The Unholy Consult Previews 2: Murder Shae Wrote

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Armitage, I think you're making a dangerous assumption when you say that sorcerers are damned because their song damages creation, meaning that the unmarked psûkhari are not damned. We don't know why some would be damned and others not. It might be the presumption to speak with the God's voice, meaning that the Cish would be damned even though they don't damage the onta.

Here's a thought about Titirga - we know he is "killed" by Shae in Viri (I think Viri) but do we know where that is? Is it possible that he could return as a ghost just as the Nonman king did in TJE?

[Sci-2]

And we know that the trap had some kind of metaphysical nature to it and was built on a topos.

I thought this was speculation?

[sologdin]

My favorite pet Tolkien crackpottery is that Gandalf didn't actually die in Moria. I've only read Fellowship, but I'm sure in Two Towers I'll be proven right.

he comes back as jesus-lion!

[Armitage]

Armitage, I think you're making a dangerous assumption when you say that sorcerers are damned because their song damages creation, meaning that the unmarked psükhari are not damned. We don't know why some would be damned and others not. It might be the presumption to speak with the God's voice, meaning that the Cish would be damned even though they don't damage the onta.

Thanks, Wrath -- that's a good critique. I think that I am working along the analogy: Sorcery : Psükhe :: deformity : beauty :: damnation : salvation

By "deformity : beauty" I mean how the products of the spell are perceived by the Few.

As awesome as Meppa's power had been--there was no doubting he was a Primary--it had been the beauty that had most astounded, and mortified, the Second Negotiant.

To be a sorcerer was to dwell among deformities.

"It is extraordinary," Malowebi admitted, "to see the Work without the Mark." He smiled the wise and slippery smile of an old diplomat. "But we Schoolmen are accustomed to miracles."

(WLW, ch.5, pp.150-151)

Does deformity : beauty correspond to damnation : salvation? And precisely how does speaking the God's words / in the God's voice enter into this? I need to do some more research.

[Armitage]

Another great find. I remember that passage and how Malo was amazed by the beauty of it, but I hadn't made the connection to contrasting it with deformity.

Another little bit to feed my theory that something big is up w/ Fanimry and Water and all that.

Of course this is not conclusive, and the probability that I will look like a spectacular fool remains a very real one.

I agree that the Water is important, possibly pivotal. I'm not yet convinced that Fanimry is essential. Could it be that Fane was right about the Psûkhe but wrong about the Solitary God?

Did you and I discuss this on Madness's board as well?

One more interesting quote, this time on blindness and sorcery:

“Shhhh, Iyokus. Do you remember what it is to see?”

A shudder passed through the addict’s form. The translucent head rolled in a drunken nod. Blood spilled from the linen dressings, traced dark lines across his transparent cheek.

“The words,” Eleäzaras hissed. “Do you remember the words?”

In sorcery, everything depended on the purity of meaning. Who knew what blinding might do?

“Y-yessss.”

“Then you are whole.”

(TTT, ch.3)

[Sci-2]

Maybe Iyokus combines Daimos + Psukhe and becomes the Messiah instead of Kellhus?

[Armitage]

Maybe Iyokus combines Daimos + Psukhe and becomes the Messiah instead of Kellhus?

Perhaps! Or, instead, Mimara.

Kellhus on the Psûkhe (TTT, ch.10, from a much longer didactic passage I'm still parsing):

They sacrifice the subtle articulations of knowledge for the inchoate profundities of intuition. They recall the tone and timbre, the passion, of the God’s voice—to near perfection—even as the meanings that make up true sorcery escape them.

Mimara with the Chorae (TJE,ch.16):

She blinks on the far side of contradiction, her face and shoulders pulled back in a warm wind, a breath, a premonition of summer rain. And she sees it, a point of luminous white, a certainty, shining out from the pit that blackens her grasp. A voice rises, a voice without word or tone, drowsy with compassion, and the light grows and grows, shrinking the abyss to a rind, to the false foil that it is, burning to dust, and the glory, the magnificence, shines forth, radiant, blinding...

And she holds all... In her hand she holds it!

A Tear of God.

We don't know any more about the Judging Eye than does Mimara. Achamian knows something else but has refused to tell her. But if the Judging Eye allows Mimara to hear the God's voice as do the Cishaurim while still keeping her own sight, might it also allow her to bear the Water without blinding herself?

[Darzin]

but as to Fanimry, you could be totally right. The Water is a thing for sure, but perhaps it was a miracle that just happened upon Fane that was actually not any sign of revelation from the Solitary God, and he was just able to convince people that it was.

I do think Fane has been to the outside, his descriptions of the gods eating souls seem somewhat accurate, and Meppa's conversations with Psatma lead me to believe the Cishaurim have a better "sense" of what goes on in the outside then most. Whether this points to the truth of the Solitary God I don't know, maybe the Fanim are wrong about the gods solitariness but still saved anyway.

to bear the Water without blinding herself

This would be interesting, there is a thread, on the forum that shall not be named, that theorizes Mimara is the worlds savior although I forget the exact details.

One I've also thought is that while, Mimara's baby would be stillborn normally because of the Judging Eye, it will be the only baby born alive after the No-God has been summoned, while all others are born stillborn. I don't have metaphysical reason for this, but it seems like a possible way of showing Mimara's significance.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

That was always the impression that I got. Meppa came out of the desert, possibly very recently - isn't there alarm in either TJE or WLW that Fanayal has only recently used Cishaurim? Perhaps he only recently used them (or him, since IIRC it's just Meppa) because he only recently acquired him.

[Sci-2]

Well Meppa is one of our mystery figures. Maithanet was a similar figure who turned out to be Big Moe's other son.

Then we have that one guy who IIRC ends up crossing a sea on a small boat and made into a judge.

Finally we have the Mandate Grandmaster who seems to be akin to Kellhus but I'm guess has been in the Mandate for awhile.

It's possible that Meppa and the other two are remnants of Big Moe's program, or perhaps skin spies. After all, both Meppa and the Grandmaster could be skin spies with souls right?

[Madness]

I agree that the Water is important, possibly pivotal. I'm not yet convinced that Fanimry is essential. Could it be that Fane was right about the Psûkhe but wrong about the Solitary God?

Did you and I discuss this on Madness's board as well?

I'm pretty sure you are thinking of Saccarees & the Dunyain but Meppa is X is obviously relevant ;).

One more thought on Meppa....

Fanayals says to Malo something like "The people say that he was sent by the Solitary God...I say he was sent to me." I feel like that would be an unlikely thing for them to say if he was just one Cishaurim who was always around.

While we cannot say for certain, I think that this suggests that Meppa is not a survivor of Shimeh but rather someone who really did appear after the Fanim civilization was routed.

That was always the impression that I got. Meppa came out of the desert, possibly very recently - isn't there alarm in either TJE or WLW that Fanayal has only recently used Cishaurim? Perhaps he only recently used them (or him, since IIRC it's just Meppa) because he only recently acquired him.

I'll forgo the Dune suggestions that the Meppa is Moenghus - Meppa wandered from the Kyudean Mansion where his father kept him his entire life: Second worldborn son of Moenghus, Fanim Priest (that suggestion comes from lockesnow).

[lokisnow]

Meppa is Gandalf the White, obviously.

[Sci-2]

While it would be near impossible for the Mandate Grandmaster to be a skinspy, why can't Meppa be a skinspy with a soul? Maybe one that actually found God via the Psukhe?

[Sci-2]

Yeah, I don't think Meppa would be a skin-spy. It would mean the Consult had grasped an understanding of the Psukhe which is unlikely.

It's hard to say what the mystery figures - Meppa, Saccarees, and that one Judge on a boat - are. They may not be related to the Dunyain or Consult.

Would Kellhus even trust any Dunyain who might claim to convert? Seems like his best strategy is to destroy Ishual ASAP.

Saccarees himself may be incredibly bright, but it is also possible that Kellhus bargained with the Seswatha within the man as he did with Seswatha-in-Akka. Given the importance of the Mandate, Kellhus might have tutored Saccarees or Seswatha-in-Saccarees on Dunyain reading and manipulation of humans.

The judge on a boat is such a minor reference, it might not be important at all.

[Kalbear]

I'm really confused about how the skin spies got seen and the discussion; in Kellhus and Moës talk, it's said that before moe everything was fine. The consult was confused what happened 20 years ago to fuck up all their spies, but it correlates precisely to Moës arrival. I guess he could have taught the other cish how to recognize the spies at that point.

[Madness]

I love that theory, but the white hair throws it off for me. Now, I suppose there could be an alternative explanation for Meppa having totally white hair, he'd have to be about Maithanet's age and probably slightly younger, and it's hard to picture someone who is around 48 being that way.

I've known individuals to go totally gray/white before twenty-five. Draw of genetics, Trisk? Also, exposure to sunlight (what Bakker offered as rational for Maithanet's skin on Zombie Three Seas was Moenghus continuously sunning his son(s)) causes hair to lighten.

Meppa is Gandalf the White, obviously.

Nah, I'm still waiting for Achamian the White - the grey is due for a whitened, give no sh'zen 'tude.

I'm really confused about how the skin spies got seen and the discussion; in Kellhus and Moës talk, it's said that before moe everything was fine. The consult was confused what happened 20 years ago to fuck up all their spies, but it correlates precisely to Moës arrival. I guess he could have taught the other cish how to recognize the spies at that point.

Do we have textual evidence of twenty years? Either the skin-spies never infiltrated Cishaurim territory and are recognized as soulless by the Third-Sight or Dunyain-recognition?

[wolverine]

Just a quick question. I am at the point in The White-Luck Warrior where the Great Ordeal has just begun slaughtering sranc. This is probably answered somehow in previous books but it has been long enough I don't really remember. What I am wondering is:

What is Kellhus motivation in assembling The Great Ordeal. Does he want to save the world just for the sake of the world? That does no seem very Kellhus like.

EDIT: Sorry for disrupting your Unholy Consult preview, but this was the most current Bakker thread up.

[Sci-2]

EDIT: Sorry for disrupting your Unholy Consult preview, but this was the most current Bakker thread up.

No need to apologize, this is the place for speculations. Right now I think these are the following [major] theories:

1) Kellhus genuinely wants to save mankind. This might be b/c he is a messiah, has deluded himself into thinking he is a prophet, or for someone reason thinks this is the best way to ensure the Dunyain Mission in the long run. Note that him being a messiah is not necessarily contingent on prophecy. He may just have achieved the necessary prerequisites to grasp the God.

2) Kellhus plans to betray the Ordeal and join the Consult. To awaken the No God requires a sacrifice, possibly the cadre of Few that are supposed to fight at Golgotterath. Kellhus has realized his best shot is allying with the Consult and giving them the necessary sacrifice.

3) Kellhus will use the situation at Golgotterath to somehow become a God or begin a path to free mortals from damnation. Some have suggested he'll destroy magic and disenchant the world somehow. He may also just destroy Golgotterath in The Unholy Consult as the greatest threat to this plan, and the last books deal with Kellhus ending magic and damnation.

[sologdin]

4) immanent to dunyain beliefs is that the object of the logos is to become hegel's "self-moving soul," the absolute in its fullness of dialectical development. that dialectical development might only occur through the progressively broader resolution of contradiction in objective material reality. AK first intervened therefore to synthesize the contradiction between inithrism and fanimry in the western three seas, producing thereby a unified ecclesia. he thereafter synthesized the greater three seas geopolitical contradictions between separate polities and a singular religion, producing a unified theocracy. he now seeks to synthesize the contradiction between the three seas theocracy and several items on its margin: the zeumi, the fanim residuals, and agongorea, each involving political and religious problems, with the third item as the most significant.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Pursuant to him angling to become a God is the belief of some (I may be the only one left but we've had spirited debates on the subject in past threads) that souls can influence the Outside via belief. If this is true it is possible further that they can only do this from the Outside. So Kellhus leads a massive army of his most fervent believers intentionally to their deaths in order to create the paradigm in the Outside that he is, in fact, a God. Or the God.