The Walking Dead: Season 4 - No Comic Spoilers!

[Dr. Pepper]

So leaving the bodies out in the yard next to a can of gas was "an attempt to hide it"?

They weren't left out in the yard where everyone could see. They were in an enclosed area where nearly no one would stumble upon. More importantly the attempt to hide it is, obviously, the fact that she didn't tell anyone about it and that she burned the bodies in an area where, in usual circumstances, no one would have seen. You don't burn bodies and keep it secret if you don't have something to hide. She continued to try to hide her crime when she didn't speak up about it when Tyrese brought them over and asked who the fuck did it. It's impossible to call the burning of the bodies being left in an area that was hidden from general public view without telling anyone about it anything other than an attempt to hide a crime. That's the clue that this was murder. Not the blood in the cell or the blood trail leading out to an area no one visits. It's burned bodies when there is no reason or agreement to burn bodies and no reason to keep it secret and hidden.

[Ken Stone]

They weren't left out in the yard where everyone could see. They were in an enclosed area where nearly no one would stumble upon. More importantly the attempt to hide it is, obviously, the fact that she didn't tell anyone about it and that she burned the bodies in an area where, in usual circumstances, no one would have seen. You don't burn bodies and keep it secret if you don't have something to hide. She continued to try to hide her crime when she didn't speak up about it when Tyrese brought them over and asked who the fuck did it. It's impossible to call the burning of the bodies being left in an area that was hidden from general public view without telling anyone about it anything other than an attempt to hide a crime. That's the clue that this was murder. Not the blood in the cell or the blood trail leading out to an area no one visits. It's burned bodies when there is no reason or agreement to burn bodies and no reason to keep it secret and hidden.

There were blood trails leading right to the bodies. No attempt was made to hide the murder or the burning. Also when asked "Did you kill them?" she said "Yes".

In no way, shape, or form did she hide what she did.

BTW - She didn't burn the bodies to hide that she murdered them. She burned them for the reason people ALWAYS burn bodies when there is a plague.

[fuseprime]

I don't think Rick tells anyone about this. I really think Rick will put this in his pocket and use it against Carol later on.

ETA: I just thought of something. She basically pleaded with Carl to not tell Rick about her teaching self-defense to the children. Now I'm wondering: Why was Carol so quick to admit to burning the two sicklings?

[Dr. Pepper]

There were blood trails leading right to the bodies. No attempt was made to hide the murder or the burning. Also when asked "Did you kill them?" she said "Yes".

In no way, shape, or form did she hide what she did.

BTW - She didn't burn the bodies to hide that she murdered them. She burned them for the reason people ALWAYS burn bodies when there is a plague.

I'm not sure how you conclude that there was no attempt to hide the murder or the burning. This was not done in the open, it was not discussed with anyone. There was no reason to do it this way or do it on her own if she wasn't trying to hide it. It doesn't matter if plague victims should be burned. The fact is, there was no agreement that they would be burned. The other victims were being buried. She did not admit to anything until Rick asked her. Before this, she didn't say anything at all, even when she had plenty of opportunity. There's no reason, unless of course you are trying to hide something. We don't exactly know why the blood trails weren't cleaned up. The logical conclusion is that she did not yet have time or that the crime was discovered before she had a chance. It's very possible that Ty came during the time when she left the burning bodies to go get water to clean up (lots of water stuff with Carol this ep, which is interesting). But again. She didn't need to do any of that, didn't need to take it upon herself unless she's trying to hide something, which is that she murdered the living.

Your original question was what clue led them and us to realize these people had been murdered. The clue is the burned bodies and attempts to hide it. If you prefer a different word, 'cover up' might be more suitable. She attempted to cover up the crime by burning the bodies in an area no one frequents and not saying anything about it until Rick asked her point blank if she did it.

[Ken Stone]

I'm not sure how you conclude that there was no attempt to hide the murder or the burning. This was not done in the open, it was not discussed with anyone. There was no reason to do it this way or do it on her own if she wasn't trying to hide it. It doesn't matter if plague victims should be burned. The fact is, there was no agreement that they would be burned. The other victims were being buried. She did not admit to anything until Rick asked her. Before this, she didn't say anything at all, even when she had plenty of opportunity. There's no reason, unless of course you are trying to hide something. We don't exactly know why the blood trails weren't cleaned up. The logical conclusion is that she did not yet have time or that the crime was discovered before she had a chance. It's very possible that Ty came during the time when she left the burning bodies to go get water to clean up (lots of water stuff with Carol this ep, which is interesting). But again. She didn't need to do any of that, didn't need to take it upon herself unless she's trying to hide something, which is that she murdered the living.

Your original question was what clue led them and us to realize these people had been murdered. The clue is the burned bodies and attempts to hide it. If you prefer a different word, 'cover up' might be more suitable. She attempted to cover up the crime by burning the bodies in an area no one frequents and not saying anything about it until Rick asked her point blank if she did it.

Let's take this scenario. Carroll is watching after Karen and David who are literally on their death beds. One of them dies and she sticks the knife in the head like she did to the other guy who died. Then next one dies and she sticks the knife in his brain. Now Carroll, knowing that when you have people dying of diseases you should burn the bodies to keep pathegeon from spreading, drags the bodies to the nearest exit outside. Then she gets some gas and burns the bodies. She then leaves the gas can there and goes to the stream to wash the blood and ash off of herself. While she is gone Tyree-Dogg finds the bodies and has his little temper tantrum.

When I watched it, that is what I assumed happened. It is a completely reasonable and rational explanation of all the evidence that we as viewers were privy too. The only real evidence we have that she killed them when they were still alive, is that she admitted to it. In the initial scene when the bodies were found there was no reason to assume it was murder, and yet the characters in the show jumped to that conclusion immediately. My question was 'Why did they jump to the murder conclusion when it seemed to me that there were other conclusions that could be drawn? Did I miss something obvious?' The fact that bodies were dragged out of a cell and burned outside was not evidence that they were murdered. It was evidence that they were dragged outside and burned.

Think about it. If Carroll would have walked onto the scene of Tyree-Dogg and Rick fighting and said "Sorry guys, they died in the night so I burned the bodies to keep pathgeons from spreading", we as viewers would have accepted it as fact, and there wouldn't have been any evidence contradicting it.

"Oh yeah, why did you drag the bodies to this area?" "It was the closest exit"

"Oh yeah, why did you burn the bodies?" "to stop the spread of the virus"

"Oh yeah, why didn't you tell anyone?" "It happened in the night and I wanted to clean up first. I thought you would still be sleeping"

The only reason that we know that she killed them was because she told Rick she did. However that was long after everyone "knew" it was a murder.

[Dr. Pepper]

Let's take this scenario. Carroll is watching after Karen and David who are literally on their death beds. One of them dies and she sticks the knife in the head like she did to the other guy who died. Then next one dies and she sticks the knife in his brain. Now Carroll, knowing that when you have people dying of diseases you should burn the bodies to keep pathegeon from spreading, drags the bodies to the nearest exit outside. Then she gets some gas and burns the bodies. She then leaves the gas can there and goes to the stream to wash the blood and ash off of herself. While she is gone Tyree-Dogg finds the bodies and has his little temper tantrum.

When I watched it, that is what I assumed happened. It is a completely reasonable and rational explanation of all the evidence that we as viewers were privy too. The only real evidence we have that she killed them when they were still alive, is that she admitted to it. In the initial scene when the bodies were found there was no reason to assume it was murder, and yet the characters in the show jumped to that conclusion immediately. My question was 'Why did they jump to the murder conclusion when it seemed to me that there were other conclusions that could be drawn? Did I miss something obvious?' The fact that bodies were dragged out of a cell and burned outside was not evidence that they were murdered. It was evidence that they were dragged outside and burned.

Think about it. If Carroll would have walked onto the scene of Tyree-Dogg and Rick fighting and said "Sorry guys, they died in the night so I burned the bodies to keep pathgeons from spreading", we as viewers would have accepted it as fact, and there wouldn't have been any evidence contradicting it.

"Oh yeah, why did you drag the bodies to this area?" "It was the closest exit"

"Oh yeah, why did you burn the bodies?" "to stop the spread of the virus"

"Oh yeah, why didn't you tell anyone?" "It happened in the night and I wanted to clean up first. I thought you would still be sleeping"

The only reason that we know that she killed them was because she told Rick she did. However that was long after everyone "knew" it was a murder.

lol. No, it was apparent immediately, to this viewer at least, that these were murdered victims. For one, no one was told about potentially reanimated zombies in cell block A. What cause does anyone have to keep that quiet, regardless if removing the bodies and burning them quickly is reasonable. It was never discussed at any point. They were burying the rest of the bodies. Furthermore, Carol had plenty of time to tell people what happened. It doesn't matter if it makes complete sense to burn the bodies of plague victims. She didn't say anything, even when she was rounded up with Rick and Daryl to go see what had Ty-dog so upset. Before she burned the bodies, the right thing to do -if she hadn't just murdered them - would be to go speak to everyone, say two more died of plague and that she thought it was necessary to burn these bodies instead of burying them. There are few reasons for people to disagree with that, and most of those reasons would be sentimental.

To your question, burned bodies and all of the attempts to cover it up is the clue that this was murder. I don't know how much clearer one can be. Perhaps you saw this as a totally reasonable way to deal with plague victims (I can't disagree with that), but it's completely unreasonable to (1) do it on your own and (2) not say anything about it. Which leads to the conclusion that this was the primary clue the characters had to know that it was a murder and attempted cover up.

I don't think Rick tells anyone about this. I really think Rick will put this in his pocket and use it against Carol later on.

ETA: I just thought of something. She basically pleaded with Carl to not tell Rick about her teaching self-defense to the children. Now I'm wondering: Why was Carol so quick to admit to burning the two sicklings?

I think it's because it's two different things. There is little crisis of morality when teaching children to defend themselves against a known and deadly threat but a huge crisis of morality to murder two people and then try to hide it. For one, murder is wrong. For another, the way she went about it did nothing to limit the spread and it caused way more harm than good because now there is an issue of broken trust to deal with which is very dangerous in a group such as theirs living in a world such as theirs. She thought she could make good decisions that would be valuable to the group, but this decision was a bad one.

[red snow]

another strong episode. I', really enjoying how they are tackling the infection and the Carol reveal at the end was great. I didn't have her as a suspect but it made complete sense given her behaviour. I was thinking she was just freaking out about the infection as she was very wary about being around any of the infected people - even the kid. I guess this could still be happening although it should have been enough to make her wary about getting close to the two infected.

Ken Stone does raise some very good points though. The whole murder scenario could have been completely avoided if Carol had just said she found they had turned and had to put them down. Maybe if Rick or someone had said the crime scene suggested a non-zombie struggle? I'm guessing live blood isn't as decayed/smelly as zombie blood and you probably get a spatter pattern from a live victim and not a zombie. It's another case of a little bit of dialogue could have made things clearer.

I definitely think Rick will keep this one to himself which is kind of tricky as Carol should be punished if she killed live people.I guess Rick may as well wait to see if Tyreese makes it back alive first.

Poor old Tyreese is being put through the wringer. Looks like it's going to be a crucible for him

I have to say the overall character work so far this season has been great. Hershcel had some great scenes this week as did Karl. Michonne has been better in 3 episodes than in a whole season and even Herschel's youngest daughter is feeling like a proper character now.

Only mild criticism I have of the episode is with the editing. Sometimes it felt like a night or day had passed only for another scene to imply an hour had passed. The timing was all over the joint.

[Lady Olenna]

I keep going back and forth on this Carol ordeal. I don't know that the girl(s) would have done it - although it would be an opportunity to prove she is not weak. But perhaps someone close to Carol did?

I feel like Rick asked her to see how far she would go with it. It just seems like such a set up to have us be shocked at Carol's cold hearted actions. But to me, it's more in line with her character to cover up for someone she loves.

Either way it gives her character more depth which I am pleased with. I would just hate for her to be exiled now that she's finally developing as a character.

[Nictarion]

I thought it was quite clear Carol did it, even before Rick asked her. Mainly the water scene.

[eaglestate]

I really liked this episode. A lot of things paid homage to the comics. The fight between Rick and Tyreese as well as Tyreese fighting his way out of the crowd come to mind quickly.That shot of those thousands of walkers gave me goose bumps.

[Alia of the knife]

I keep going back and forth on this Carol ordeal. I don't know that the girl(s) would have done it - although it would be an opportunity to prove she is not weak. But perhaps someone close to Carol did?

I feel like Rick asked her to see how far she would go with it. It just seems like such a set up to have us be shocked at Carol's cold hearted actions. But to me, it's more in line with her character to cover up for someone she loves.

Either way it gives her character more depth which I am pleased with. I would just hate for her to be exiled now that she's finally developing as a character.

I agree, (and I'm re-watching it now to see the handprint), but I keep going back to the previous episode where Carol was with the girls at the fence, and the older girl took the knife from Carol.

Tyrese also has been demanding retribution for the act, but what does he face if it's warped and misguided kid?

Remember the discussion last thread, or maybe it was Talking Dead where the point was made the kids already accept this cold world and the adults are still grappling with it.

Even Carl made the decision to pop a cap in that boy after the attack on the prison. The boy was most likely dangerous, but then again, maybe not.

Either way, Carols evolution from victim to "enforcer" makes sense. She goes from one extreme to the other because once one stops being a victim, they don't go back, and could lead to another extreme.

[Lady Olenna]

I agree, (and I'm re-watching it now to see the handprint), but I keep going back to the previous episode where Carol was with the girls at the fence, and the older girl took the knife from Carol.

Tyrese also has been demanding retribution for the act, but what does he face if it's warped and misguided kid? Remember the discussion last thread, or maybe it was Talking Dead where the point was made the kids already accept this cold world where the adults are still grappling with it.

Even Carl made the decision to pop a cap in that boy after the attack on the prison. The boy was most likely dangerous, but then again, maybe not.

Either way, Carols evolution from victim to "enforcer" makes sense. She goes from one extreme to the other because once one stops being a victim, they don't go back and could lead to another extreme.

I completely overlooked and forgot the knife scene. Nice catch on that.

I still think Carl was right for popping that kid.

[Alia of the knife]

I completely overlooked and forgot the knife scene. Nice catch on that.

I still think Carl was right for popping that kid.

I agree. There are rights and wrongs to be sure as Dale, and then later, Hershel point out, but then there are those ambiguities.

The boy that Carl shot, the hitchhiker on the road, and now this, are areas of questionable actions, but in this world there is not luxury of hindsight and the question of "the needs of the few vs. the needs of the many," will be an ongoing theme.

If she surmised that killing/sacrificing two people to save many others, even if she is ultimately wrong, then that puts her in morally ambiguous territory. Rick even initially suggested that "the killer" may have burned the bodies to stave off plague, but Ty wasn't having it.

After all, it wasn't too long ago that Rick was going to hand over Michonne to the Governor to spare the prison, though he ultimately decided against it.

[Martini Sigil]

On a side note.... How brutally awful was Marilyn Manson on TD?..... Holy cow he was a blathering, incoherant dunce. It was a painful watch

[Nictarion]

On a side note.... How brutally awful was Marilyn Manson on TD?..... Holy cow he was a blathering, incoherant dunce. It was a painful watch

Agreed. I don't usually care for Chris Hardwick, but he was kind of funny with some of his responses to Manson's nonsense statements.

[Dr. Pepper]

I keep going back and forth on this Carol ordeal. I don't know that the girl(s) would have done it - although it would be an opportunity to prove she is not weak. But perhaps someone close to Carol did?

I feel like Rick asked her to see how far she would go with it. It just seems like such a set up to have us be shocked at Carol's cold hearted actions. But to me, it's more in line with her character to cover up for someone she loves.

Either way it gives her character more depth which I am pleased with. I would just hate for her to be exiled now that she's finally developing as a character.

I keep trying to play with the idea that it was Carl. They've given enough material that it's a fun avenue to explore. I wouldn't put it past Carl based on his past behaviors. There was also the moment where he killed the walker attacking Michonne and he had this momentary happy grin. Could be because he was happy to have saved her, could be because he was happy to be killing things again. He went to his dad upset afterwards, but he's not an entirely skilled child actor so it's hard to determine what sort of acting was intended. They've also spent a lot of time with Carl in innocent moments. Excited to see Michonne, going to story time even though he hid in the shadows, naming the pig, joking about M&M's, bypassing an opportunity to kill some walkers in the woods. It's just a lot of time spent showing that this Carl isn't the same Carl who shot an unarmed kid. It could all be an act Carl is putting on but at this point it's hard to believe that a zombie show, even a good one, would be that nuanced with character development. I'd really like to see if someone else recalls material that could really support the idea that it was Carl. With their editing, it's been really difficult to judge how much time has gone by between scenes. The scene moves from Carl talking to Rick while he's burning the pig pen directly to Ty finding the bodies.

Even as fun as it is playing around with other suspects, I still think Carol easily fits. One of her defining scenes last season was telling Andrea to sleep with the Gov, make him happy, then slit his throat while he slept and she was so calm and matter of fact about it. It felt like a point where she decided that cutting the heads off snakes was better than waiting to see if the snake would bite. A lot of her dialogue this season has sort of centered around this idea. Stuff like "we need to amputate, we need to remove the infection, we need to get the water done right now today, we need to quarantine sick people now, you need to get through this knife lesson, i know your dad died but you need to learn this lesson about not being weak right this moment, etc". It's also basic and necessary stuff, but they tend to have most characters focusing on a specific theme so with the bulk of her dialogue focusing on this, I think it flows easily from six months ago telling Andrea she needed to kill the Gov to now doing everything to remove the infection, whether that infection is flu or weakness or low water supplies. And she was so broken about it this episode. She's one of the few who didn't approach Ty-Dog to offer condolences. They made a big point about her walking away when she and Rick were watching him dig the graves and then later how shaken she was when Ty-Dog was standing behind her.

I do think that no matter what, Daryl will be on her side. Her first dialogue of the season was to Daryl, "Remember I liked you first." I can go overboard with looking for foreshadowing but I do think it's likely to be significant.

[Loslathdos]

If the people had turned into zombies, the person who killed the zombies would have then told the others, not dragged them and then burned them and then hid.

[Loslathdos]

If the people had turned into zombies, the person who killed the zombies would have then told the others, not dragged them and then burned them and then hid.

[Dr. Pepper]

Does anyone happen to have a screen cap of the hand of the person feeding the walkers? I've read some saying the race of the hand owner was shown, but I can't seem to see it when I rewatch. The closest I get is just seeing the typical halo around the flashlight, but no hand.

[SerMixalot]

I don't get the moral compunction over carl wanting to kill zombies. He should have at least killed that woman in the woods. She is a walker and can eventually reach the prison. Down every zombie you get a chance to down. Eventually this may reduce the risk against the living.