Why do people think that Sansa will marry Aegon?

[brashcandy]

Here is my futile and purposeless response:

Why does Sandor, to the exclusion of everything else and out of all the things Sansa wants, have to represent her choice? Why is this relationship (with a man) used to highlight agency?

My answer to that is why not? You seem to be the one who's insisting on portraying it as a negative thing somehow, but let's make clear that this is your view, and nothing inherent to the relationship Martin has depicted in his novels. The underlying theme in Sansa's arc has been the quest for agency, and it's the author - not myself or anyone else who shares this view - that has explored this theme predominantly through Sansa's relationships with different male characters. It's Martin who tells us that Sansa wants to be loved for herself, and that she finds her claim to be restrictive.

It seems like a compulsive need in our culture to always have a romantic lead for every female protagonist, regardless of whether the story warrants it. Framing Sansa's agency in terms of Sandor just seems to be giving into and even encouraging that.

Again, you're twisting my words and trying to suggest something that I never endorsed. There is textual evidence, and lots of it, which shows Sansa and Sandor developing romantic feelings for each other, and Martin has placed it there to be recognized and critically appreciated. Are you suggesting that we ignore this because of a cultural custom you find bothersome and problematic? Personally, what I find bothersome is the societal perspective that women's desires don't count, and that they are just there to act as prizes for men - something which Martin directly confronts and questions through Sansa's experiences.

Also, why is her desire to go home not 'legitimate'? Littlefinger and Dontos didn't place that desire there. Littlefinger is attempting to use and manipulate it, but he didn't invent it. Why does him attempting to take advantage invalidate what I would say is her primary motivating desire? It seems defeatist to me and I don't understand.

When did I ever say it was not legitimate?? My point was that she would need to get there on her own terms and not tied to any arranged marriage or other unsavoury conditions. I'd prefer Sansa navigating this path without having to make a deal with the devil, but if you don't see a problem with having one's desires "used and manipulated" by a career criminal and sociopath, then we might as well end the discussion here.

[l3ol3o]

She has a choice. Everyone always has a choice. There are repercussions and consequences following that choice and some of those may not be good. But that doesn't mean that the choice isn't there.

Yes she does in theory but in reality she can easily be put into a situation similar to both Robb and Edmure where they both had a choice yet in reality they really had no choice because of the consequences of saying no would be devastating.

Just look at her current marriage plans now. She is to marry Harry the Heir. She has a choice to marry him or not yet in reality she can't really say no.

Her best bet for controlling who she marries would be for her to become Lady of Winterfell. Even then her choices will be limited. She has to marry someone of similar birth and someone who is ok with their children being Starks, not her husbands Dynasty. This makes her choices very limited. Even if she is Lady of Winterfell there is still the Stannis problem. Just like he wanted Jon to marry Val he would probably put conditions on who Sansa must marry.

In theory we have a choice in just about everything we do but theory and reality are much different. When it comes to marriage in the world of ASOIAF both men and women have very little choice with women having even less then men.

[greensleeves]

My original reply was eaten by the server.

My answer to that is why not? You seem to be the one who's insisting on portraying it as a negative thing somehow, but let's make clear that this is your view, and nothing inherent to the relationship Martin has depicted in his novels. The underlying theme in Sansa's arc has been the quest for agency, and it's the author - not myself or anyone else who shares this view - that has explored this theme predominantly through Sansa's relationships with different male characters. It's Martin who tells us that Sansa wants to be loved for herself, and that she finds her claim to be restrictive.

I am not trying to portray the Sansan relationship or anything from the novels in a negative light. I am questioning the placement of Sansa's relationship with Sandor as the primary lense through which we judge her agency. That's something that's done on this board; not in the novels.

This is a bit unrelated, but I still don't know where Martin tells us that she finds her claim restrictive. Yes, she doesn't want to be used for her claim, but that's not the same thing.

Again, you're twisting my words and trying to suggest something that I never endorsed. There is textual evidence, and lots of it, which shows Sansa and Sandor developing romantic feelings for each other, and Martin has placed it there to be recognized and critically appreciated. Are you suggesting that we ignore this because of a cultural custom you find bothersome and problematic? Personally, what I find bothersome is the societal perspective that women's desires don't count, and that they are just there to act as prizes for men - something which Martin directly confronts and questions through Sansa's experiences.

As I have repeated ad nauseam, I know that there is textual evidence for Sansan.

... but you know what? There's a lot of other stuff there too. I'm not suggesting we ignore Sansan. I'm suggesting that we don't ignore everything else for its benefit.

I don't know why you brought the bolded part up. I know that its a problem, but there's more than one problem with women's representation in media and society. I'm trying to talk about a slightly different one.

When did I ever say it was not legitimate?? My point was that she would need to get there on her own terms and not tied to any arranged marriage or other unsavoury conditions. I'd prefer Sansa navigating this path without having to make a deal with the devil, but if you don't see a problem with having one's desires "used and manipulated" by a career criminal and sociopath, then we might as well end the discussion here.

Sorry, I inferred that you were implying it was illegitimate when you discredited it for that entire last paragraph and seemingly characterized it as something that only existed within the context of Sansa being misused.

If that's not what you meant with the last paragraph of that post, then I still don't see why we can acknowledge Sansan while she's still in Littlefinger's clutches yet can't acknowledge her desire to go home.

Also, that last sentence is a fine example of some truly grade-A word twisting, brava.

Sorry this is derailing the thread... again.

[Lala]

Yeah, I've know we've had this discussion. All it seems to do is frustrate us. I'm not going to convince you of anything and you're not going to convince me.

Here is my futile and purposeless response:

Why does Sandor, to the exclusion of everything else and out of all the things Sansa wants, have to represent her choice? Why is this relationship (with a man) used to highlight agency?

Sansa's relationship with Sandor isn't what highlights her agency, and I don't think any of us are making the argument that it is - as many of the Rereading Sansa threads point out, it is Sansa's own actions and choices that show her regaining of agency. What SanSan does show, very clearly imo, is what Sansa wants in a romantic partnership. This is coming from someone who did not approve of SanSan until she went back and reread AGoT after seeing the numerous forum posts about it, so keep that in mind! What is important is to examine why Sansa likes The Hound while her feelings towards Tyrion, Loras, LF etc. do not have this element of romantic depth - and I think the key is that The Hound alone has treated her as an individual with agency from the beginning - while this may seem to contradict with his calling her a "pretty little bird, singing what they taught her," it doesn't necessarily - other characters all seem to believe that they know what Sansa wants, at best, or be indifferent to what she wants, at worst. Their interactions with Sansa are all colored with dishonesty - it is The Hound alone who, although sometimes brutally, respects Sansa enough to ask that she face the reality of her situation and the real faces of those around her (including himself - "I am no ser").

In essence, SanSan shows that Sansa wants her romantic partner to see her as more than a pretty little bird and to ask more of her than to be a pretty little bird with a claim to WF.

It seems like a compulsive need in our culture to always have a romantic lead for every female protagonist, regardless of whether the story warrants it. Framing Sansa's agency in terms of Sandor just seems to be giving into and even encouraging that.

Also, why is her desire to go home not 'legitimate'? Littlefinger and Dontos didn't place that desire there. Littlefinger is attempting to use and manipulate it, but he didn't invent it. Why does him attempting to take advantage invalidate what I would say is her primary motivating desire? It seems defeatist to me and I don't understand.

Sansa does want to go home. But what does home mean? It's important to remember that WF is, first and foremost, a place - it is the Stark family and the people around them that make WF a home. This is why LF is unsuccessful in his manipulation of Sansa - he has failed at his own maxim of "knowing what a person wants." LF thinks that Sansa wants WF - but it isn't WF she wants - Sansa wants to go home, meaning she wants to be with her family. To put this in context, when Arya thinks of "home" she does not think of WF, but rather of her pack - her family. It would be erroneous to assume that "home" means any less to Sansa than it does to Arya.

This discussion has taken a turn that makes me realize why I get into trouble sometimes in these discussions. There is such a big difference between those who approach the figures in the books as characters (elements of narrative structure), and those who approach them as people (things with agency). I'm definitely in the former camp - Sansa, Sandor, Aegon, they are all pieces of furniture. Martin is the only one with agency. Not that I don't see the fun of entering the story more fully...but personally I find it more satisfying to tease out how Martin structures his ingeniously constructed tale.

Some of the other people replying to this feed have hit on why it is so satisfying as narrative - in that its grim medieval realism is tempered by serious attention to female characters (fairly hard to find in fantasy and warrior genres, easier to find in historical fiction), and he insists on psychological complexity for most of his characters. Not that Martin is perfect - he definitely sidesteps sexuality and handles sex itself fairly awkwardly - and even, at times, stereotypically. But he is pretty amazing at playing with narrative conventions, and intrigueing the reader by doing so. Sometimes he thwarts the conventions (i.e. son avenges father), sometimes he accentuates them (i.e. foreshadowing events and psychological changes), but in either case he is just moving "furniture" around. I say what I say about Sansa marrying because everything so far has gone to suggest that she will, war-of-roses-like, remain a pawn to the end...but that doesn't mean she might not also emotionally react in a positive way to the marriage, when it comes. That would be nicer to read than a miserable reaction! (But the real history of Elizabeth of York makes me pessimistic on this). Anyway, hopefully it's fun for all of us (meta-narrativers and intra-narrativers alike) most of the time!

I think the flaw in your logic is that you are seeing Sansa as two separate identities - Sansa the character and Sansa the plot-device. Yet, can you really separate the two? Martin wrote Sansa to be who she is for a reason - logically, the reason being her role in moving the plot forward. To suggest that for the sake of the plot Sansa would do something which would negate her character development to date would be to imply that Sansa's entire story up that point has been meaningless. For Sansa to marry Aegon because he would make her a Queen would make her Margaery. For her to marry Aegon because she "should" would make her Dany at the very opening of ASoIaF. For her to marry Aegon because he is charming and handsome would rewind everything that she has been through and become, and toss her right back at square one.

Martin has Sansa grow and develop as a character because of her role in the plot - and so far, Martin gives us ample evidence of the type of character he wants her to transform into - there is no reason to believe that who Sansa becomes and how she motivates the plot (or the type of character she needs to be to motivate the plot) are separable considerations. To see characters as solely furniture, in my opinion, is a very limited method of reading a story, and ignores much of the dynamism that character arcs can bring to a plot.

Rather than furniture, it is much better to see the relationships of characters and the plot as paint on a canvas - as you apply the paint, it intermingles with the canvas and other coats of color, changing its hue and shade, but this change in turn becomes an integral part of the picture.

[greensleeves]

Yes she does in theory but in reality she can easily be put into a situation similar to both Robb and Edmure where they both had a choice yet in reality they really had no choice because of the consequences of saying no would be devastating.

Just look at her current marriage plans now. She is to marry Harry the Heir. She has a choice to marry him or not yet in reality she can't really say no.

Her best bet for controlling who she marries would be for her to become Lady of Winterfell. Even then her choices will be limited. She has to marry someone of similar birth and someone who is ok with their children being Starks, not her husbands Dynasty. This makes her choices very limited. Even if she is Lady of Winterfell there is still the Stannis problem. Just like he wanted Jon to marry Val he would probably put conditions on who Sansa must marry.

In theory we have a choice in just about everything we do but theory and reality are much different. When it comes to marriage in the world of ASOIAF both men and women have very little choice with women having even less then men.

Look at it this way:

In ASOIAF, weddings tend to be more dangerous than battles, and the marriages that follow can be even more treacherous. If the two parties don't enter into the union with compatible long-term goals and a genuine desire to make it work, it will likely end in some serious misery. This is why I characterize Tyrion marrying Sansa by force as his greatest tactical blunder.

Aegon (or whoever is theoretically arranging this) would have to be a fool to not consider Sansa's desires in this hypothetical scenario.

[brashcandy]

I am not trying to portray the Sansan relationship or anything from the novels in a negative light. I am questioning the placement of Sansa's relationship with Sandor as the primary lense through which we judge her agency. That's something that's done on this board; not in the novels.

When we're talking about Sansa's agency, what are we speaking of? Simply put, it's having the ability to make her own life choices and decisions which she finds personally fulfilling. As depicted in the novels by Martin, Sansa's agency has been restricted due to the exploitative plots by others, centred on her eligibility as Winterfell's heiress. Sandor is only the primary lens through which we explore her agency in so far as we're discussing the themes of romance and relationships. He's the one that values her for herself, and the only person she's developed significant romantic feelings towards. So when we look at what happened with Tyrion and others, we're able to contrast the lack of agency she found in those unions versus the one she could potentially have with Sandor, where she reciprocates his feelings.

This is a bit unrelated, but I still don't know where Martin tells us that she finds her claim restrictive. Yes, she doesn't want to be used for her claim, but that's not the same thing.

Sansa, ASOS:

Margaery and Tommen. Sansa did not know what to say. She had liked Margaery Tyrell, and her small sharp grandmother as well. She thought wistfully of Highgarden with its courtyards and musicians, and the pleasure barges on the Mander; a far cry from this bleak shore. At least I am safe here. Joffrey is dead, he cannot hurt me anymore, and I am only a bastard girl now. Alayne Stone has no husband and no claim. And her aunt would soon be here as well. The long nightmare of King’s Landing was behind her, and her mockery of a marriage as well. She could make herself a new home here, just as Petyr said.

The fact that she's willing to make a home on the Fingers would heavily suggest that she finds the claim restrictive.

As I have repeated ad nauseam, I know that there is textual evidence for Sansan.

... but you know what? There's a lot of other stuff there too. I'm not suggesting we ignore Sansan. I'm suggesting that we don't ignore everything else for its benefit.

And no one has done that, and for you to suggest it is ridiculously disingenuous. If people are discussing a topic where the question of Aegon and Sansa is brought up, it's natural that we discuss what Sansa wants - no arranged marriages and to be loved for herself.

I don't know why you brought the bolded part up. I know that its a problem, but there's more than one problem with women's representation in media and society. I'm trying to talk about a slightly different one.

The one you're talking about makes no sense in the context of Sansa's arc: a young girl who is clearly interested in sex, romance and marriage but wants her wishes to be respected. It is Martin who has depicted Sandor as a potential romantic lead for Sansa, not readers.

If that's not what you meant with the last paragraph of that post, then I still don't see why we can acknowledge Sansan while she's still in Littlefinger's clutches yet can't acknowledge her desire to go home.

I have always done so, you're the one who seems to think it's either/or. And I have always stressed that "home" is different from Winterfell and the claim associated with it in Sansa's mind.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Yes she does in theory but in reality she can easily be put into a situation similar to both Robb and Edmure where they both had a choice yet in reality they really had no choice because of the consequences of saying no would be devastating.

Just look at her current marriage plans now. She is to marry Harry the Heir. She has a choice to marry him or not yet in reality she can't really say no.

Her best bet for controlling who she marries would be for her to become Lady of Winterfell. Even then her choices will be limited. She has to marry someone of similar birth and someone who is ok with their children being Starks, not her husbands Dynasty. This makes her choices very limited. Even if she is Lady of Winterfell there is still the Stannis problem. Just like he wanted Jon to marry Val he would probably put conditions on who Sansa must marry.

In theory we have a choice in just about everything we do but theory and reality are much different. When it comes to marriage in the world of ASOIAF both men and women have very little choice with women having even less then men.

See, I disagree. Everyone absolutely (and always) does have a choice (many choices, in fact). They simply have to accept that the consequences of that choice may indeed be devastating. Negative repercussions don't negate the fact that choices are there.

[Le Cygne]

Rather than furniture, it is much better to see the relationships of characters and the plot as paint on a canvas - as you apply the paint, it intermingles with the canvas and other coats of color, changing its hue and shade, but this change in turn becomes an integral part of the picture.

Very well stated.

What is important is to examine why Sansa likes The Hound while her feelings towards Tyrion, Loras, LF etc. do not have this element of romantic depth - and I think the key is that The Hound alone has treated her as an individual with agency from the beginning - while this may seem to contradict with his calling her a "pretty little bird, singing what they taught her," it doesn't necessarily - other characters all seem to believe that they know what Sansa wants, at best, or be indifferent to what she wants, at worst. Their interactions with Sansa are all colored with dishonesty - it is The Hound alone who, although sometimes brutally, respects Sansa enough to ask that she face the reality of her situation and the real faces of those around her (including himself - "I am no ser").

Sandor is only the primary lens through which we judge her agency in so far as we're discussing the themes of romance and relationships. He's the one that values her for herself, and the only person she's developed significant romantic feelings towards. So when we look at what happened with Tyrion and others, we're able to contrast the lack of agency she found in those unions versus the one she could potentially have with Sandor, where she reciprocates his feelings.

What both of you said. That's the way I see it, too. Sansa is a romantic. They'll never take her songs away. And now she's writing her own song, basically, about the way she wants it to be, and she's placed him in the song.

[Lala]

When we're talking about Sansa's agency, what are we speaking of? Simply put, it's having the ability to make her own life choices and decisions which she finds personally fulfilling. As depicted in the novels by Martin, Sansa's agency has been restricted due to the exploitative plots by others, centred on her eligibility as Winterfell's heiress. Sandor is only the primary lens through which we explore her agency in so far as we're discussing the themes of romance and relationships. He's the one that values her for herself, and the only person she's developed significant romantic feelings towards. So when we look at what happened with Tyrion and others, we're able to contrast the lack of agency she found in those unions versus the one she could potentially have with Sandor, where she reciprocates his feelings.

Sansa, ASOS:

The fact that she's willing to make a home on the Fingers would heavily suggest that she finds the claim restrictive.

And no one has done that, and for you to suggest it is ridiculously disingenuous. If people are discussing a topic where the question of Aegon and Sansa is brought up, it's natural that we discuss what Sansa wants - no arranged marriages and to be loved for herself.

The one you're talking about makes no sense in the context of Sansa's arc: a young girl who is clearly interested in sex, romance and marriage but wants her wishes to be respected. It is Martin who has depicted Sandor as a potential romantic lead for Sansa, not readers.

I have always done so, you're the one who seems to think it's either/or. And I have always stressed that "home" is different from Winterfell and the claim associated with it in Sansa's mind.

The bolded part - very much so. When the marriage with Harry is seen as not truly giving Sansa what she wants, I see it in the context of LF not recognizing that Sansa wants her home back, not WF.

Also is the forum giving an error to anyone else? o.o

[greensleeves]

Brashcandy, I highly respect you for your contributions to the forum. I know that I have a temper and can sometimes come off as overly aggressive, but I feel like there's something to be pointed out here. You and some other posters on the PtP thread have a serious SanSan bias. That's not a bad thing, but it should be acknowledged. I think the emphasis put on that relationship can have a reductive effect on Sansa analysis sometimes. The earlier pages of this thread, to me, are an example of that.

Back when Le Cygne was still talking to me, the thread had basically turned into a SanSan defense (The reasoning being that Sansa's feelings for Sandor are somehow the negating factor for any marriage with Aegon). There are reasons for Sansa and Aegon not being a good match that do not revolve around Sandor. Those were being lost, and I think it's problematic when we stop acknowledging a woman's desires that are not connected to a specific man. I don't think that was in any way a conscious decision; when defending a 'ship it's an easy thing to have happen unintentionally.

------------------------------------

Because I can't resist one last parting shot:

You provided a quote about Sansa's claim when she was trying to convince herself to be content with Littlefinger's plans. Here's a later quote from when she's decided to reject plans she's being manipulated into:

I will tell my aunt that I don’t want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. She wasn’t a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell.

Now I'm going to sleep.

[greensleeves]

Sansa does want to go home. But what does home mean? It's important to remember that WF is, first and foremost, a place - it is the Stark family and the people around them that make WF a home. This is why LF is unsuccessful in his manipulation of Sansa - he has failed at his own maxim of "knowing what a person wants." LF thinks that Sansa wants WF - but it isn't WF she wants - Sansa wants to go home, meaning she wants to be with her family. To put this in context, when Arya thinks of "home" she does not think of WF, but rather of her pack - her family. It would be erroneous to assume that "home" means any less to Sansa than it does to Arya.

I mostly agree with this paragraph. Sansa attaches emotional meanings to places. For her true home and family are very much connected to Winterfell. It may be that she eventually finds that feeling somewhere else, but for now it's Winterfell. I agree that this does mirror Arya's quest for a pack. At its heart, this desire is about her family.

Okay, now I'm going to sleep. Really.

[Old-Growth]

I dont see it happening. Aegon - Arianne will probably be proposed, but I dont know if Doran will be swayed. He already suspects Aegon's legitimacy, and he'll probably hold out until news of Dany reaches him. I don't get why people are thinking he'll just flat out go to Aegon and forsake Dany. People talk like it's a forgone conclusion, which isn't the case.

Well for a period of a turn of the moon or so it will be widely believed that Dany is to be presumed dead. The rumors are already flowing out of the siege of Meereen as Victarion discovered from one of the ships he captured. Those rumors will continue to go south and then west until Dany returns to Meereen. Can Jon C. afford the time to gamble on those rumors being wrong? Perhaps Doran should take the deal that will likely be on offer...

[Bonifer Tasty]

Maybe she will wed Willas Tyrell after all...

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

wait, i didnt know people were talking about this, but i think she might

[Woman of War]

Maybe she will wed Willas Tyrell after all...

Not in the show since Willas never showed up there. And so she probably won't in the books either.

[RhaenysBee]

Because it'd be sweet and pink and Disney, I guess...

Though if I must vote for a Disney option, than I'd prefer to see a Beauty and the Beast outcome than this... ehh... Sansa and Aegon... like... Sleeping Beauty? Whatever.

[Newstar]

Maybe she will wed Willas Tyrell after all...

I doubt it, although anything's possible as long as Willas remains alive and in play, I guess.

[The Mother of The Others]

If Sansa drops in status to be with the hound, then in return for that I'd fully expect Arya to finish as Gendry's lady of Storm's End who must learn to deal with all the prim and proper sophisticated B.S. of castle life as best she can while her beloved gently snickers until she brandishes the butter knife at him for a moment before they both break out laughing. Criss cross. One sister's station up, one down. Even Steven.

Also, why is it so often assumed that any political marriage would be contemptible, a railroaded marraige performed against Sansa's will? Woudn't it be much more likely for the author to pay off the Sansa arc by narrating it so that she and you see the silver lining of any marraige and are inspired by it in the end? Why for this character must political alliance betrothals be set aside so that she can soar emotionally to please us by stepping outside the physics of her world? In hard Sci-fi, the tension often comes from the reader wanting physics to not be applied to the character who's in trouble, because we don't want to see the character run out of fuel and get stranded in space. But then we're reminded that these wishes don't matter because physics are very real and so is the stranding. Well, it'll be interesting, however it ends. I don't think we need to be worrying about a horror movie ending where she's trapped in a lousy marraige she detests, though, like some sort of Tyrion II: the Sequel. That seems like an unlikely destination. Whether she ends up rich or poor, hitched or nun or living in sin, she'll be on board with it. You have my word on that.