Is spanking wrong?

[Tears of Lys]

daughter laughed at me when i swatted her. it was a scene from RSB, three-year old telling me who now will take the knife to my heart?

See, now that was some damn funny shit right there, and you people breeze right past it. You all deserve a severe beating.

But why does the "Wrath of God" have to take the form of physical violence? As others have said, there are other effective ways of conditioning your kids to respect authority. Ones that, you know, don't involve an adult inflicting physical violence on a child.

God **has** been known to be a pretty cruel taskmaster.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

But why does the "Wrath of God" have to take the form of physical violence?

What is another form of the "Wrath of God"?

As others have said, there are other effective ways of conditioning your kids to respect authority. Ones that, you know, don't involve an adult inflicting physical violence on a child.

I think every child is different, and I also don't see why corporal punishment is inherently "worse" than any other.

No parent chooses to fail, yet, there are plenty of poorly-behaved kids out there. That's because there are no easy/obvious solutions to disciplining kids. There are parents who, because they don't engage in corporal punishment, scream endlessly at their kids, or use other methods of discipline inconsistently and ineffectively. The result is ill-behaved kids who suffer mental abuse. I would not say those kids are better off.

On the other hand, I know plenty of kids who did receive spankings/corporal punishment on some level, and turned out well-behaved, well-adjusted, etc. So I'm not buying the argument that corporal punishment is necessarily bad. You've got people on here saying that they recieved some corporal punishment and that they don't resent it in the least. Usually, it's a case of "yeah, I was being a shit and deserved it".

Corporal punishment is a higher intensity, but lower duration form of punishment. In that sense, it may well be less cruel.

If you misbehaved in my school, you were generally given the choice of some form of punishment like suspension/detention, or getting "whacked" with the proverbial Board of Education. I always took the whacks because I knew I'd screwed up and just wanted to get it over with, and didn't want my parents to find out I'd screwed up.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

What I have the greatest issue with, though, is this notion that physical pain is some unimaginable evil that children need to be protected from at all cost.

That's my issue. Do something bad -- feel pain is something of a life lesson.

[Tears of Lys]

Y'know, I'm a little curious. How are S/M/B/Ds ever created if not from the cradle?

Inquiring minds wants to know.

[Fez]

I'm very disappointed by this thread as I fully expected it to be about the more 'adult' use of spanking and whether it was degrading.

[Sci-2]

Y'know, I'm a little curious. How are S/M/B/Ds ever created if not from the cradle?

Inquiring minds wants to know.

I'm assuming someone is asked by a trusted partner to engage, or during a brief encounter ends up with a less extreme form of BDSM?

[some people apparently seek out professionals as well, which apparently range from purely sexual to a program teaching customers about submission...and possibly control?]

"Masochist says hit me, Sadist says 'No'."

[Tears of Lys]

I'm very disappointed by this thread as I fully expected it to be about the more 'adult' use of spanking and whether it was degrading.

I'm trying my hardest!

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I'm with you and peterbound on this point as well. There are times when fighting is necessary and kids shouldn't be taught to shy away from it if the situation presents itself under the umbrella of "all hitting is bad". However, I'm dead against adults hitting children as it just seems to have the smell of bullying about it. There's no excuse for physically attacking someone so much smaller than yourself. It's designed to teach fear, which is a heinous thing to teach someone.

When a young animal in the wold misbehaves, the mother doesn't put it in timeout. She swats it. A short, quick act that sends an unmistakeable message. All the criticisms about "teaching fear" would apply. And yet, the cub's development doesn't seem to suffer for it.

[Minaku]

Defending yourself physically when assaulted, as happens often in preschool and kindergarten, is not the kind of hitting I discourage. There have been situations when another kid has been pushing my kid around and my kid has pushed back. That's fine. I don't tell him not to hit, I separate him from the situation and tell everyone to use words instead. If my kid walks up to some other kid and, with no provocation, whacks him in the head, that's the kind of hitting I discourage. And if as a response the kid who's hit hits back, shrug, mine deserved it. Natural consequences.

I was a good kid. I was on more than one occasion beaten or whipped enough that I had bruises or lash marks as a result. I once went to school after one of these discipline sessions and cried as I sat down because it hurt and I was ashamed I was crying about how much it hurt. No kid needs that. No kid needs 1/10th of that. Seeing the hurt and betrayal in my son's face after I smacked him ONCE made me eliminate physical punishment as a means of effective parenting. It isn't, with him.

The only scenario in which I can see a justification of corporeal punishment is if my kid has done something so heinous that he can't fathom how much it affected the other person. That's a negative Golden Rule situation and the probability of ever seeing something like that is incredibly small.

Sci, that mom you saw clearly let her children get out of hand. She could have solved that in a number of ways without hitting, but it'd be a lot harder since she'd already lost control of her children.

solo, I actually laughed out loud at your post.

Edit: Swats that happen as a means of defending yourself or instinctively don't belong in the realm of spanking. If a foal bites the mare while nursing, the mare gives it a kick. Not because it's malicious, but because it's a response to pain. My toddler hit me on the face one morning in bed in such a way that I whacked him right back without even thinking. These are natural consequences. Spanking is deliberate and planned. A parent chooses to spank. A parent chooses to ignore the signs that he or she is not in a good place to deal with a child's behavior and then is driven to a point where hitting becomes their only option. Hitting with anger is wrong, full stop.

[Greywolf2375]

And I have never in my life seen one single situation where smacking was the only thing that worked. Not once.

And I have, so our anecdotes cancel each other out.

[Sci-2]

There isn't one instance where I find corporeal punishment justifiable.

If an adult has to hit a child to make a point, they should question their ability to explain things in the first place and not the child's ability to understand them.

I wonder if part of the problem is the attitude we have toward child rearing (or conflict management in general)? I mean, there are sciences address communication with children.

Surely more people will need to be educated on effective parenting than a host of trivialities foisted upon them by the (American in my case) school system?

[Alex.]

When a young animal in the wold misbehaves, the mother doesn't put it in timeout. She swats it. A short, quick act that sends an unmistakeable message. All the criticisms about "teaching fear" would apply. And yet, the cub's development doesn't seem to suffer for it.

But we aren't wild animals who have to live in fear of getting eaten by other wild animals or accidentally eating an unfamiliar poisonous plant. I'm not really convinced by your logic of comparing us directly to wild animals. Our societies and lifestyles are clearly not analogous.

As I said in my post, I'm not against physical violence. I certainly don't think children should be insulated from it entirely. I'm just not in favour of fear being used as a weapon against vulnerable people, which includes children.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I wonder if part of the problem is the attitude we have toward child rearing (or conflict management in general)? I mean, there are sciences address communication with children.

Surely more people will need to be educated on effective parenting than a host of trivialities foisted upon them by the (American in my case) school system?

But the reality is that parents aren't perfect. They all don't have Ph.D.'s in parenting, or have the time to get one. And no matter how many books or articles you read, some things just don't translate well to everyone through books, and some of those methods require more time, effort, and consistency than some people are able to do. So if someone can use corporal punishment that doesn't amount to "beatings", and it is effective, I think that's fine.

Cross-cultural comparisons ignore the different cultural environments in which kids live, even within the same country. A child fortunate enough to grow up in an environment where obedience ot parents is a cultural norm, where there is little violence and fewer negative influences may require different forms of discipline than a child growing up elsewhere, who may have all sorts of negative influences from a variety of sources.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

But we aren't wild animals who have to live in fear of getting eaten by other wild animals or accidentally eating an unfamiliar poisonous plant. I'm not really convinced by your logic of comparing us directly to wild animals. Our societies and lifestyles are clearly not analogous.

The point was that physical punishment is inherently cruel and ineffective. Nature tells us that is not the case.

As I said in my post, I'm not against physical violence. I certainly don't think children should be insulated from it entirely. I'm just not in favour of fear being used as a weapon against vulnerable people, which includes children.

I really don't understand the "fear as a weapon" argument. Children should fear being punished for doing something that is wrong. All we're talking about is the method of punishment, not "fear" of punishment.

[Sci-2]

I was a good kid. I was on more than one occasion beaten or whipped enough that I had bruises or lash marks as a result. I once went to school after one of these discipline sessions and cried as I sat down because it hurt and I was ashamed I was crying about how much it hurt. No kid needs that.

Yeah, we never had anything like that. Spankings, as far as I can recall, never left a mark. I do, however, recall one time when I was actually terrified of my father - when my sister god a D on a test and spanked for it. That seemed ridiculously unfair.

-From Minaku:

Sci, that mom you saw clearly let her children get out of hand. She could have solved that in a number of ways without hitting, but it'd be a lot harder since she'd already lost control of her children.

-From FLoW:

But the reality is that parents aren't perfect. They all don't have Ph.D.'s in parenting, or have the time to get one. And no matter how many books or articles you read, some things just don't translate well to everyone through books, and some of those methods require more time, effort, and consistency than some people are able to do. So if someone can use corporal punishment that doesn't amount to "beatings", and it is effective, I think that's fine.

I think these quotes interrelate. What happens if you make mistakes on the way and need sharp course corrections? And as FLoW points out, not everyone has time to read books on parenting and some techniques aren't going to work for your particular kids.

I do wonder if some part of the school curriculum should attempt to cover this, but there's always the issue that the techniques learned don't translate toward the future parents' kids.

I've seen kids out of control because they aren't spanked, and I do think in one case the parents are lucky the kid didn't hurt himself playing out some stupid idea.

On the other hand, I've also seen kids choose violence as a way to engage the world and that certainly isn't good either.

[Alex.]

The point was that physical punishment is inherently cruel and ineffective. Nature tells us that is not the case.

Only if you start with the assumption that our society and standards of behaviour are analogous to that of wild animals.

I really don't understand the "fear as a weapon" argument. Children should fear being punished for doing something that is wrong. All we're talking about is the method of punishment, not "fear" of punishment.

I meant it in the sense of it being one of the "weapons" available to correct people's behaviour towards something that you find to be suitable. Not as a literal weapon, if that makes sense.

[Spockydog]

What is another form of the "Wrath of God"?

Locusts?

[Galactus]

I really don't understand the "fear as a weapon" argument. Children should fear being punished for doing something that is wrong. All we're talking about is the method of punishment, not "fear" of punishment.

The problem is that this tends to lead to children fearing the punishment, but not internalizing the fact that some things are wrong. So they'll simply do it anyway when they aren't watched.

(dogs also do this)

[MisterOJ]

And I have, so our anecdotes cancel each other out.

Mine too. When my youngest was going through her destructive phase, we tried everything. Time out. Taking away privileges. Stern lectures. None of it worked.

Then, when after she destroyed the laptop and she got the one "bad" spanking of her life (and this was probably 5-6 swats to her bottom, none of which left a mark) that stopped the behavior cold. No more dumping perfume down air ducts or tearing up cereal boxes and spreading the cereal all over the floor or taking scissors and cutting holes in clothing and blankets.

So, yeah, anecdotally, spanking worked great for in that case. And it has continued to work ever sense - without actually having to resort to using it.

[Glaurung]

I don't think spanking is abuse if used right, but it definitely CAN be abuse if it's used often and severely. A spank shouldn't hurt a child, though a little sting probably isn't bad. I'd argue that a slap on the hand/knuckles hurts worse. I don't think spanking is a bad idea as a last resort punishment or something that keeps a kid in check so that they know that there's something beyond a timeout/corner time if they don't straighten up. Used effectively, a rare spanking can vastly improve the effectiveness of a timeout. I only was spanked a few times growing up...but it worked. I don't remember it ever really hurting, it was mostly the intimidation factor more than anything. My dad was an imposing and large man. If you find yourself spanking your child frequently then it isn't working and you shouldn't be spanking them at all. IF spanking is used it should be only a small part of the overall discipline strategy. If it IS the discipline strategy it is not going to work.