[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa II

[Garlan Marius]

The cloak exchange has none of the weight it did in the book, but its yet another Sansa scene that depends so much on her inner thoughts for it to have its gravity. It's outwardly a scene that does make the reader sympathetic for Tyrion's feelings. But it's a lot harder to convey why the scene is important for her without doing what many fear, and making her look like an anti dwarf bitch. At least they shortened the moment so that wouldn't be all that came through. I just don't see how they could have done that scene full justice. I would be interested to see ideas on how it could have been done.

The septon made it clear that it symbolized Tyrion's ability to protect her. He can't do that, and that was a huge part of the scene in the book. The other part was the change-in-family, which definitely should have been played up more. She hates him because he's a Lannister, not because he's a dwarf.

[Lady Lea]

Clearly D&D are TySan shippers. Ugh.

No surprises there...

[shiola]

He is not nice to Lancel is the only answer I have ever really received regarding this question.

And even then, my friends thought it was funny when he manipulated Lancel. Sigh.

[ebevan91]

No surprises there...

Well, for all we know they could still be married by the end of the series.

[Ser_Patreck]

Tywin is a person without moral compunction in the books, but he is portrayed as genuinely wanting his children to be the best they could possibly be, especially Jaime.

Nope, he's portrayed as wanting his children to be the best he wants them to be.

Some of that is slipping through this season. The ones before, tough, he was all "great, if a bit ruthless, patriarch".

[Minsc]

And even then, my friends thought it was funny when he manipulated Lancel. Sigh.

That is thing we only see Tyrion act un-nice to characters viewers already dislike and it is portrayed as not that big of a deal.

[Lord Damian]

I am actually greatful that they did not let Tyrion bang her on the tv show. . Sophie is a pretty good Sansa. Lets face it, Sansa is/was a little prat but is sympathetic later on. Tv makes Tyrion look more handsome than book Tyrion. In the Books, Tyrion is grotesque, even before the scar.

[Garlan Marius]

I would argue that show doesn't try to play up his drinking and whoring as vices seeing how we don't see any negative responses to those acts. Moreover, it is not like they portray him similar to Robert who was drunk all the time and had a ton of bastards from his whoring.

I would argue that there's nothing inherently wrong with drinking or having sex with prostitutes. Self-determination, and all. Show world should have some negative reactions to his behavior from someone other than Tywin, who is made out to be a villain, anyway.

[Naathi Prince]

Nope, he's portrayed as wanting his children to be the best he wants them to be.

Some of that is slipping through this season. The ones before, tough, he was all "great, if a bit ruthless, patriarch".

In fairness, he wants Jaime to be more serious, Cersei to try less hard, and Tyrion to stop whoring and drinking so much. Are any of those things bad ideas? The problem with Tywin has always been in the means and methods he has used, not necessarily in the ends he desires.

[Minsc]

I would argue that there's nothing inherently wrong with drinking or having sex with prostitutes. Self-determination, and all. Show world should have some negative reactions to his behavior from someone other than Tywin, who is made out to be a villain, anyway.

I am not saying that I disagree with those activities either, only saying that show doesn't portray them as being negative thus they hardly grey up Tyrion by his doing them. Especially, when they could go the Robert route and show how self-destructive those acts can be.

[shiola]

I am actually greatful that they did not let Tyrion bang her on the tv show. . Sophie is a pretty good Sansa. Lets face it, Sansa is/was a little prat but is sympathetic later on. Tv makes Tyrion look more handsome than book Tyrion. In the Books, Tyrion is grotesque, even before the scar.

Why would he have had sex with her on the show in the first place, when he doesn't consummate the marriage in the books either? I mean, was anyone actually worried it would happen?

[Dr. Pepper]

Here's another of my problems with the wedding. So much of it was about Cersei resisting the things going on around her instead of Sansa doing this. Cersei is the Queen Regent, Sansa is a hostage but you'd hardly remember that in this episode. What happened to the Sansa who told Joffrey that maybe her brother would bring her his head or the Sansa who wanted to push Joffrey off the ledge? We've seen Sansa cry about this marriage and we've seen her talk about how he's a dwarf. But she's still a hostage to a family who killed her father and is warring against her brother. It's nice to see Cersei sharing barbs with Marg and Loras, but not at the expense of Sansa just going along meekly with all of this and not once quietly protesting.

[Lehnaru]

I'm pretty upset that they made Sansa kneel, though I'm sadly not surprised. They've set her character development back quite a bit.

[Garlan Marius]

I am not saying that I disagree with those activities either, only saying that show doesn't portray them as being negative thus they hardly grey up Tyrion by his doing them. Especially, when they could go the Robert route and show how self-destructive those acts can be.

I'm glad we had him fully drunk in this episode, at least. Tyrion definitely is destroyed by drink, if ADWD is any indication. Considering that the show glorifies prostitution (Littlefinger the master pimp) and has some minimum requirement for plot-unrelated nude scenes, that's never going to be seen as bad.

[Hedge Lawyer]

I'm pretty upset that they made Sansa kneel, though I'm sadly not surprised. They've set her character development back quite a bit.

Sansa knelt in the book, too, but for the kiss. The show just cut out the standing on Dontos part and the kiss, having her eventually kneel for the cloak ceremony (after the crowd started laughing at Tyrion).

In the book: "When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness. She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why would he have had sex with her on the show in the first place, when he doesn't consummate the marriage in the books either? I mean, was anyone actually worried it would happen?

People who didn't read the books maybe.

He doesn't have sex with her though, but she goes as far as take off her clothes and get on the bed, with Tyrion next to her. IICR, Tyrion does watch her naked. Now, he stopped her at time.

[Lady Lea]

People who didn't read the books maybe.

He doesn't have sex with her though, but she goes as far as take off her clothes and get on the bed, with Tyrion next to her. IICR, Tyrion does watch her naked. Now, he stopped her at time.

he fondled her naked breasts too

[brashcandy]

Here's another of my problems with the wedding. So much of it was about Cersei resisting the things going on around her instead of Sansa doing this. Cersei is the Queen Regent, Sansa is a hostage but you'd hardly remember that in this episode. What happened to the Sansa who told Joffrey that maybe her brother would bring her his head or the Sansa who wanted to push Joffrey off the ledge? We've seen Sansa cry about this marriage and we've seen her talk about how he's a dwarf. But she's still a hostage to a family who killed her father and is warring against her brother. It's nice to see Cersei sharing barbs with Marg and Loras, but not at the expense of Sansa just going along meekly with all of this and not once quietly protesting.

Yes, her resistance could and should have been fleshed out more. I thought they were setting this up when she asks to be excused and gets up from the table, but instead they shuffle her off to have some conversation with Varys (at least that's what it looked like) and then Joffrey threatens her on the way back. Frustrating indeed, but given the incredible whitewashing of Tyrion, not surprising. I'm happy for the small things: her telling Tyrion that he can't understand how she feels, and later on when she makes clear she may never want to sleep with him.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Ok, it's not so much Sansa that bothers me. It's the characters around her. She never would have kneeled, but there also wasn't a stool that was taken away moments before. There is so much Tyrion whitewashing going on.

I don't really have any cohorent comments. I just found myself becoming a book purists for the very first time. The entire wedding just rubbed me the wrong way.

The wedding itself didnt bother me, it was the fact she knelt that really pissed me off. The whitewashing of Tyrion only mildly bothered me but now im pretty angry. It took away Sansa's silent defiance and man...most unhappy. Im usually pretty chill with changes even big ones, but this really small change was a really big one for me. I did NOT like it and and was ready to flip tables. Otherwise, i feel her characterization is going fine. She showed a lot of strength in the bedroom scene, but it doesnt make up for the kneeling. If it hadnt been for that seemingly minor change, the wedding itself would have been spectacular.

[wolverine]

he fondled her naked breasts too

Yeah, he was much more a perv in the books as she was just laying there naked shivering and he was more than ready to do the deed, but realized how weird it was.