Bakker の Pacific Rim Job

[Madness]

Not totally sure what you mean there. What exactly equates to the to the Oblivion the Nonemen seek? You mean like it's the same as the Dunyain's concept of The Absolute (which in turn equates to a Monadic awakening of the God through the merging of all souls and consciousness)?

To return to a sub-point I mentioned, I definitely believe that the Nonmen had the right idea, conceptually, about worshipping the spaces between the gods, but I don't think they were necessarily successful. In other words, the Nonmen's religion tells us that there's a good reason to not even bother with the gods (oblivion's better), and by worshipping oblivion they're essentially worshipping the real God

. . .

These two (one?) concepts seem incompatible with Oblivion.

@Madness: Do we know Bakker is still going with that Oblivion/Damnation/Redemption angle? Because we know Inrithi ancestor worship became Zeumi ancestor worship.

I'd guess pleas for ancestor intercession are more prevalent in Zeum than the Inrithi Three-Seas. Though the Kinnuat's polytheistic divisions were respected by the Thousand Temples, official worship was reserved for the God of Gods as abstracted by Inri Sejenus.

Because Kellhus is a lying liar who lies.

+1.

[Sci-2]

Because Kellhus is a lying liar who lies.

And because Cish just seem really cool? ;-)

I'd guess pleas for ancestor intercession are more prevalent in Zeum than the Inrithi Three-Seas. Though the Kinnuat's polytheistic divisions were respected by the Thousand Temples, official worship was reserved for the God of Gods as abstracted by Inri Sejenus.

Fair enough. I just suspect that Bakker's view on Oblivion being something you can choose possibly changed.

Though I actually do think the Nonmen's acceptance of walking into Oblivion had to come from something they at least thought they verified long ago. Either that or this worked until the humans empowered the Hundred and gave them a conduit to influence the relationship between Earwan souls and the afterlife.

I suspect it's possible both Nonmen, Inchies and humans mistakenly associated miracles and visions with proof. I was just reading about not trusting the "hungry ghosts" that communicate with mediums. Now those people of Earth should suspect the medium over a lascivious ghost but in the Earwan case I think it applies.

[Kalbear]

Also recall the prior conversation that we had about Moe and Kellhus (by the way, Sci, WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH YOUR SPELLING OF KELLHUS) and how the narrator writes that Kellhus goes mad.

Textually, Kellhus is flat-out made to be wrong. Moe tells him he's wrong but we get that Kellhus is committed to his cause and has absolute certainty - which we know to be just a means of control. The text says 'Kellhus went mad'. We went through a long talk about how we were discounting the gods intercessions from the first book; why should we discount the actual text when it says things like Kellhus went mad or when people tell Kellhus point blank that he's totally high?

this is ultimately why I've always thought the notion that Kellhus has redefined what damnation was or changed the rules of good and bad. Kellhus is not only a lying liar who lies, the text says that he is wrong. Just flat-out wrong. Heck, we have the image of him being killed in the next book. Do you think he survives?

With Mimara in play, do you think that the story is about Kellhus? Or is he just another figure to show everyone the illusions of certainty and the conviction of ignorance?

[karaddin]

Also recall the prior conversation that we had about Moe and Kellhus (by the way, Sci, WHAT THE FUCK IS UP WITH YOUR SPELLING OF KELLHUS) and how the narrator writes that Kellhus goes mad.

Textually, Kellhus is flat-out made to be wrong. Moe tells him he's wrong but we get that Kellhus is committed to his cause and has absolute certainty - which we know to be just a means of control. The text says 'Kellhus went mad'. We went through a long talk about how we were discounting the gods intercessions from the first book; why should we discount the actual text when it says things like Kellhus went mad or when people tell Kellhus point blank that he's totally high?

this is ultimately why I've always thought the notion that Kellhus has redefined what damnation was or changed the rules of good and bad. Kellhus is not only a lying liar who lies, the text says that he is wrong. Just flat-out wrong. Heck, we have the image of him being killed in the next book. Do you think he survives?

With Mimara in play, do you think that the story is about Kellhus? Or is he just another figure to show everyone the illusions of certainty and the conviction of ignorance?

I've got major issues with this as I just can't see how the WLW can get anywhere near him. The most compelling explanation I've seen is that the Gods are blind to the No-God, so when the NG rises it changes the time line from that outcome, but I'm far from committed to that. Only other explanation would be the WLW getting him after he has teleported back to the empire, but he's just too far away for the WLW to catch him.

[lokisnow]

The question Trisk, is 'why do you desire to question and parse the text, 'and went mad'?'

Why not take it at face value? Hell Kellhus even tells us that telling people the truth is the best way to deceive him. Reams of text have been written by posters who are ardently certain that 'and went mad' is not what it says it is. Those who could not let go of their certainty authored webs of their own deception when given the truth, and the truth became a tool they used to prove their own falsehoods to themselves.

Also, Kellhus doesn't really seem to be in control of his own body when he comes down off Umiaki, that seems to be the point where the no-god got his hooks into him, and once he teleported the first time, he may never have come back (Serwe wouldn't let him go back! her prize! her proof! united forever in eternity!). ;)

[Happy Ent]

Finished up The White Luck Warrior yesterday, so my initiation into Bakkerdom is complete!

Welcome. The Whelming will commence.

[Madness]

What Has Come Before and the Glossary are more unreliable than the text itself by their nature as a degree removed from the text itself.

[Sci-2]

@Kal: Surely it's become clear that I can't be bothered to consistently spell any character's name correctly?

@Lockensow:

Also, Kellhus doesn't really seem to be in control of his own body when he comes down off Umiaki, that seems to be the point where the no-god got his hooks into him,

You know it is weird - IIRC Kellhus doesn't mention ripping his heart out to his father in TTT. Instead he mentions his prophecy to Saubon.

Wouldn't he mention the greater miracle if he recalled it?

[kuenjato]

The question Trisk, is 'why do you desire to question and parse the text, 'and went mad'?'

Why not take it at face value?

... just because Kellhus is 'mad' doesn't mean he isn't right. Naturally, we won't know until book 3 is released (hopefully we'll find out!). It would be kind of cool if Kellhus is deluded by power/certitude, like his father before him. On the other hand, if Kelly really has walked the Outside, slain demons, etc. etc., I can't see him not having some sort of trump cards buried up his sleeve.

I'm glad someone mentioned that the distances between TWLW and Kellhus appear too far to assume resolution of that particular plotline in TUC (unless significant time passes between whatever the climax and the resolution of the trilogy??). I wonder if the vision is the assassination of another Aspect Emperor, Kellhus's successor (or usurper a la Fayanal) once Kelly becomes the new God or no-God or dies choking on Scranc feces or whatever the ultimate intent at Golgotterah is.

::apologies for any misspellings, it's been a while from when I read the books.

[Happy Ent]

I, too, believe that Kellhus is mad. He is also exactly what he claims to be, in particular the chosen vessel of some other agency that we can identify with the God.

[Kalbear]

What Has Come Before and the Glossary are more unreliable than the text itself by their nature as a degree removed from the text itself.

That's interesting; why would you think that?

The text itself is done almost entirely through point of views. The narrator and the glossary are done in entirely a non-PoV way. What would make you think that a PoV would be more accurate and not unreliable compared to the other? Would Bakker say that someone removed and an observer is more or less objective than someone who is embedded in the story?

[red snow]

Interesting that being mad/insane doesn't have to mean he's wrong or ultimately bad. I guess from a normal humans POV his thought process is so alien to us it may as well be considered a form of insanity. It's also the reason why characters calling him mad doesn't seal the deal for me - especially Moenghus.

[Francis Buck]

I, too, believe that Kellhus is mad. He is also exactly what he claims to be, in particular the chosen vessel of some other agency that we can identify with the God.

This exactly. He's insane, but he's also correct. Which of course causes one to question the nature of insanity in the first place blah blah philosophical musings etc.

[Rhom]

All new initiates must provide their thoughts on ALLCAPS DRAGON.

The "voluntary" blinding comes at a later point in their study. :)

The slog of slogs!!!!

[Francis Buck]

These two (one?) concepts seem incompatible with Oblivion.

Good question (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). I would say that whether or not it makes sense depends on your definition of "oblivion" in this context. For me personally, these souls/beings would not be "conscious" once they're part of the greater Absolute. Or at least, It's not consciousness in the way we think of it. What I really meant by Nonmen worshiping the spaces between the gods (and thus oblivion) is that, if the God is truly awakened, then Oblivion is what would happen to all conscious beings. Their little spotlight of consciousness is already accounted for in the sum of all consciousness that is the God. So, the awakening of the God is the same as creating oblivion for all of these souls, which, in a bizarre way, is the ultimate peace/paradise/heaven. The "redemptIon" spoken of is just a relatively better fate under the thumb of the gods. You're still a slave to these more powerful agencies, even if it happens to be pleasurable.

I don't know if that makes sense. It works in my head, but it's kinda hard to put into words.

But if he's "mad," in what way is he mad? What do we even mean?

Just spitballing, but in that case he would be mad by the standards of humanity. Madness, then, becomes a sort of super-sanity. As is mentioned at some point in the series, madness in Bakker's world is when the Outside is leaking through (the soul?).

This kind of fits hand-in-hand with the concept that the Dunyain's goal of reaching the Absolute is (without them realizing it) one and the same with awakening the God, which also ties into the true messiah being a role that is fulfilled by an individual with the proper features (in this case, madness, as it exists in Bakkerverse).

[lokisnow]

Madness, then, becomes a sort of super-sanity. As is mentioned at some point in the series, madness in Bakker's world is when the Outside is leaking through (the soul?).

To reiterate, since you just said you've figured out a way to interpret insanity=sanity:

Those who could not let go of their certainty authored webs of their own deception when given the truth, and the truth became a tool they used to prove their own falsehoods to themselves.

[Francis Buck]

Alright, so let's look at it this way:

Assume our own world. A guy named Bob believes the FBI is tailing him because he knows secret information about them (he doesn't, it's all made up in his head). For two weeks, Bob is posting the shit he made up in his head on the internet. The FBI suddenly realizes that the shit Bob made up is, in fact, 100% true. He accidentally guessed (through his own insanity) the truths of FBI conspiracies. Is Bob insane?

[Sci-2]

But if he's "mad," in what way is he mad? What do we even mean?

There's madness where someone is delusional, and there's madness where a person acts outside of society's expectations.

It's hard to say with Kellhus because from our standard he was already out of it just by being Dunyain.

He accidentally guessed (through his own insanity) the truths of FBI conspiracies. Is Bob insane?

So maybe Kellhus, in going insane, somehow made himself a better vessel for the God? As in he deluded himself into thinking he was divine, but by doing so he made himself the perfect instrument for the God to use?

[Francis Buck]

That's why I've been agreeing with the idea that the messiah is not something consciously achieved, but something fulfilled. Kellhus doesn't have to realize he's the messiah. Beyond that, the Dunyain don't even have to realize that they've inadvertently been trying to create the messiah. This is also why I believe that the Bakkerverse is timeless (block-universe). Everything was always going to happen. But just like the humans in that world, even the "gods" are not privy to this information, because they're not the God. Within the block-universe, the truly "divine" events (those of the Khahit) were always going to happen. That's where the "holiness of history" comes from.

[unJon]

@Kal: Surely it's become clear that I can't be bothered to consistently spell any character's name correctly?

@Lockensow:

You know it is weird - IIRC Kellhus doesn't mention ripping his heart out to his father in TTT. Instead he mentions his prophecy to Saubon.

Wouldn't he mention the greater miracle if he recalled it?

dude he ripped out Serwa's heart. It wasn't a real miracle. It was sleight of hand.