The Princess and the Queen [spoilers]

[Lord Varys]

I think we should have a thread where we can keep discussing the story until it is published, as well as where we can discuss the story itself after it's finally out there.

[TalalOfDorne]

I agree. I havent read much about when the story is coming out. Is there a set date?

[Lord Varys]

It's going to come out on December, 3, 2013, in the anthology called 'Dangerous Women'.

An excerpt and a not-so-spoilery review (the ultimate outcome of the Dance is already known) can be read on tor.com.

We've had also a reading of a good portion of the story at Capclave which revealed a little bit more on the story.

[King of Winters]

We've had also a reading of a good portion of the story at Capclave which revealed a little bit more on the story.

Ooh, do you have a link?

[Lord Varys]

The excerpt:

http://www.tor.com/stories/2013/07/dangerous-women-george-r-r-martin-excerpt

The review:

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/07/story-review-george-r-r-martin-the-princess-and-the-queen-or-the-blacks-and-the-greens

Somebody with authority to do so may pin this thread. It would make sense to discuss this story and its content is some sort of official thread. We have done the same with the Dunk and Egg tales when they came out.

Although it may be not stupid to create perhaps a whole sub-section of the board for historical discussion (i.e. Dunk & Egg, The Princess and the Queen, and eventually 'The World of Ice and Fire'). Especially the latter should cause way too much posts and ongoing discussions for one thread (and in 'General' most of the stuff will be swallowed up too soon).

[Gurkhal]

While I think that this thread is a kind of must for the story I also think that it might be to early to post it before the story has actually been released.

[RumHam]

While I think that this thread is a kind of must for the story I also think that it might be to early to post it before the story has actually been released.

We actually had one before with lots of interesting discussions and speculation before it was closed for length.

[Gurkhal]

We actually had one before with lots of interesting discussions and speculation before it was closed for length.

Well I never saw that so I can't comment on it.

[Maia]

Great! I was going to start such a thread myself, since being on vacation away from the internet prevented me from commenting on the previous thread after the Capclave readings summaries started to roll in.

Anyway, lots of fascinating tidbits that pose some new questions about the Dance of the Dragons and Targaryen dragon-rearing practices. Namely:

It seems that Targaryens could hatch the dragon eggs themselves and it took about a decade from an egg being laid in a newborn's cradle, then a child constantly keeping an egg close to his/her person, to a dragon hatching. Was there some final step to this? Dany's instincts were urging her to place the eggs in a fire. Maybe once the Targaryen child in question felt that the egg was ready, an adult dragon had to breathe fire on it? And, coincidentally, was it possible for an adult Targ to hatch the eggs this way? I somehow think not, but we'll see.

Are there some parallels between "egg in the cradle" and whatever the Others did with Craster's baby sons, I wonder? Maybe the Others are also hatched in a similar way...

I was very much surprised to hear that future Aegon III Dragonsbane apparently had already hatched his dragon before the war. I used to think that he was too young for it and thus ignorant of some crucial step of the process when he became the senior surviving Targaryen, which led to his and his descendants inability to hatch more dragons. Nor was his blood too diluted, as was my second theory on his dragon-husbandry failure, what with his Targaryen father who was also his great-uncle. Hm...

Incidentally, his dragon must have been killed sometime during the war, right? Because if Dany's dragons are any guide, there is no way that a 2+ year dragon would be the size of a mastiff, as the last 2 dragons were. Or flightless ditto. I assume that the last 2 belonged to his brother future Viserys II and maybe his first wife, Aegon II's daughter and were being poisoned by maesters pretty much from the moment they hatched, sometime after the end of the war. Perhaps, they were too feeble to properly breathe dragonfire on the eggs and _that's_ why no more dragons could hatch?

It also appears to me that Rhaenyra's superiority in dragon numbers may have led to Aegon II enlisting the help of maesters to develop more efficient methods of dragon-killing and that he revealed some important family secrets to them in the process, thus giving a rise to the Citadel's dragon-extermination conspiracy.

In the light of the fact that Drogon started to bond to Dany while still in the egg and would have never hatched if not for her human-sacrifice-and-possibly-comet-aided miracle, I have to wonder if all these unhatched Targaryen eggs "bonded" with their owners in the same way, sending dreams, etc. I.e. if the overriding desire to try anything to hatch the eggs that so many readers considered to be "madness" and "obsession" for so long wasn't a logical result of a "natural" (for Planetos) process that was somehow interrupted and prevented from reaching it's conclusion?

Speaking of which - why on earth were pre-Dance Targaryens hatching all these new dragons, when they had older, riderless ones? Was it not more prestigious and useful to have a bigger, older dragon?

I could have thought that bonding with one would have been more dangerous or difficult, but - we never, so far, have heard about a Targaryen failing to bond with a dragon, did we? Prince Aemond, who, apparently, didn't manage to hatch his own, was able to bond and learn to ride Vhagar in what? Several days? A couple of weeks? And having a 10+ old kid train a new dragon isn't exactly "safe" either, is it?

BTW, interestingly enough, it seems that the Dragonstone dragons, even the wild ones, weren't killing people, or they would have been called something other than "Sheep-Stealer" et al. by the populace.

I also suspect that the adult wild dragons are the most difficult to bond with and that's what the Dragonlords used the horns for, such as the one that Victarion currently has in his possession.

However, the new info about Rhaenyra's misshapen stillborn girl gives more support to my long-held conviction that the first Dragonlords somehow changed themselves and their descendants with sorcery to enable bonding with dragons, so Vic's and Euron's hopes to get themselves some dragons to ride are in vain.

In response to Dany-haters - yes, Rhaenyra's stillborn girl was misshapen like Rhaego, but Rhaego was also allegedly decomposing when removed from Dany's womb, even though he was merrily kicking in her belly just before she was brought into the tent. There can be no doubt that in case of Rhaego, malignant sorcery was involved, IMHO, and whatever happened was not "natural" not even for a Targaryen woman.

Speaking of all these misshapen babies, BTW, isn't it funny that Tyrion was rumored to have been born with a tail? And even though I am pretty sure that Tyrion's assertion to Oberyn that he was born with a tail and Tywin had it lopped off was a joke about having been forbidden to whore... Heh.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

good idea !!!

[Le Cygne]

We actually had one before with lots of interesting discussions and speculation before it was closed for length.

Old thread/fyi

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79950-the-princess-and-the-queen-spoilers/

Can't wait for the story...

[Fire Eater]

However, the new info about Rhaenyra's misshapen stillborn girl gives more support to my long-held conviction that the first Dragonlords somehow changed themselves and their descendants with sorcery to enable bonding with dragons, so Vic's and Euron's hopes to get themselves some dragons to ride are in vain.

When Barth write the book about dragons and their cousins: wyrms and wyverns, he put in the title: Their Unnatural History. Of all the words why does he say unnatural? Dragons and magic could have had unnatural side effects on the Valyrians, but that is just a theory.

Rhaenyra was the Princess of Dragonstone at the time and at her seat so I imagine that means Dany will land at Dragonstone.

[papirico52]

Damn it that review makes me wanna read it right NAU!!!!

I know it's a novella but how many pages could it be?

[Sevumar]

When Barth write the book about ragons and their cousins: wyrms and wyverns, he put in the title: Their Unnatural History. Of all the words why does he say unnatural? Dragons and magic could have had unnatural side effects on the Valyrians, but that is just a theory.

The role of magic may be one of the reasons for Barth's choice of "unnatural" in the title of his book. The impact of magic in the region of Valyria suggests and unnatural quality. There's discussion of smoking seas, demons, and perpetually orange skies. There are hints that deformities may be common in Mantarys, one of the closest inhabited places to the ruins of Valyria.

But I think there's also a possibility that the Valyrian intervention in the affairs of dragons and their ancestors led them to a place that was different than their natural existence. Valyrians may have used magic to form or train them in a way that caused them to diverge from their wild brethren.

With so little real information out there to this point in the story, it's hard to know for sure, but it seems like dragons as they're known to the Valyrians and their descendants require human action of some kind to hatch. There are said to be dragons in Asshai, but we're not told whether they're wild or controlled by humans. It might have something in common with human-bred fruit trees that are well-suited to our needs, yet incapable of reproducing on their own.

[Rheagar Prime]

A shame the novella will not explain how dragons reproduce whether through mating or a sexually.

[Mithras]

Barth was called more sorcerer than a septon. If he says unnatural, I think something really creepy was going on. His books are destroyed by the order of Baelor the Mad, only fragmetns survived. And I highly suspect that these fragments are allowed to survive because they do not contain dangerous information. Maybe citadel is hiding full copies in a safe place.

[Lord Varys]

Baelor the Blessed was not anti-dragon per se. He apparently tried to hatch some dragon eggs with prayers. Thus my guess is that Baelor had other issues with Septon Barth, although it's not unlikely that these issues were connected to magic, dragons, and prophecy.

On 'The Princess and the Queen' I can give a little more details on who had a dragon and who didn't at the beginning of the story. This was all covered by the original reading of the section of the story that was read on Capclave, so I think that it is safe to post it here. The only new stuff are the names of the Targaryens and their dragons, i.e. who rode what dragon when the first Viserys died. If you don't want to any of that, please stay away from the spoiler button! There are no spoilers in there that outline any events that happen during the Dance of the Dragons itself.

The Targaryens on Dragonstone:

1. Rhaenyra has three sons by her first husband, the late Ser Laenor Velaryon (who once apparently rode the now riderless dragon Seasmoke). Those are Jacaerys 'Jace' Velaryon, riding the dragon Vermax, Lucerys 'Luke' Velaryon, riding the dragon the dragon Arrax, and Joffrey Velaryon, riding the dragon Tyraxes. The two elder sons are sent as Rhaenyra's envoys to the Vale and the North (Jace) and to Storm's End (Luke), whereas the twelve-year old Joffrey has to stay at home. We can assume that Luke is going to fail in his mission since we already know that Storm's End is going to declare for Aegon II (from ADwD), whereas Jace is likely going to succeed (at least in securing initial support from the North and the Vale).

2. Rhaenyra's second husband - formerly known as 'the Über-Targ' - is her uncle - a younger brother of Viserys I - Prince Daemon Targaryen. His dragon is named Caraxes. Daemon was married to a Laena Velaryon in his first marriage, and has twin-daughters from her, the Ladies (not Princesses!) Baela - who rides the dragon Moondancer - and Rhaena Targaryen (no dragon at the beginning of the story). Daemon's children by Rhaenyra are the later Aegon III, who rides the small dragon Stormdancer, and the later Viserys II, who has only an egg at the beginning of the story.

Rhaenyra is born in 97 AC, which means that she is 32 at the beginning of the story.

3. Princess Rhaenys Targaryen - the so-called Queen Who Never Was - is a fifty-five year old mother and grandmother at the beginning of the story. She rides the dragon Meleys the Red Queen. Her husband is Lord Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark, which would make the former spouses of Rhaenyra and Daemon (Laenor and Laena Velaryon) her children, and Baela and Rhaena Targaryen her grandchildren. But this is not certain. Rhaenys herself seems to be one of the grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne since she is daughter of one Prince Aemon Targaryen and a Lady Jocelyn Baratheon. This Aemon most likely is a son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, although we don't know that for sure (we don't know for sure if Jaehaerys had a brother).

Rhaenys apparently was one of the principal claimants to the Iron Throne when Jaehaerys ordered his succession in 92 and 101 AC. In 92 he chose a certain Baelon over Rhaenys, and on a Great Council in 101 the later Viserys I got more Lords on his side then Rhaenys. But the then ruling Lord Stark, and his bannermen Manderly and Dustin spoke for Princess Rhaenys. After that the smallfolk apparently started to call her 'The Queen Who Never Was'.

I guess we have to wait for the Worldbook to clear this stuff up, but my guess is that this Baelon and Rhaenys (with Rhaenys perhaps being the elder) were grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne through an elder, perhaps the eldest son, whereas the later Viserys I is descended from a younger son of the Old King. This could explain why he was married to an Arryn with Targaryen blood instead to a Targaryen or Velaryon. He was not exactly at the top of the line of succession when he was married.

The children and grandchildren of Queen Dowager Alicent Hightower Targaryen:

1. Aegon II is born in 107 AC, thus he is 22 at the beginning of the story. Viserys married Alicent in 106 AC. Aegon rides the dragon Sunfyre and is married to his sister Helaena, who may be Alicent's youngest child. Aegon and Helaena have three children at the beginning of the story, the six-year-old twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, and a two-year-old son named Maelor. The twins have the dragon hatchlings Morghul and Shrykos, and Maelor only an egg.

2. Aegon's two younger brothers are Aemond - who rides Vhagar, as we all know - and Daeron, who rides a dragon called Tessarion the Blue Queen. I guess Rhaenys's Meleys the Red Queen and Daeron's Tessarion the Blue Queen are related somehow.

[Veltigar]

On 'The Princess and the Queen' I can give a little more details on who had a dragon and who didn't at the beginning of the story. This was all covered by the original reading of the section of the story that was read on Capclave, so I think that it is safe to post it here. The only new stuff are the names of the Targaryens and their dragons, i.e. who rode what dragon when the first Viserys died. If you don't want to any of that, please stay away from the spoiler button! There are no spoilers in there that outline any events that happen during the Dance of the Dragons itself.

The Targaryens on Dragonstone:

1. Rhaenyra has three sons by her first husband, the late Ser Laenor Velaryon (who once apparently rode the now riderless dragon Seasmoke). Those are Jacaerys 'Jace' Velaryon, riding the dragon Vermax, Lucerys 'Luke' Velaryon, riding the dragon the dragon Arrax, and Joffrey Velaryon, riding the dragon Tyraxes. The two elder sons are sent as Rhaenyra's envoys to the Vale and the North (Jace) and to Storm's End (Luke), whereas the twelve-year old Joffrey has to stay at home. We can assume that Luke is going to fail in his mission since we already know that Storm's End is going to declare for Aegon II (from ADwD), whereas Jace is likely going to succeed (at least in securing initial support from the North and the Vale).

2. Rhaenyra's second husband - formerly known as 'the Über-Targ' - is her uncle - a younger brother of Viserys I - Prince Daemon Targaryen. His dragon is named Caraxes. Daemon was married to a Laena Velaryon in his first marriage, and has twin-daughters from her, the Ladies (not Princesses!) Baela - who rides the dragon Moondancer - and Rhaena Targaryen (no dragon at the beginning of the story). Daemon's children by Rhaenyra are the later Aegon III, who rides the small dragon Stormdancer, and the later Viserys II, who has only an egg at the beginning of the story.

Rhaenyra is born in 97 AC, which means that she is 32 at the beginning of the story.

3. Princess Rhaenys Targaryen - the so-called Queen Who Never Was - is a fifty-five year old mother and grandmother at the beginning of the story. She rides the dragon Meleys the Red Queen. Her husband is Lord Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark, which would make the former spouses of Rhaenyra and Daemon (Laenor and Laena Velaryon) her children, and Baela and Rhaena Targaryen her grandchildren. But this is not certain. Rhaenys herself seems to be one of the grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne since she is daughter of one Prince Aemon Targaryen and a Lady Jocelyn Baratheon. This Aemon most likely is a son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, although we don't know that for sure (we don't know for sure if Jaehaerys had a brother).

Rhaenys apparently was one of the principal claimants to the Iron Throne when Jaehaerys ordered his succession in 92 and 101 AC. In 92 he chose a certain Baelon over Rhaenys, and on a Great Council in 101 the later Viserys I got more Lords on his side then Rhaenys. But the then ruling Lord Stark, and his bannermen Manderly and Dustin spoke for Princess Rhaenys. After that the smallfolk apparently started to call her 'The Queen Who Never Was'.

I guess we have to wait for the Worldbook to clear this stuff up, but my guess is that this Baelon and Rhaenys (with Rhaenys perhaps being the elder) were grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne through an elder, perhaps the eldest son, whereas the later Viserys I is descended from a younger son of the Old King. This could explain why he was married to an Arryn with Targaryen blood instead to a Targaryen or Velaryon. He was not exactly at the top of the line of succession when he was married.

The children and grandchildren of Queen Dowager Alicent Hightower Targaryen:

1. Aegon II is born in 107 AC, thus he is 22 at the beginning of the story. Viserys married Alicent in 106 AC. Aegon rides the dragon Sunfyre and is married to his sister Helaena, who may be Alicent's youngest child. Aegon and Helaena have three children at the beginning of the story, the six-year-old twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, and a two-year-old son named Maelor. The twins have the dragon hatchlings Morghul and Shrykos, and Maelor only an egg.

2. Aegon's two younger brothers are Aemond - who rides Vhagar, as we all know - and Daeron, who rides a dragon called Tessarion the Blue Queen. I guess Rhaenys's Meleys the Red Queen and Daeron's Tessarion the Blue Queen are related somehow.

Awesome post Lord Varys :D

I do wonder why on earth the third son was named Joffrey. Not exactly a Targaryen name.

And I'm quite curious about the Starks and the Manderley's supporting Rhaenys. Is there anymore info on that?

[Fire Eater]

Baelor the Blessed was not anti-dragon per se. He apparently tried to hatch some dragon eggs with prayers. Thus my guess is that Baelor had other issues with Septon Barth, although it's not unlikely that these issues were connected to magic, dragons, and prophecy.

On 'The Princess and the Queen' I can give a little more details on who had a dragon and who didn't at the beginning of the story. This was all covered by the original reading of the section of the story that was read on Capclave, so I think that it is safe to post it here. The only new stuff are the names of the Targaryens and their dragons, i.e. who rode what dragon when the first Viserys died. If you don't want to any of that, please stay away from the spoiler button! There are no spoilers in there that outline any events that happen during the Dance of the Dragons itself.

The Targaryens on Dragonstone:

1. Rhaenyra has three sons by her first husband, the late Ser Laenor Velaryon (who once apparently rode the now riderless dragon Seasmoke). Those are Jacaerys 'Jace' Velaryon, riding the dragon Vermax, Lucerys 'Luke' Velaryon, riding the dragon the dragon Arrax, and Joffrey Velaryon, riding the dragon Tyraxes. The two elder sons are sent as Rhaenyra's envoys to the Vale and the North (Jace) and to Storm's End (Luke), whereas the twelve-year old Joffrey has to stay at home. We can assume that Luke is going to fail in his mission since we already know that Storm's End is going to declare for Aegon II (from ADwD), whereas Jace is likely going to succeed (at least in securing initial support from the North and the Vale).

2. Rhaenyra's second husband - formerly known as 'the Über-Targ' - is her uncle - a younger brother of Viserys I - Prince Daemon Targaryen. His dragon is named Caraxes. Daemon was married to a Laena Velaryon in his first marriage, and has twin-daughters from her, the Ladies (not Princesses!) Baela - who rides the dragon Moondancer - and Rhaena Targaryen (no dragon at the beginning of the story). Daemon's children by Rhaenyra are the later Aegon III, who rides the small dragon Stormdancer, and the later Viserys II, who has only an egg at the beginning of the story.

Rhaenyra is born in 97 AC, which means that she is 32 at the beginning of the story.

3. Princess Rhaenys Targaryen - the so-called Queen Who Never Was - is a fifty-five year old mother and grandmother at the beginning of the story. She rides the dragon Meleys the Red Queen. Her husband is Lord Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark, which would make the former spouses of Rhaenyra and Daemon (Laenor and Laena Velaryon) her children, and Baela and Rhaena Targaryen her grandchildren. But this is not certain. Rhaenys herself seems to be one of the grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne since she is daughter of one Prince Aemon Targaryen and a Lady Jocelyn Baratheon. This Aemon most likely is a son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, although we don't know that for sure (we don't know for sure if Jaehaerys had a brother).

Rhaenys apparently was one of the principal claimants to the Iron Throne when Jaehaerys ordered his succession in 92 and 101 AC. In 92 he chose a certain Baelon over Rhaenys, and on a Great Council in 101 the later Viserys I got more Lords on his side then Rhaenys. But the then ruling Lord Stark, and his bannermen Manderly and Dustin spoke for Princess Rhaenys. After that the smallfolk apparently started to call her 'The Queen Who Never Was'.

I guess we have to wait for the Worldbook to clear this stuff up, but my guess is that this Baelon and Rhaenys (with Rhaenys perhaps being the elder) were grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne through an elder, perhaps the eldest son, whereas the later Viserys I is descended from a younger son of the Old King. This could explain why he was married to an Arryn with Targaryen blood instead to a Targaryen or Velaryon. He was not exactly at the top of the line of succession when he was married.

The children and grandchildren of Queen Dowager Alicent Hightower Targaryen:

1. Aegon II is born in 107 AC, thus he is 22 at the beginning of the story. Viserys married Alicent in 106 AC. Aegon rides the dragon Sunfyre and is married to his sister Helaena, who may be Alicent's youngest child. Aegon and Helaena have three children at the beginning of the story, the six-year-old twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, and a two-year-old son named Maelor. The twins have the dragon hatchlings Morghul and Shrykos, and Maelor only an egg.

2. Aegon's two younger brothers are Aemond - who rides Vhagar, as we all know - and Daeron, who rides a dragon called Tessarion the Blue Queen. I guess Rhaenys's Meleys the Red Queen and Daeron's Tessarion the Blue Queen are related somehow.

Thanks for the info. I think the confrontation between Rhaenys's son and Aemond at SE ends in a dragon fight. Since, Aemond has Vhagar, the oldest and largest of the Targaryen dragons, Aemond wins the battle and Luke ends up dead. This is what sets off the Dance of Dragons into a fully-fledged armed conflict.

[Hardstone]

The Targaryens on Dragonstone:

1. Rhaenyra has three sons by her first husband, the late Ser Laenor Velaryon (who once apparently rode the now riderless dragon Seasmoke). Those are Jacaerys 'Jace' Velaryon, riding the dragon Vermax, Lucerys 'Luke' Velaryon, riding the dragon the dragon Arrax, and Joffrey Velaryon, riding the dragon Tyraxes. The two elder sons are sent as Rhaenyra's envoys to the Vale and the North (Jace) and to Storm's End (Luke), whereas the twelve-year old Joffrey has to stay at home. We can assume that Luke is going to fail in his mission since we already know that Storm's End is going to declare for Aegon II (from ADwD), whereas Jace is likely going to succeed (at least in securing initial support from the North and the Vale).

2. Rhaenyra's second husband - formerly known as 'the Über-Targ' - is her uncle - a younger brother of Viserys I - Prince Daemon Targaryen. His dragon is named Caraxes. Daemon was married to a Laena Velaryon in his first marriage, and has twin-daughters from her, the Ladies (not Princesses!) Baela - who rides the dragon Moondancer - and Rhaena Targaryen (no dragon at the beginning of the story). Daemon's children by Rhaenyra are the later Aegon III, who rides the small dragon Stormdancer, and the later Viserys II, who has only an egg at the beginning of the story.

Rhaenyra is born in 97 AC, which means that she is 32 at the beginning of the story.

3. Princess Rhaenys Targaryen - the so-called Queen Who Never Was - is a fifty-five year old mother and grandmother at the beginning of the story. She rides the dragon Meleys the Red Queen. Her husband is Lord Corlys Velaryon of Driftmark, which would make the former spouses of Rhaenyra and Daemon (Laenor and Laena Velaryon) her children, and Baela and Rhaena Targaryen her grandchildren. But this is not certain. Rhaenys herself seems to be one of the grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne since she is daughter of one Prince Aemon Targaryen and a Lady Jocelyn Baratheon. This Aemon most likely is a son of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne, although we don't know that for sure (we don't know for sure if Jaehaerys had a brother).

Rhaenys apparently was one of the principal claimants to the Iron Throne when Jaehaerys ordered his succession in 92 and 101 AC. In 92 he chose a certain Baelon over Rhaenys, and on a Great Council in 101 the later Viserys I got more Lords on his side then Rhaenys. But the then ruling Lord Stark, and his bannermen Manderly and Dustin spoke for Princess Rhaenys. After that the smallfolk apparently started to call her 'The Queen Who Never Was'.

I guess we have to wait for the Worldbook to clear this stuff up, but my guess is that this Baelon and Rhaenys (with Rhaenys perhaps being the elder) were grandchildren of Jaehaerys and Alysanne through an elder, perhaps the eldest son, whereas the later Viserys I is descended from a younger son of the Old King. This could explain why he was married to an Arryn with Targaryen blood instead to a Targaryen or Velaryon. He was not exactly at the top of the line of succession when he was married.

The children and grandchildren of Queen Dowager Alicent Hightower Targaryen:

1. Aegon II is born in 107 AC, thus he is 22 at the beginning of the story. Viserys married Alicent in 106 AC. Aegon rides the dragon Sunfyre and is married to his sister Helaena, who may be Alicent's youngest child. Aegon and Helaena have three children at the beginning of the story, the six-year-old twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, and a two-year-old son named Maelor. The twins have the dragon hatchlings Morghul and Shrykos, and Maelor only an egg.

2. Aegon's two younger brothers are Aemond - who rides Vhagar, as we all know - and Daeron, who rides a dragon called Tessarion the Blue Queen. I guess Rhaenys's Meleys the Red Queen and Daeron's Tessarion the Blue Queen are related somehow.

Great write up Varys. Very informative. It's very handy to have more names to differentiate between so many Targaryens!

One question though. I thought the Greens only had 4 dragons? I count 5 in the text or were Morghul and/or Shyrkos very newly hatched near the beginning of the war? If they had two baby dragons, then I assume they were even more disadvantaged on the dragonfront than we first though. Vhagar must be the powerhouse of both factions to give them a slight edge.

I gather that one of the Blacks steeds is a wild dragon that eventually gets tamed? As I counted 9 in the text and it was noted in the other TPQ thread that Silverwing (Alysanne's dragon) was still alive during the Dance. No doubt it was a retiree like Seasmoke.