Jon and Arya Hooking Up

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

If the OP is still reading I will try to take knee-jerk reactions out of this.

Jon & Arya were raised as siblings, & love each other as such, this is true...but...they have been separated, they are under going MAJOR changes in their personalities, mind sets, beliefs, basically their whole entire beings! It will be years before they reunite, they (her in particular) will have undergone physical, & emotional growth. Presumedly they will have found out about the true nature of their relationship. With all of those factors...it is possible that the nature of their love could change. & excepting that cousins, are allowed under the standards of the time, place, & conventions (it is even allowed in the real world of the present in many places)...yes it could very well happen!

That being said however, I think it unlikely...but don't let what these people freak you out, ship them if you wish...it's fantasy!

[Brienne Of Bombay]

God I hope it doesn't happen!

[ladyofslytherin]

I have to agree that the biggest obstacle to a Jon/Arya relationship is the fact that they were raised in what most people consider a very normal sibling relationship and in an emotionally-healthy environment.

Catelyn wasn't the warmest to Jon, and from contextual clues, neither was Sansa (although Sansa was prolly nicer & just taking cues from her mother on that score). But Jon was well-loved by Robb, Ned, and the other folk of Winterfell. Theon was prolly like a distant, really annoying cousin that lived with them: you and he don't exactly get along, but tolerance & familiarity keep things civil, if not affectionate. And Arya was loved and cared for by her entire family, with the exception of Sansa, whose only reason for even believing Arya was her trueborn sister & not a bastard like Jon is because Catelyn told her so & she figured her mother had no reason to lie about it.

Can incestuous relationships start in those environments? Yes, but very seldom. Incestuous relationships are trained out of us culturally in those kinds of environments, and it usually takes strong impetus on both siblings' parts to push past that training enough to start one.

Twincest, to use the modern parlance, is the general exception to this rule. Because twins are born together, having shared a womb and usually sharing a closer bond than siblings with time between their births, most people assume that the rules of sexuality and intimacy are more relaxed; even if the twins aren't overtly sexually active with each other, people tend to assume that they share lovers more easily because of their unique closeness. And even if parents discourage that kind of intimacy, as Joanna Lannister tried to do with Cersei & Jaime, most people assume that the bond the twins share overrides social conditioning.

Are there twins that have little or no interest in sharing sexual partners or being intimate with each other? Of course. Whether the twins are same gendered or opposite, there are plenty of twins who go their whole lives without sharing so much as one illicit kiss or accepting one proposed menage a trois. But that doesn't mean people don't make assumptions about them.

And then there's the cultural reversal, as in the Targaryen family, wherein siblings and cousins are expected to marry to preserve the purity of their bloodline. Egyptian pharoahs are the most well-known examples of this IRL. In these cases, incest is a cultural norm, and so is given no more thought than it would be given today if a husband and wife traced their family histories and realized that they are technically cousins because their family trees descended from a pair of siblings. Generations down the family line, the relation is so remote that it doesn't matter culturally. In families like the Targaryens, it's considered normal and correct, and so doesn't matter.

Were there Targs that might have thought so much intermarriage might not have been the greatest plan? Probably. But if there were those with reservations and they voiced them, it didn't change the culture within the family any or the family at large's attitude towards the subject.

Lastly, you have situations like the Chris & Cathy Dollanganger in V.C. Andrews' Flowers In the Attic and the subsequent novels of the Dollanganger series, or the Winchester brothers in the television show Supernatural. These are siblings not born together, but who are emotionally, psychologically, socially and physically isolated from most of society. While "Wincest" is a fan device which is teased over or alluded to by the canon series, as opposed to the overt incest in the Andrews' novels, the impetus to overcome what the siblings acknowledge to be the "normal" bounds of siblinghood results from their isolation requiring that their sibling fill the roles usually played by others in society at large. But Jon & Arya didn't experience any such isolation, as described above. They might've bonded over how different they were from their other siblings, but they had connections to other people both within the family and in the society of Winterfell & the surrounding holdfasts as well.

So when you add all of this ramble up, I feel that Jon & Arya don't have the required emotional impetus to push past the cultural boundaries of their relationship as it developed at Winterfell. And even if Jon is revealed to be Arya's cousin instead of her sibling, it's the social conditioning from their childhood that will control the bounds of their relationship as adults, when and if they ever see one another again.

And just for the record? Jon & Arya wouldn't be half-cousins, as someone called them in this thread somewhere. Ned & Lyanna weren't half-siblings, and so their children would just be cousins. They'd be half-cousins if Ned & Lyanna had the same mother & different fathers, or vice versa.

[Minstral]

Wow.... this is still going on....

Okay, I'll give a bit of my own opinion. Does Ned stop being the Father of Jon if he is not his biological father? He raised him as a son of the North, shown him a home, and provided him with a family of many brothers and sisters. If another is his real father, then how would this negate the family bonds that Jon had known from the Stark's. Blood does not factor into this (in the way of family bonds). If one is to advocate taking a person as their lover that they thought/is their sister, then they deny the past and the family that they knew. That to me is extremely profane.

[Mini Ghost]

In my side of the world Arya + Gendry rule! And Nym + Ghost? That would be EEWWW! Double ewww if the humans are warging them :devil:

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Ugh. The quality that makes their relationship beautiful is siblinghood. And you want to lose that for incestual gross relationship??

[Eira Seren]

Nooooo! please, no.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Wow.... this is still going on....

Okay, I'll give a bit of my own opinion. Does Ned stop being the Father of Jon if he is not his biological father? He raised him as a son of the North, shown him a home, and provided him with a family of many brothers and sisters. If another is his real father, then how would this negate the family bonds that Jon had known from the Stark's. Blood does not factor into this (in the way of family bonds). If one is to advocate taking a person as their lover that they thought/is their sister, then they deny the past and the family that they knew. That to me is extremely profane.

Indeed. In fact, im pretty sure Jon wouldnt cast the idea of Ned being his father even if he did learn the truth. He would still say "I am the son of Eddard Stark." after all is said and done. Thats how Jon rolls. He would still think of the other Stark kids as his siblings.

[Roza Ahai]

Double ewww if the humans are warging them :devil:

Poor animals. So much abuse. Unfortunately, there is no such organisation like Animal Protection Society in Westeros. Look, what happened to Orells' eagle.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

no non oχι nein nej hayir nej nee nei

I think I have covered it. If Arya has to be with someone I vote for Ned Dayne...

[Florina Laufeyson]

no non oχι nein nej hayir nej nee nei

I think I have covered it. If Arya has to be with someone I vote for Ned Dayne...

Double the nej. Double the fun! (also you forgot nyet)

[Eir]

Eeeeek no. Even if R+L=J Jon and Arya grew up calling eachother siblings. They may turn out to be cousins but that doesn't disguise the years of him calling her "Little Sister". I really don't foresee it happening. It doesn't fit their characters.

Jon & Arya were raised as siblings, & love each other as such, this is true...but...they have been separated, they are under going MAJOR changes in their personalities, mind sets, beliefs, basically their whole entire beings! It will be years before they reunite, they (her in particular) will have undergone physical, & emotional growth.

Jon is one of the most grounded characters in the series. Whichever potential life-changing, stressful events occur in the next books, I highly doubt he'll sleep with someone he grew up calling "little sister" and continues to think of as a "little girl." I don't think someone like Arya would find that a particular turn-on, either.

[Ice Turtle]

The idea of Jon and Arya grosses me out because Arya's hasn't even hit puberty and considering who she'd have sex with is very disturbing and uncomfortable and because there has been no foreshadowing that they'd get married some day.

Disagree about foreshadowing. There is some like Ned telling Arya that she will marry a king, Arya kissing the cat called black bastard and real king of the RK and Ygritte asking Jon if he would marry his sister.

Characters younger than Arya are described as having crushes, Bran, Myrcella, Sansa and LF come to mind, some of them even kissing someone. So I don't think it is so out of question to speculate about Arya's romantic interests. No one is telling that she will have sex as twelve years old.

...

As far as I know Jon/Arya shippers see it as a future relationship based on their personalities and Jon's preferences when it comes to women. And foreshadowing.

That said I'm more or less closet Jon/Arya shipper, because I'm here long enough to know that some topics are undiscussable on this forum, as you will only get ton of emotional responses and nothing else.

[Arya Targaryen]

They may be cousins, but they were raised as brother and sister and have still spent most of their lives together. That makes it still squicky as hell.

I could have quoted anybody, who was saying what you've said, but this is the essence of it.

And I disagree, for several reasons.

First, I think cousin relationship is OK in Westeros, it is not considered to be incestious, so if it ever happens, it won't be against any law, I think we agree on that one.

So the main problem is that they grew up together. I understand it might be a problem, but since we know it CAN happen that "siblings" develop romantic feelings towards each other, we cannot rule it out completely.

For me, it's the other way round. People say, they grew up believing they are siblings, so they won't love each other (romantically). I think, if they learn, they are not siblings, and they meet afterwards, it won't cause any problems for them.

(Have any of you seen the "Desert of fire" with Anthony Delon? it is an italian film/series (3 episodes), so I'm not sure what the English title is. The character of Anthony Delon was raised as the son of the emir (?) and he had a sister. They thought they are really brother and sister, but they fall in love. He wanted to find a solution (because he knew it isn't right to love his sister), and he learnt he had been adopted, So they are not related at all. Finally they got married. Is it weird? And it is not the only example in literature/films - even real history)

Arya was never interested in boys before she left Winterfell, at the age of 9. Obviously she never was interested in Jon, as a boy.

Jon wasn't interested in girls, romantically: the thought of being a bastard himself, always prevented it. And even if he was, Arya was only a child, he clearly never was interested in her as a girl: he liked her as a person (who happened to be his sister).

Next time they meet, Jon will be much older, wiser and experienced, which is not a bad thing at all.

Arya will hit puberty and there are hints she will be beautiful. (If Jon inherited his father's taste in girls, he might be attracted to Arya, lol.)

They both think a lot about each other, but they remember the other as a child: when they meet, both of them will realize the changes they went through. I can see them develop romantic feelings, as they both seem to be attracted to partners who remind them of the other.

If Rickon dies (I don't know if it will ever happen, but it is still a possibility), marrying Jon and Arya would be an axcellent political solution for the North, knowing R+L=J. I wrote about that in another thread, I can't remember, where. Basically, everybody gets what he wants: Ned's daughter and and adult, experienced male with Stark blood, raised by Ned - on the throne. I can see that happening. If that is what brings balance to the North, they will both do it: Jon was raised to do his duty, and Arya was raised knowing she will be married off to someone she probably doesn't even know. With all her experience in life, she may agree, that Jon is a much better choice than anybody else around. What I'm trying to say, marriage among nobles does not require romantic feelings at all - they do their duty, and love may happen as a result.

Ghost + Nymeria: I know they are really siblings, and wolves usually don't practise incest, but they might, under desperate circimstances. Like if they don't find another mate. Nymeria doesn't let any male wolves to mate with her, because she is the alpha (biggest, strongest) of her pack. But Ghost is bigger and stronger, so if they ever meet, there is a chance, Nymeria will accept him.

So yeah, I'm an Arya/Jon shipper, and I know I'm in the minority. Don't hate me, please.

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh yes, Ygritte asked him if he would bed his sister and Jon didn't say no. He didn't say yes but still. The hell no reflex was not there but I like to use this as evidence in favor of Jon/Dany.

“She punched him, “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?” “Longspear’s not your brother.” “He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.” “Craster weds his daughters,” Jon pointed. She punched him again. “Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village…”

Arya does say that Jon needs to stop calling her his little sister.

"She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore He’d have to call me something else."

& Jon wondered if she was ever his sister.

"Arya. Is she still my sister? He wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy."

She kissed Jon too.

Arya ran to him for a last hug. “Put down the sword first,” Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.

I don't favor this romance though.

Anyways...who in the books is a hunter?

Because:

My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down,

I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown.

For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord.

I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword.

…And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree

She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me.

I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass

But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass.

If Arya is supposed to be a swan then her lover is a Siegfried.

Siegfried is a young Prince, full of bright spirit and enthusiasm and seems to have little interest in his role as a Prince. His favourite hobby is hunting and he often hunts with his best friend Benno.

& in the song she tells the boy who wants her that he can be her forest love. She will not have him as her lord.

ETA: She briefly considered Gendry when she wanted to be an outlaw with him like Wenda the White Fawn but he left her so she changed her mind. Like I said he is unworthy of her imo.

[Arya Targaryen]

Disagree about foreshadowing. There is some like Ned telling Arya that she will marry a king, Arya kissing the cat called black bastard and real king of the RK and Ygritte asking Jon if he would marry his sister.

Characters younger than Arya are described as having crushes, Bran, Myrcella, Sansa and LF come to mind, some of them even kissing someone. So I don't think it is so out of question to speculate about Arya's romantic interests. No one is telling that she will have sex as twelve years old.

...

As far as I know Jon/Arya shippers see it as a future relationship based on their personalities and Jon's preferences when it comes to women. And foreshadowing.

That said I'm more or less closet Jon/Arya shipper, because I'm here long enough to know that some topics are undiscussable on this forum, as you will only get ton of emotional responses and nothing else.

:agree:

[ARYa_Nym]

Ghost + Nymeria: I know they are really siblings, and wolves usually don't practise incest, but they might, under desperate circimstances. Like if they don't find another mate. Nymeria doesn't let any male wolves to mate with her, because she is the alpha (biggest, strongest) of her pack. But Ghost is bigger and stronger, so if they ever meet, there is a chance, Nymeria will accept him.

This is possible. It's either she's never going to reproduce or it's because she feels that they are unsuitable. In the wild animals think can my mate protect me and my cubs? Is he strong enough? etc. In certain cases with certain animals and instances choosing the right mate is what allows them to survive or perish.

So Nymeria might think that these little wolves aren't up to par and she needs a direwolf. A strong male. That is Ghost imo. He can get her to submit because she already listened to him in AGoT.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

If this happened then I would have to dry clean my eyeballs with a fork.

[The Rise of Dorne]

She's his sister. I will brook no such abominations here! this is not kingslanding!

[Arya Targaryen]

She's his sister. I will brook no such abominations here! this is not kingslanding!

But she is not :rolleyes: