NFL 2013-14 Week 12: Brady-Manning-Pocalypse Now

[Rockroi]

Yeah, how the Pats could justify letting that guy go is beyond me. As far as I'm concerned, Welker was every bit the integral part of the Patsy's offense as Brady is.

Gravity isn't as integral to the Pat's offense as Brady.

I agree with the first part of what you said, namely that letting Welker go was foolish, but specifically a "penny wise, pound foolish." The Pats knew Welker was not worth a franchise tag and were always hoping to get him for a home-town discount. Welker thought otherwise and went to the Broncos... for about the amount the Pats wanted to sign him for. I agree that the Pats should have made more an effort to sign him, but Belichick didn't like him and the organization - wrongly and I Said so at the time - thought that Amendola would be a fine ersatz-Welker. And they were wrong because while Amendola is probably more athletic than Welker, he cannot stay on the field; he cannot stay healthy.

There is a mitigating factor to this, namely that at the time the Pats allowed Welker to die on the vine, they honestly thought Hernandez would be on the team. Well....

[BLU-RAY]

That was funny.

I never saw Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Wes Welker, Tony Gonzalez, Heinz Ward, or Donald Driver pull shit like that in the endzone. They're supposed to be professionals, and as such should not pull petty stunts to look cool.

Didn't Gonzalez invent the Tight End Dunking On The Goalposts After a Touchdown celebration? Pretty sure Driver has done the Lambeau Leap a billion times. And who knows about Welker, whose personality was extinguished by Darth Hoodie for most of his relevant years - the only time it shone through was the "best foot forward" interview, which was fantastic and got him benched. Harrison was an on-field robot; I'd rather have a guy who goofs off on the field than one who tools up off it. Michael Strahan had all manner of ludicrous sack dances; he was still pretty good.

ETA: On Around the Horn, assuming that was Jackie MacMullan, she's generally the best of the bunch on that show, and I think most of the blowhards on it recognize that. Adande is OK, but essentially everyone else on that show is a disaster. And everyone gets the picture over the face when eliminated. I didn't see that episode (I actually don't think I've watched an episode since last year sometime), but that is sort of the general tenor of that show.

And as bad as it is, it's not anywhere close to First Take, or Rome's show(s), or Cowherd or Mike and Mike.

[Jace, Extat]

Didn't Gonzalez invent the Tight End Dunking On The Goalposts After a Touchdown celebration? Pretty sure Driver has done the Lambeau Leap a billion times. And who knows about Welker, whose personality was extinguished by Darth Hoodie for most of his relevant years - the only time it shone through was the "best foot forward" interview, which was fantastic and got him benched. Harrison was an on-field robot; I'd rather have a guy who goofs off on the field than one who tools up off it. Michael Strahan had all manner of ludicrous sack dances; he was still pretty good.

I was referring more to hanging off the goalpost and breaking it like a jackass. It's not the first time he's done it.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

And as bad as it is, it's not anywhere close to First Take, or Rome's show(s), or Cowherd or Mike and Mike.

Eh, it's like judging the flavors of various turds. Some maybe marginally worse than others, but you don't want to eat any of them.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Gravity isn't as integral to the Pat's offense as Brady.

I agree with the first part of what you said, namely that letting Welker go was foolish, but specifically a "penny wise, pound foolish." The Pats knew Welker was not worth a franchise tag and were always hoping to get him for a home-town discount. Welker thought otherwise and went to the Broncos... for about the amount the Pats wanted to sign him for. I agree that the Pats should have made more an effort to sign him, but Belichick didn't like him and the organization - wrongly and I Said so at the time - thought that Amendola would be a fine ersatz-Welker. And they were wrong because while Amendola is probably more athletic than Welker, he cannot stay on the field; he cannot stay healthy.

There is a mitigating factor to this, namely that at the time the Pats allowed Welker to die on the vine, they honestly thought Hernandez would be on the team. Well....

Yeah, I spose I hypeboled a bit there. Let's just say that I think this was probably the worst personnel decision that Belichick has ever made. And it seems like he let personal feelings get in the way of that decision to some extent.

[BLU-RAY]

I was referring more to hanging off the goalpost and breaking it like a jackass. It's not the first time he's done it.

Eh. I think he should've gotten a Delay of Game penalty for breaking it, and that it's a stupid thing to do for that reason, but while I actually prefer my professional athletes to act like complete robots because I think it gives them an advantage (when it's natural, not when it's forced), I thought the bent goalpost was the most entertaining thing about the game last night until the fourth quarter.

Eh, it's like judging the flavors of various turds. Some maybe marginally worse than others, but you don't want to eat any of them.

Depressingly accurate analogy. I will now go start drinking to forget it.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Depressingly accurate analogy. I will now go start drinking to forget it.

:cheers:

[Rockroi]

Yeah, I spose I hypeboled a bit there. Let's just say that I think this was probably the worst personnel decision that Belichick has ever made. And it seems like he let personal feelings get in the way of that decision to some extent.

In the short run, yeah, I would have to agree. Amendola v. Welker numbers this season are pretty one-sided. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. In many ways, that move shifted the balance of power, inexorably, to Denver. If Welker is still with the Pats, instead of with Denver, Denver is still really good, but they are probably not the powerhouse they have evolved into. Further, Brady has 0 games where he is throwing to the "sisters of the poor," but has Welker to effect Brady's strength's- dependable receivers, short passing game, throw defenses into fits etc. The Pats are a far better offense with a healthy Welker than with any other receiver, even ones like Edelman and Amendola who mimic him.

But the long term? Its hard to overstate how important it is to keep your money from getting tied up in aging players who have to be paid (certain rules make vet players' salaries guaranteed at certain points). Further, Amendola is far more athletic than welker and, much younger. Welker's numbers are great, but they are definitely down over his final few years with the Pats. As time goes on its very possible that those numbers tilt back on the Pats' favor.

Or at least that's what I tell myself when I am crying myself to sleep at night.

The major gripe I have is whether or not Belichick acted out of spite and vindictiveness because Welker would not agree to a hometown discount (or other reasons). I think Belichick does have a bit of "I'm Bill Belichick, bitch" in him and if that's the case (and it DOES appear that it is) then this was not well thought out, planned for, or executed.

[trickster]

In the short run, yeah, I would have to agree. Amendola v. Welker numbers this season are pretty one-sided. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. In many ways, that move shifted the balance of power, inexorably, to Denver. If Welker is still with the Pats, instead of with Denver, Denver is still really good, but they are probably not the powerhouse they have evolved into. Further, Brady has 0 games where he is throwing to the "sisters of the poor," but has Welker to effect Brady's strength's- dependable receivers, short passing game, throw defenses into fits etc. The Pats are a far better offense with a healthy Welker than with any other receiver, even ones like Edelman and Amendola who mimic him.

But the long term? Its hard to overstate how important it is to keep your money from getting tied up in aging players who have to be paid (certain rules make vet players' salaries guaranteed at certain points). Further, Amendola is far more athletic than welker and, much younger. Welker's numbers are great, but they are definitely down over his final few years with the Pats. As time goes on its very possible that those numbers tilt back on the Pats' favor.

Or at least that's what I tell myself when I am crying myself to sleep at night.

The major gripe I have is whether or not Belichick acted out of spite and vindictiveness because Welker would not agree to a hometown discount (or other reasons). I think Belichick does have a bit of "I'm Bill Belichick, bitch" in him and if that's the case (and it DOES appear that it is) then this was not well thought out, planned for, or executed.

Weaker's deal is only for 2 years. He will still be productive next year. That's not tying money to an unproductive ageing player. In all fairness they did not know that Hernandez was a homicidal maniac. But still getting Welker for 2 years for 6 million per year is a bargain. And good observation that by loosing Welker not only NE got weaker, their big rival got stronger. So this was twice as bad.

[Jace, Extat]

Around the Horn. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villiany. Let's face it, ESPN has become the MTV of Sports Entertainment. PTI, Rome is Burning, Mike and Mike, The Herd, etc, etc. The only network that can compete with ESPN for absolute shiat programming is MTV or maybe The Disney Channel.

ETA: On Around the Horn, assuming that was Jackie MacMullan, she's generally the best of the bunch on that show, and I think most of the blowhards on it recognize that. Adande is OK, but essentially everyone else on that show is a disaster. And everyone gets the picture over the face when eliminated. I didn't see that episode (I actually don't think I've watched an episode since last year sometime), but that is sort of the general tenor of that show.

And as bad as it is, it's not anywhere close to First Take, or Rome's show(s), or Cowherd or Mike and Mike.

Eh, it's like judging the flavors of various turds. Some maybe marginally worse than others, but you don't want to eat any of them.

MacMullan is the one! I knew it was a Mac-something. Thanks for the info, I don't know that I've ever turned ESPN on willingly (I've seen it at work, or at the dentist, etc...) and I don't think I will be doing so again. Mr. Ray, you say that they recognize her points, but I just didn't see it, zero respect for another human being. The only thing I can say in their defense is that right before I walked out of the room, they were discussing that some group in the NFL wants to eliminate the use of the N-word on the field (by players during the game) and they all seemed to think it was a great idea (while admitting that it was unfeasible).

Eh. I think he should've gotten a Delay of Game penalty for breaking it, and that it's a stupid thing to do for that reason, but while I actually prefer my professional athletes to act like complete robots because I think it gives them an advantage (when it's natural, not when it's forced), I thought the bent goalpost was the most entertaining thing about the game last night until the fourth quarter.

I seem to be alone in this line of thought, so I'll leave it alone (like how I left alone the fact that The Patriots Got Out Played On Monday Night :P ) I guess I'm just spoiled on the consummate professionalism that was the Indianapolis Colts players. (The most excessive celebration used to be Dwight Freeney's salute.) It actually makes me sad that a thug like Eric Walden is on my team (feebly connected), I just like a little poise.

Weaker's deal is only for 2 years. He will still be productive next year. That's not tying money to an unproductive ageing player. In all fairness they did not know that Hernandez was a homicidal maniac. But still getting Welker for 2 years for 6 million per year is a bargain. And good observation that by loosing Welker not only NE got weaker, their big rival got stronger. So this was twice as bad.

I agree with this on all points. I actually listened to Brian Baldinger try to explain that Danny Amendola "does the exact same thing as Wes Welker". I would say that he TRIES, but he's just not the same. Sure, he's more athletic, but Wes had freakish control of his body and an understanding of defenses that transcends any Slot Receiver including Reggie Wayne (Reggie played a lot of Slot since 2009). He's worth well over 6 million annually.

So what happens to QB's in contracts since the Flacco Flop? Does it drive down the value guys like Cam Newton can get, or does it increase it? I like to think that Andrew Luck will sign for a reasonable salary after next year, but I know that if he asks for 30 million, Jim Irsay will be begging him to take 28 million.

[Rockroi]

Weaker's deal is only for 2 years. He will still be productive next year. That's not tying money to an unproductive ageing player.

Yeah, but that's not what he asked the Pats for; he wanted a lot more than that.

This actually leads to a very strange story that developed AFTER Welker left but before he signed with Denver. Apparently, after he told the Pats to shove their offer, he tested the free-agent market, only to find that teams were not offering him the money he had asked the Pas for (rumor was Welker wanted "Megatron money"). He then- according to Robert and Jonathan Kraft -asked the Pats if he could come back to the Pats. But at that point, the Pats had already signed Amendola, thus ending the chance for another receiver at that price-point. Only then did Welker sign with Denver.

Is this true?

It WAS reported here: http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/9067256/new-england-patriots-owner-robert-kraft-blames-agents-wes-welker-exit back in March and, just to beat this dead horse, this was when Aaron Hernandez was not behind bars.

Err... seems a bit convenient and fishy to me. BUT, there evidence Welker had a culture shock to how much money he was not worth. After all the year prior the Pats had to franchize him and his salary was much more than 6 mil.

The story also reports that Welker's agent didn't outright deny the story, only that the Pats never increased their offer.

With all that said, I don't get why you wouldn't want Amendola AND Welker.... Unless, of course, your coach is a puppy-killer.

[Rhom]

Eh. I think he should've gotten a Delay of Game penalty for breaking it, and that it's a stupid thing to do for that reason, but while I actually prefer my professional athletes to act like complete robots because I think it gives them an advantage (when it's natural, not when it's forced), I thought the bent goalpost was the most entertaining thing about the game last night until the fourth quarter.

What was impressive to me was how easily it broke... I've seen goalposts have 30 or more college kids hanging off them and jumping up and down on them like a trampoline after a big win; but one dude hangs on this one and it goes down? Odd.

[Jaime L]

With all that said, I don't get why you wouldn't want Amendola AND Welker.... Unless, of course, your coach is a puppy-killer.

Through the power of technology I can provide a glimpse what a receiving corps of Amendola, Welker and Edelman would look like.

Check out the sick coordination!

[Slurktan]

MacMullan is the one! I knew it was a Mac-something. Thanks for the info, I don't know that I've ever turned ESPN on willingly (I've seen it at work, or at the dentist, etc...) and I don't think I will be doing so again. Mr. Ray, you say that they recognize her points, but I just didn't see it, zero respect for another human being. The only thing I can say in their defense is that right before I walked out of the room, they were discussing that some group in the NFL wants to eliminate the use of the N-word on the field (by players during the game) and they all seemed to think it was a great idea (while admitting that it was unfeasible).

Around the Horn is a bad show. What you described happens any time any of the reporters screws up a name (or misspeaks and says the wrong team etc) male or female.

[BLU-RAY]

Oh, I don't think they recognize her points, that would require cognitive ability. I just think that most of them recognize that she's a better sports reporter than they are. Which she is.

[Mexal]

What? A Seattle defensive player being suspended for 4 games for substance abuse? Would never believe that.

Ian Rapoport ‏@RapSheet

3m

#Seahawks CB Walter Thurmond facing a 4-game suspension for violating @NFL’s Policy of Substances Abuse. Dropping appeal early this week

[Mexal]

It just gets worse for RG3.

Report saying that RG3 has asked the coaches to stop showing negative plays on film. How are you supposed to learn if you refuse to look at the negative plays?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

It just gets worse for RG3.

Report saying that RG3 has asked the coaches to stop showing negative plays on film. How are you supposed to learn if you refuse to look at the negative plays?

It sounds like he's only asking them not show his negative play in meetings. It's not good, but I don't think it's that big a deal.

To me the media backlash against RGIII sounds a lot like the backlash against Cam Newton last year.

[Mexal]

It sounds like he's only asking them not show his negative play in meetings. It's not good, but I don't think it's that big a deal.

To me the media backlash against RGIII sounds a lot like the backlash against Cam Newton last year.

I agree. It does feel very similar.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Around the Horn is a bad show. What you described happens any time any of the reporters screws up a name (or misspeaks and says the wrong team etc) male or female.

All this Around the Horn talk got me thinking. I believe that this show with the right cast could be put in the "so bad it's good" category. Just imagine if they could wrangle up all the most controversial personalities that ESPN has on their roster and jam them all into one craptastic show . You could have a panel consisting of Skip Bayless, Stephen A Smith, JIm Rome and Colin Cowherd. Get Scott Ferral to host it, and you're done. :cool4: