A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up Part 2

[IceFire125]

“Be careful what you wish for, it might come true” happens a lot in ASOIAF, and I’ve been wondering if that applies to Bran’s dream of being a Kingsguard. I think it does, especially if Jon is the king he’s guarding. While Bran isn’t competing in tourneys or doing any of the combat things he dreamed of doing, he is doing quite a few of the duties that Jaime, Barristan, and others say a Kingsguard has (and is likely to keep doing them in future books).

• Defend king from harm or threat. Bran saved Jon at Queenscrown.

Keep the king’s secrets. Bran already has hints of R + L = J. If he doesn’t already, I’m sure he will know the whole story. Also, Bran probably knows of a lot of other secrets ie Jon swapping Dalla and Gilly’s babies.

Give counsel when requested –Bran gave Jon counsel when Jon dreamed of Bran as a tree in ACOK.

Kingsguard can protect other members of the royal if the king wants that. Bran has been an influence in Sansa and Arya’s chapters, so it can be seen as Bran extending Kingsguard protection to them, or Bran helping them is compatible with the king's wishes.

Also I have seen a lot of speculation that Bran wants Theon taken to the weirwood to be sacrificed to save Jon. But even if that isn’t true, I think Bran’s interfering with Theon will turn out to be for Jon’s benefit in some way.

WOW! It makes sense to me, and it's so GRRM!

Yes, we only see 'Kingsguard' in the prism of them wearing armor and white cloaks. Bran (to an extent, Bloodraven) and Ghost, I can see are the old gods' version of the Kingsguard for Jon.

Remember that Barristan is like a white shadow next to Daenerys, a royalty, as is Ghost is like a white shadow next to Jon, the hidden heir to throne.

Barristan is of the Kingsguard formed by men, took the oath in tongues of men.

Ghost is of the Kingsguard formed by the old gods, took a silent oath of being marked as a symbol to the chosen one, Jon.

“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift...”

[IceFire125]

I like this one...

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.” -ADWD Jon II

oh GRRM, you and your subtle and cryptic ways. ^_^

[A Bastard Brother]

This thread was an awesome read. I feel like Jon at the end of this.... I know nothing.

But I have a lot of theories now.

[roxWolfox]

These two things from Jon's final ADWD chapter might be a stretch but what the hell?

When Jon has Mully escort Clydas back to his chambers he says "The night is dark and the paths will be slippery with snow." Is this a hint that Jon is AAR? It echoes the phrase "The night is dark and full of terrors." Jon Snow is the path out of the long night 2.0?

Then on the next page he goes to the Shieldhall. He lists many of the sigils from the shields that used to hang in there. Including wolves and dragons. Is it a survey of the houses he will rule over someday?

The Shieldhall has been abandoned for years. Deprived of its former nobility. Just as Jon has been abandoned by his parents and deprived of the nobility he would have if both of them (or at least Rhaegar) had lived.

The hall itself

At first glance Jon is nothing special. He is a bastard, sent to live out his days freezing his ass off in Night's Watch obscurity. Yet, he is as the thread title says he is a hidden king. A fresh torch. The Shieldhall is where he comes out publicly as a king rather a Night's Watch commander.

Hopefully that post wasn't too incoherent. It's getting late!

ETA: There is fire and blood in this chapter representing his hidden Targ identity. The fire is the fresh torches in the Shieldhall. Afterwards, Jon goes outside to find Wun Wun with the corpse of Patrek. The large amount of blood is mentioned many times. Including "the snow beneath it turning red."

Yep, very stretchy, but enjoyable to read none-the-less. ^_^

[Ice Turtle]

A new one (or an addition to parallel between Jon and Joffrey):

Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. “How would it look?” his sister warned him when the women finally left them. “Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him.”

Jaime ASOS

Joffrey and Jaime look alike. Jaime to the world is Joffrey's uncle and father in truth and he can't treat Joffrey as his son, because if people knew the child would die.

Jon and Eddard look alike. Ned to the world is Jon's father and uncle in truth and he must claim Jon as his because if people knew the child would die.

An addition to Rhaegar's rubies:

“You better put on something pretty,” Sansa told her. “Septa Mordane said so. We’re traveling in the queen’s wheelhouse with Princess Myrcella today.”

“I’m not,” Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria’s matted grey fur. “Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford.”

“Rubies,” Sansa said, lost. “What rubies?”

Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. “Rhaegar’s rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown.”

Arya AGOT

If we assume that Arya was one to initiate this hunt for rubies (which is rather likely) than she is the only character in novels we see actively searching for the rubies. She is also the one who is trying to reach Jon since the end of the first book. (And she is also trying to catch Balerion, cat called "the black bastard" and "the true king in the castle" in the same time)

The last bit about Tyrion, Jon (and Ghost) and height:

Tyrion scratched the white wolf behind the ears. The red eyes watched him impassively. The beast came up as high as his chest now. Another year, and Tyrion had the gloomy feeling he’d be looking up at him.

Tyrion AGOT

[IceFire125]

A new one (or an addition to parallel between Jon and Joffrey):

Jaime had seen him born, that was true, though more for Cersei than the child. But he had never held him. “How would it look?” his sister warned him when the women finally left them. “Bad enough Joff looks like you without you mooning over him.”

Jaime ASOS

Joffrey and Jaime look alike. Jaime to the world is Joffrey's uncle and father in truth and he can't treat Joffrey as his son, because if people knew the child would die.

Jon and Eddard look alike. Ned to the world is Jon's father and uncle in truth and he must claim Jon as his because if people knew the child would die.

An addition to Rhaegar's rubies:

“You better put on something pretty,” Sansa told her. “Septa Mordane said so. We’re traveling in the queen’s wheelhouse with Princess Myrcella today.”

“I’m not,” Arya said, trying to brush a tangle out of Nymeria’s matted grey fur. “Mycah and I are going to ride upstream and look for rubies at the ford.”

“Rubies,” Sansa said, lost. “What rubies?”

Arya gave her a look like she was so stupid. “Rhaegar’s rubies. This is where King Robert killed him and won the crown.”

Arya AGOT

If we assume that Arya was one to initiate this hunt for rubies (which is rather likely) than she is the only character in novels we see actively searching for the rubies. She is also the one who is trying to reach Jon since the end of the first book. (And she is also trying to catch Balerion, cat called "the black bastard" and "the true king in the castle" in the same time)

The last bit about Tyrion, Jon (and Ghost) and height:

Tyrion scratched the white wolf behind the ears. The red eyes watched him impassively. The beast came up as high as his chest now. Another year, and Tyrion had the gloomy feeling he’d be looking up at him.

Tyrion AGOT

Nice find! It goes along quite well with this epic quote about princes and bastards.

“Why aren’t you down in the yard?” Arya asked him.

He gave her a half smile. “Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes,” he said. “Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords.”

And with this parallel quote from Sansa of Joffrey laughing at court and Jon laughing with his men, and culminates with Selmy's.

He (Joffrey) laughed … and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him.

Jon laughed, laughed like a drunk or a madman, and his men laughed with him.

He (Selmy) had spent the best part of his own life obeying the commands of drunkards and madmen.

[Julia H.]

Great thread with some wonderful observations!

I think this gives us a connection between Melisandre, Ghost and Jon. What else is deep red, like rubies? Blood. What kind of blood does Melisandre harp on and on about? King's blood. What is steaming - smoking - as it runs from Jon's stab wounds? Blood. King's blood.

King's blood is mentioned about a thousand times by Mel, and the extreme power it contains. If R+L=J is true, she will have the purest K B there is. What power it possesses I don't know, but it's the biggest cliffhanger ever. Thoros is a huge hint here. He's bringing Lord Beric back, as a servant of R'hllor, so we know that Red Priests/Priestesses can restore life to the slain.

Also, when Jon was born, the snow-white cloaks of the KG laid down their lives for him. Ghost is snow-white and ever vigilant in guarding Jon, loyal. Jon is to be reborn, with a white guardian, with his Kingsguard. I think this parallel is much overlooked!

KG Ghost?

Oh Brynden, you... *glomp*

Another quote related to the idea of Ghost the Kingsguard (from the description of the Kingsguard and Rhaegar in Jaime's weirwood dream):

They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof.

<snip>

They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders.

<snip>

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound.

<snip>

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

<snip>

Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

The members of the Kingsguard appear as ghosts here, armored in snow. Even though they do speak, the silence of their movements is emphasized. The Kingsguard being ghosts is a nice parallel to Ghost being the Kingsguard.

In the same scene, Rhaegar is described using the Targaryen colours and white, the colour of snow, when he mentions his wife and children.

[DSB]

all the 'waiting/hoping/wishing' for a targ statements would have to be made by those who had something to expect of a positive nature by the discovery.

would the brother on the island's lot really improve, more importantly would the lot of those he claims to care for improve, with any targ descendants discovery?

were the general populace better off under a peaceful targ rule than a peaceful baratheon rule?

and as for jons 'no matter how many swords they give me' remark, i think it refers to the many swords that made/make the iron throne, the they being whoever has the power to give them/seat him upon it.

he will refuse the iron throne, just as he refused winterfell. arguably with greater ease, having never even (guiltily) dreamed of ruling westeros.

[LmL]

Wow what a great thread. Too many good insights to quote each and say WOW! But on behalf of everyone... Wow! Great teamwork here.

[darkdude103]

If rheago is counted why arent any of aerys and rheallas stillborns counted

[Jô Maltese]

If rheago is counted why arent any of aerys and rheallas stillborns counted

This ^^ :agree:. Rhaego does not count as a "ruby". The 7th (or 6th if Jon is number 7) is Tyrion IMO.

[J. Stargaryen]

If rheago is counted why arent any of aerys and rheallas stillborns counted

He probably doesn't. It's probably:

1. Aerys

2. Rhaella

3. Viserys

4. Rhaenys

5. Aegon

6. Daenerys

7. Jon

Rhaegar's rubies = Rhaegar's blood = Rhaegar's family, which is why he isn't a part of the list either.

[IceFire125]

From Clash:

Her (Gilly) fear was plain on her face. “You will come back, though. When your warring’s done, you’ll pass this way again.”

“We may.” If any of us still live. “That’s for the Old Bear to say, the one you call the Lord Crow. I’m only his squire. I do not choose the road I ride.”

“No.” He could hear the defeat in her voice. “Sorry to be of trouble, m’lord. I only … they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought …”

...

Jon watched her go, his joy in the morning’s brittle beauty gone. Damn her, he thought resentfully, and damn Sam twice for sending her to me. What did he think I could do for her? We’re here to fight wildlings, not save them.

From Dance:

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?”

Bowen Marsh opened his mouth. No words came out. A flush crept up his neck.

...

“Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers. The Wall is where we stop them. The Wall was made to stop them … but the Wall must be manned. This discussion is at an end. We have much to do before the gate is opened. Tormund and his people will need to be fed and clothed and housed. Some are sick and will need nursing. Those will fall to you, Clydas. Save as many as you can.”

Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves? - ASOS, Dany III

[IceFire125]

From Clash:

Her (Gilly) breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. “They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground.

**Gilly bend the knee to Jon twice, this one and the time before Jon sent her and her baby with Sam and Maester Aemon to Oldtown.

[IceFire125]

Kings protects the weak, involve with inheritance, marriage pacts and participate in the ceremony? ^_^

“Why not the king? Karhold declared for Stannis.”

“My uncle declared for Stannis, in hopes it might provoke the Lannisters to take poor Harry’s head. Should my brother die, Karhold should pass to me, but my uncles want my birthright for their own. Once Cregan gets a child by me they won’t need me anymore. He’s buried two wives already.” She rubbed away a tear angrily, the way Arya might have done it. “Will you help me?”

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady. I will write to Stannis on your behalf, but—”

Alys Karstark laughed, but it was the laughter of despair. “Write, but do not look for a reply. Stannis will be dead before he gets your message. My uncle will see to that.”

“Arnolf is rushing to Winterfell, ’tis true, but only so he might put his dagger in your king’s back... Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.” Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

“All praise R’hllor, the Lord of Light,” the wedding guests answered in ragged chorus before a gust of ice-cold wind blew their words away. Jon Snow raised the hood of his cloak.

...

Alys Karstark leaned close to Jon. “Snow during a wedding means a cold marriage. My lady mother always said so.”

...

Alys Karstark slipped her arm through Jon’s. “How much longer, Lord Snow? If I’m to be buried beneath this snow, I’d like to die a woman wed.”

“Soon, my lady,” Jon assured her. “Soon.”

...

Jon turned to Alys Karstark. “My lady. Are you ready?”

“Yes. Oh, yes.”

“You’re not scared?”

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

“Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.

“Who brings this woman to be wed?” asked Melisandre.

“I do,” said Jon. “Now comes Alys of House Karstark, a woman grown and flowered, of noble blood and birth.” He gave her hand one last squeeze and stepped back to join the others.

...

“Two went into the flames.” A gust of wind lifted the red woman’s scarlet skirts till she pressed them down again. “One emerges.” Her coppery hair danced about her head. “What fire joins, none may put asunder.”

“What fire joins, none may put asunder,” came the echo, from queen’s men and Thenns and even a few of the black brothers.

Except for kings and uncles, thought Jon Snow.

...

“Will my lord be feasting with us?” Mully asked Jon Snow.

“Shortly.” Sigorn might take it as a slight if he did not appear. And this marriage is mine own work, after all.

...

“You are no guest of mine. You came to the Wall without my leave, armed, to carry off your niece against her will. Lady Alys was given bread and salt. She is a guest. You are a prisoner.” Jon let that hang for a moment, then said, “Your niece is wed.”

Cregan Karstark’s lips skinned back from his teeth. “Alys was promised to me.”

...

“My lord father—”

“Your father is a castellan, not a lord. And a castellan has no right to make marriage pacts.”

[IceFire125]

If Martin goes the way that I think he would once Jon becomes King, I think Martin will have Jon championing the Old Gods at the cost of slighting The Faith. It would be very Martin-esque, that once The Faith blessed him as the King after the Great Council elect him, he will cause a shake in the kingdom and make the Old Gods an official religion of his monarchy. It would be a mild, yet twisted version of Baelor The Blessed, once Jon decreed, with the help from the CoTF, to magically plant weirwoods in all of the southern kingdoms. That if the people so chooses, they could worship the old gods like the First Men did.

All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do …

… was forswear his vows again.

And this time it would not be a ruse. To claim his father’s castle, he must turn against his father’s gods.

This of course if Jon still have all of his true self with him after everything that he will go through. I'm kind of scared, that after the possibility of losing Ghost (as part of his resurrection/reborn ritual), he may lose his connection with the old gods. I hope that's not the case.

Jon will institute a judicial system, mixing some from The Faith and the old ways of the First Men. Jon will not have paid executioner once someone is condemned to die. He will decree that whoever passes judgment will swing the sword.

I think Jon will not be a popular king after this. He will be seen as a savage ruler, but at the same time, be respected as one as a true king of justice.

“Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can’t protect themselves?”

“Some kings make themselves. Robert did.”

“He was no true king,” Dany said scornfully. “He did no justice. Justice … that’s what kings are for.”

He put a hand on Bran’s shoulder, and Bran looked over at his bastard brother. “You did well,” Jon told him solemnly. Jon was fourteen, an old hand at justice.

Maybe Martin will have as a last eye-opening-WTF! moment for the readers. That at the end of A Dream of Spring, a last scene of seeing Jon in front of the courtyard of his castle, at the base of the Heart Tree, slitting the throat of a man, as he recites some words for the sacrifice. Just as the opening chapter of A Game of Thrones were bloody and gruesome, Martin will end A Dream of Spring with as equally as that and force his readers to not look away, like Bran.

[Fire Eater]

His Grace gave the babe a pearl ring off his finger to play with, and told the twins the story of how their great-great-grandsire and namesake Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs. 

 

Remind anyone of someone who led a fight against a vast host of wildlings, giants and wargs at the Wall, and whose name also begins with "J?"  

[norwaywolf123]

On 8.5.2014 at 0:56 PM, Mithras said:

It is not clear how exactly Egg ascended to the throne but Aemon was involved in the process and probably he plotted to make Egg the king. Though he was a sworn maester, he might have felt that it was necessary "for the greater good".

 

 

 

 

Many Jon-fans are trying hard to figure out a way to free Jon from his oaths. I think such attempts are nonsense. Jon swore his vows and as a true man of the NW, his primary allegiance is to the Realm. For the greater good of the Realm, if there is no better way, he sure can wear a crown, take a wife, hold lands and father children.

 

 

 

 

 

I think Jon will declare himself a Targaryen but he will not forsake his vows whether he dies and somehow returns to life or not. Nor the fall of the Wall and/or the abolishment of the NW might release him from his vows.

 

 

 

 

 

I think Jon will ascend to the throne by the decision of a Great Council similar to Egg. After the LN ends and all of the previous claimants die, a Great Council will be gathered and propose the crown to Jon. And he will accept it because in the other case sooner or later some pretenders will appear and play the Game of Thrones again. This is certainly no good for the rebuilding of the Wall and the NW along with it. People need to prepare their defenses against the threat of the Others again. This duty falls on Jon and as a LC, he does not have the resources or the power to do this.

 

 

 

 

 

I think Sam will play games behind the doors to arrange this Great Council and make Jon the king. Although as a sworn maester and a brother of the NW, he will do this for the greater good, just like Aemon did back then. Sam successfully installed Jon as the LC. By the end of ADoS, he will have enough skills to install him as the king.

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore, Sam will be the ultimate Kingmaker.

 

 

 

 

 

I think coronation of Jon will happen in Harrenhal, where he will take seat as the KL will be burned by that time. Even the Green Men will come. The curse of Harrenhal will be cleansed.

 

There are plenty of potential heirs, Aegon the unlikelys sisters both married and had children, and his niece vaella we dont know what happened too.

Jon will not be king. And he will never father a child. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

30 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

There are plenty of potential heirs, Aegon the unlikelys sisters both married and had children, and his niece vaella we dont know what happened too.

And what this has to do with Jon? As far as I understand this thread is about Jon not every potential Targ heir.

30 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Jon will not be king. And he will never father a child. 

Do you actually have any quote from the books to support your claim? Not that I am expecting anything, I am just asking.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The OP is pretty open, since it asks for foreshadowing of Jon as "king" or "hero." I don't think there's much doubt that our special snowflake is the "hero," since his is the song of ice and fire and all. And if Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar, that would give him a claim, but not necessarily a recognized crown. 

I wish the thread had been limited to foreshadowing for Jon being crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms. But then, I'm jumping in here awfully late.