[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Garlan Marius]

And the viewer should trust everything Margaery says amirite?

It's just treating the viewers as stupid to assume that they just accept Tyrion as a "good guy". And if they are stupid enough, they'll be in for a nice few surprises next season anyway.

Margaery voiced the same concerns the anti-Sansites on here have said about their marriage. "He's so nice to you," "he's the best Lannister," etc. That was frustrating that those opinions became part of the show canon.

What "surprises?" They aren't going to use Singer Stew, we'll know he doesn't kill his nephew, and his father is enough of a villain that kinslaying won't be seen as a "big deal." He'll maintain his whitewashing as long as the writers can manage it.

[Lady Lea]

And the viewer should trust everything Margaery says amirite?

It's just treating the viewers as stupid to assume that they just accept Tyrion as a "good guy". And if they are stupid enough, they'll be in for a nice few surprises next season anyway.

or will they?

They already cut everything bad Tyrion has done so far.

[Dr. Pepper]

And the viewer should trust everything Margaery says amirite?

It's just treating the viewers as stupid to assume that they just accept Tyrion as a "good guy". And if they are stupid enough, they'll be in for a nice few surprises next season anyway.

The thing is, they've only shown Tyrion as the good guy. He hasn't has his bad guy moments like he did in the books. The worst thing he's done in the show has been the slap Joffrey (and that doesn't exactly upset the audience) and keep silent about the incest and who pushed Bran.

[teemo]

Serious question...has Tyrion done anything in the series to date that makes him morally ambiguous rather than a hero?

[Ser_Patreck]

The thing is, they've only shown Tyrion as the good guy. He hasn't has his bad guy moments like he did in the books. The worst thing he's done in the show has been the slap Joffrey (and that doesn't exactly upset the audience) and keep silent about the incest and who pushed Bran.

They've also shifted all of Cersei's (alleged, I concede) misdeeds to Joffrey. The bastard slaughter, ordering Tyrion's death... They are kinda dubious in the books, but in the shows, it's all Joffrey, and Cersei is just one more of his victims. They also made Tywin some sort of great dad who sits with his child to teach him letters when even the maesters have washed their hands of him.

The point is - All of the Lannisters are whitewashed to some point in this series. Tyrion more than others, yeah. But I abandoned any hope for book-faithfulness back then in early season 2.

[Garlan Marius]

Serious question...has Tyrion done anything in the series to date that makes him morally ambiguous rather than a hero?

He frequents brothels and drinks a lot. I guess he's about as morally ambiguous as a typical frat bro.

[Dr. Pepper]

They've also shifted all of Cersei's (alleged, I concede) misdeeds to Joffrey. The bastard slaughter, ordering Tyrion's death... They are kinda dubious in the books, but in the shows, it's all Joffrey, and Cersei is just one more of his victims. They also made Tywin some sort of great dad who sits with his child to teach him letters when even the maesters have washed their hands of him.

The point is - All of the Lannisters are whitewashed to some point in this series. Tyrion more than others, yeah. But I abandoned any hope for book-faithfulness back then in early season 2.

That's what I mean when I say that it's the characters around Sansa that upset me when it comes to Sansa. She is made to look bad because they are all whitewashed. Save for Joffrey. He's been given a villain mustache, basically.

[Minsc]

Serious question...has Tyrion done anything in the series to date that makes him morally ambiguous rather than a hero?

He is not nice to Lancel is the only answer I have ever really received regarding this question.

[Winter's Knight]

Clearly D&D are TySan shippers. Ugh.

[Naathi Prince]

I knew they were going to have Sansa kneel when they had Tyrion ask her to out loud. Also they started with the stool already there and Joffrey taking it away, making it literally impossible otherwise.

I also agree with those who have said that show Tyrion is just too likeable for that to have worked without people hating Sansa more. Its a shame, really, I'm sure all these bros who hate Sansa and love Tyrion would be thrilled to marry a woman who is usually drunk, noseless, and a dwarf all at the same time.

[Zman1863]

I didn't particularly love or hate the wedding/wedding night scenes.

I thought the pre-ceremony Sansa/Tyrion scene was unnecessary. They could have used some of that time to preserve some of the dialogue that occurs in the wedding night scene, which I thought could have preserved without her having to get naked and risk legal complications.

The cloak exchange has none of the weight it did in the book, but its yet another Sansa scene that depends so much on her inner thoughts for it to have its gravity. It's outwardly a scene that does make the reader sympathetic for Tyrion's feelings. But it's a lot harder to convey why the scene is important for her without doing what many fear, and making her look like an anti dwarf bitch. At least they shortened the moment so that wouldn't be all that came through. I just don't see how they could have done that scene full justice. I would be interested to see ideas on how it could have been done.

I was struck by how Tyrion was quite intoxicated in the scenes. I didn't see him as so inebriated in the books. I personally thought it was bit over the top and took away from the dialogue.

He frequents brothels and drinks a lot. I guess he's about as morally ambiguous as a typical frat bro.

Yeah and I think there might be a tendency to ignore those failings as minor vices.

He is not nice to Lancel is the only answer I have ever really received regarding this question.

Yup, that was me. It was threats and blackmail and cousin incest condoning in order to have a spy on his sister. "Not nice" is a bit tame to describe that. But yes, it I agree that its about the only act in the show besides the general intemperance and whoring that shows a dark side.

[Dr. Pepper]

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I can agree with this to an extent. She's a bit more fleshed out than she was at this point in the books. The thing is, if they are going to make these changes and adjustments for characters like Cersei or Tyrion or Tywin, it would make sense to adjust other characters as well, like Sansa. One feels sorry for Sansa having to marry a Lannister, but not sorry that Sansa has to marry Tyrion because Tyrion is so nice and friendly.

It's hard to explain and I'm sure someone else can do it better, but it's just not working for me. I don't feel horror for Sansa the way I did in the books. I am by no means a book purist, this is my first purist moment. But not adjusting Sansa along with the other characters is just infuriating me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

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bookCersei does have a soul, she deeply cares about her children and Jaime and the thought of losing them frightens her. The contrast of her character is how she treats everybody else and how she doesn't care. For example, she told Sansa that she would drag her to her wedding if needed: by doing that in the show, she would be seen as a real evil bitch mistreating poor Sansa.

[Naathi Prince]

Serious question...has Tyrion done anything in the series to date that makes him morally ambiguous rather than a hero?

Not at all, they even removed him breaking Marillion's fingers on purpose and for no reason other than malice.

[kephv]

Giving Tywin and Cersei each a soul doesn't mean they've been white washed, it just makes them more interesting.

I disagree. The complete whitewashing of Tyrion has made him a lot less complex, a bit dull, and a lot more predictable (for one, It's easier to guess what he'll do next because it certainly isn't going to be anything morally questionable - always he'll be the white knight).

[RedBean]

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Yeah, but removing every bad thing Tyrion has done, and then having a completely unrelated character gush about how handsome and kind and "experienced" (because all men who have sex with whores are perfect lovers, apparently) he is definitely counts as whitewashing. Tywin at least got back into character in Season 3. Cersei was horrible in season 1. Tyrion, on the other hand, has remained the golden boy of GoT for all three seasons.

Wow, six new replies as I typed this. This is quickly becoming one of the most popular threads for this episode.

[Ser_Patreck]

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They had souls, Dark, twisted ones, but they were there. Making Cersei shift uncomfortably every time Tyrion confronts her about Joffrey's latest mischief isn't making Cersei more interesting - It's whitewashing her. Making Tywin a decent sorta dad demeans his entire character.

YMMV, I guess.

[Minsc]

Yeah and I think there might be a tendency to ignore those failings as minor vices.....the general intemperance and whoring that shows a dark side.

I would argue that show doesn't try to play up his drinking and whoring as vices seeing how we don't see any negative responses to those acts. Moreover, it is not like they portray him similar to Robert who was drunk all the time and had a ton of bastards from his whoring.

[shiola]

Sansa is one of my favorite book characters. I haven't seen the episode yet, but having her kneel doesn't seem like such a big deal to me. It would've been hard to get the complexity of it A. without narration, B. given the show's handling of Tyrion, and C. given the show's handling of Sansa. So, in the context of the TV series' characterization, I think the change makes sense on paper. Like I said, I've yet to see it.

[Naathi Prince]

They had souls, Dark, twisted ones, but they were there. Making Cersei shift uncomfortably every time Tyrion confronts her about Joffrey's latest mischief isn't making Cersei more interesting - It's whitewashing her. Making Tywin a decent sorta dad demeans his entire character.

YMMV, I guess.

Tywin is a person without moral compunction in the books, but he is portrayed as genuinely wanting his children to be the best they could possibly be, especially Jaime.