant properties, any more than bratty Targs do. We have two examples from the text that it does burn, the godswood at Storm's end, and the branches that the wildlings had to burn to pass through the wall. As a very dense, sappy wood, it probably does have a higher burning point, but if a tree can burn at Storm's end, then dragonflame can likely burn an arrow. Chances are he would just pick it because of its strength and sacredness, and Torrhen was right in making the call he did.

[chrisdaw]

Drogon did peculiarly attack the weirwood archway frame(?) in the hotu.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Without evidence, I don't see any reason to assume it has magical fire-resistant properties, any more than bratty Targs do.

I do think some dragon(s) will die, but I agree that it happening via that method is unlikely. Partly b/c of the evidence you cited, and partly b/c I just find the idea of some dragon dying via a weirwood arrow through the eye to be a bit fantastical. I think there is stronger foreshadowing (Arya and Jaqen poisoning dragon coins, and the inference that Maesters killed the old dragons via this method) for dragon(s) death occurring via poisoning, and this would fit with GRRM's style imo.

Look at Tywin: He was this big man that everyone went in fear of. In his wrath he completely destroyed two castles and families, not unlike the way Balerion destroyed Harrenhal and Black Harren's family. So everyone goes in fear of him...and then he dies a pathetic death on the shitter.

Soon we're gonna have the dragons show up in Westeros, and they'll surely wreck some shit and cause all kinds of devastation. Most of Westeros is gonna fear their wrath. Then imagine one or two of them suddenly drop dead from eating a bad piece meat....very GRRM-esque if you ask me :drunk:

EDIT: If you believe the Oberyn/Tywin theory, then Tywin was probably was poisoned too. He was also shot by a quarrel, but I don't think there is a dragon equivalent of being caught on the shitter. And the main point is that the dragon's death be shockingly bland, even funny in a way.

Drogon did peculiarly attack the weirwood archway frame(?) in the hotu.

"Attack" is not the word I would use, since Drogon was actually trying to lead Dany towards that weirwood door in order to save her from the Undying. So if that moment foreshadows anything, well....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Without evidence, I don't see any reason to assume it has magical fire-resistant properties, any more than bratty Targs do. We have two examples from the text that it does burn, the godswood at Storm's end, and the branches that the wildlings had to burn to pass through the wall. As a very dense, sappy wood, it probably does have a higher burning point, but if a tree can burn at Storm's end, then dragonflame can likely burn an arrow. Chances are he would just pick it because of its strength and sacredness, and Torrhen was right in making the call he did.

Was the godswood tree that burned at Storm's End actually a weirwood? I'm seriously asking, given that much ado is made about how rare weirwoods are in the south. If it's not a weirwood you can't use it as part of your argument. The giant weirwood that Jon sees where the wildlings burn their dead is still in immaculate condition, as is the Winterfell weirwood despite the fires lit when it was sacked. I'm not talking about literal magic in the weirwood arrow — I'm using, you know, symbolism to link it back to Bran and the old gods and so on — just that I think Brandon had to have some indication, other than a "hail Mary" that it would work.

[Bushido]

Was the godswood tree that burned at Storm's End actually a weirwood? I'm seriously asking, given that much ado is made about how rare weirwoods are in the south. The giant weirwood that Jon sees where the wildlings burn their dead is still in immaculate condition. I'm not talking about literal magic in the weirwood arrow — I'm using, you know, symbolism to link it back to Bran and the old gods and so on — just that I think Brandon had to have some indication, other than a "hail Mary" that it would work.

I think you have a good point there. Catelyn mentions redwood in Riverrun godswood and there is an oak in King's Landing.

I would give more thought as to Storm's End godswood,given the history of the castle and the magic used to build it,but yeah,it could very well be any other tree than weirwood.

[Alkion]

I think you have a good point there. Catelyn mentions redwood in Riverrun godswood and there is an oak in King's Landing.

I would give more thought as to Storm's End godswood,given the history of the castle and the magic used to build it,but yeah,it could very well be any other tree than weirwood.

I'm going to reply more thoroughly in a bit in the topic now dedicated to this theory, but yeah, the tree in Storm's end was definitely a Weirwood. Not only that, there is one in Riverrun as well. In chapter 2 of Game, it is implied that there isn't one, that they are only Redwoods, but in Chapter 71 of Game (Catelyn's last), in Riverrun, it says:

She found Robb beneath the green canopy of leaves, surrounded by tall redwoods and great old elms, kneeling before the heart tree, a slender weirwood with a face more sad than fierce.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm going to reply more thoroughly in a bit in the topic now dedicated to this theory, but yeah, the tree in Storm's end was definitely a Weirwood. Not only that, there is one in Riverrun as well. In chapter 2 of Game, it is implied that there isn't one, that they are only Redwoods, but in Chapter 71 of Game (Catelyn's last), in Riverrun, it says:

I didn't ask about the weirwood in Riverrun, which no one has yet to burn. I'm asking about the tree in Storm's End.

[Alkion]

I didn't ask about the weirwood in Riverrun, which no one has yet to burn. I'm asking about the tree in Storm's End.

I was replying to Bushido, who mentioned that there wasn't one in Riverrun, I was merely offering a correction. I was going to reply about the tree in Storm's end in the main thread, but the reference is Storm, Davos 1, Chapter 5: "and later he had burned the godswood at Storm’s End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was replying to Bushido, who mentioned that there wasn't one in Riverrun, I was merely offering a correction. I was going to reply about the tree in Storm's end in the main thread, but the reference is Storm, Davos 1, Chapter 5: "and later he had burned the godswood at Storm’s End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face."

Fair enough.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I was replying to Bushido, who mentioned that there wasn't one in Riverrun, I was merely offering a correction. I was going to reply about the tree in Storm's end in the main thread, but the reference is Storm, Davos 1, Chapter 5: "and later he had burned the godswood at Storm’s End as well, even the heart tree, a huge white weirwood with a solemn face."

It's my theory that when Stan and Mel burned the godswood at Storm's End they destroyed the magic protecting that keep and now the untakeable citadel will fall. It might even be destroyed by a big storm (or the Hammer of the Waters). Just saying.

God I hate Mel, that tree-burning beyotch.

[Roza Ahai]

The dragon would be harmless if it is hit by an arrow in a eye? Lightbringer should kill the dragon if it hits in a eye. Magic weapon against the magic creature.

[Ice Turtle]

A little off topic but I'm more and more sure that dragon's can't be warged by regular skinchanger, thinking of Hardome, I think that it were dragonriders who were warged and it ended up with heavy loses on both sides, which would be enough to keep Valyrians out of Westeros.

[Scipio Africanus]

People have thrown up Theon as a possibility for someone who might successfully slay a dragon with a weirwood arrow, but I think that the material is what matters, not so much the weapon.

Would be a neat trick coming from Theon, considering he can't weild a bow anymore.

A little off topic but I'm more and more sure that dragon's can't be warged by regular skinchanger, thinking of Hardome, I think that it were dragonriders who were warged and it ended up with heavy loses on both sides, which would be enough to keep Valyrians out of Westeros.

So you think the Valyrians attacked Hardhome? Why would they do that? Hardhome isn't exactly a logical first choice for them. By the by this isn't mentioned anywhere. All its mentioned is that Hardhome was sacked and its inhabitants enslaved.

[ARYa_Nym]

This is from Ser Wun Wun. :D

The man Arya kills with the poisoned dragon is a untrustworthy merchant, which actually reminds me a bit lof Illyrio:

Remember Arya saw Illyrio plotting to kill her father. The KM told her that she needs to learn Pentoshi and Dany mentioned scrawny cats on the walls of Illyrio's estate.

ADWD; Arya

The old man was some sort of merchant, Cat concluded after watching him for a few days. His trade had to do with the sea, though she never saw him set foot upon a ship. He spent his days sitting in a soup shop near the Purple Harbor, a cup of onion broth cooling at his elbow as he shuffled papers and sealing wax and spoke in sharp tones to a parade of captains, shipowners, and other merchants, none of whom seemed to like him very much..

Never seems to go on his own ships, the people he deals with can't stand him. Sounds like Illyrio imo:

ADWD; Arya (describing the merchant)

He has hands like two white spiders. The more she watched his hands, the more she came to hate them.

Spiders...Varys. Arya has spied on Varys and Illyrio before and gotten away with it, in fact she is the only one. "The more she watched, the more she came to hate them", I find that line interesting as well

ADWD; Arya

He had guards. Two of them, a tall thin man and a short thick one....(cut) At the soup shop, the short one always tasted the onion broth

first. The old man waited until the broth had cooled before he took a sip, long enough to be sure his guardsman had suffered no ill effects.

Let's say Varys is the short fat guard, he is the one in KL taking all the risks ('tasting the onion broth for poison') before the merchant (Illyrio) bestirs himself. This has basically been the arrangement between Illyrio and Varys all along with regards to plotting for Aegon.

So Arya poisons a dragon...and a merchant dies. Sounds like she will have a hand in toppling Aegon and Illyrio, who will eventually be enemies of Dany's since GRRM has confirmed we will get a 2nd Dance of the Dragons.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79936-whom-do-you-think-arya-would-vouch-for-between-stannis-and-targaryen/page__st__160#entry4036049

I've long thought what would be the point of having an assassin storyline for Arya if it was going to be utilized for her to either kill flop nobodies in the Riverlands, John Does from her list, or to be a sidekick for another major character? This is not True Blood where they start a storyline only for it to have no point whatsoever.

I looked up assassins and the FM compares to the assassins of the Council of Ten and the original assassins from around the time of the Crusades. One of the major things that they have in common are that assassins get rid of political targets. For example:

The Hashshashin (also Hashishin), or Assassins were a religious group (some would say a cult) of Ismaili Muslims from the Nizari sub-sect with a militant basis, thought to be active in the 8th to 14th centuries as a mystic secret society specializing in terrorizing the Abbasid elite with fearlessly executed, politically motivated assassinations. Their own name for the sect was al-da'wa al-jadīda (الدعوة الجديدة) which means the new doctrine and they called themselves fedayeen from the Arabic fidā'ī which means one who is ready to sacrifice their life for a cause — that term has the modern connotation of "freedom fighter". The name Hashshashin was given to them by their Muslim enemies.

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/627204

So while Arya's story seems removed from politics RN aside from mentioning the Sealord of Braavos I think it makes sense for GRRM to have her do what assassins are known for. Killing people of significance. Varys, Illyrio, and Aegon are perfect targets.

Now, Jaqen may very well poison one of Dany's dragons while Arya is doing her thing.

Maybe Arya will pose as a little bird? Who knows.

[Ice Turtle]

So you think the Valyrians attacked Hardhome? Why would they do that? Hardhome isn't exactly a logical first choice for them. By the by this isn't mentioned anywhere. All its mentioned is that Hardhome was sacked and its inhabitants enslaved.

But who else than Valyrians would be doing the enslaving? even Aegon didn't chose a big port for his invasion. Besides fire was mentioned.

[Fire Eater]

We all know this

He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me.

But I would like to add these:

I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze.

I [Cersei] should have had the sword not him.

"Prince Aemon the Dragonknight cried the day Princess Naerys wed his brother Aegon," Sansa Stark said, "and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound."

We know Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and Princess Naerys is a parallel for Jaime and Cersei; I think the latter part of Sansa's sentence foreshadows them killing each other. I think while Jaime is strangling Cersei to death she will take his sword from his scabbard and mortally wound him; killing each other tearfully.

ETA: good interpretation of Patchface's prophecy Apple