R+L=J v.114

[finger]

In any event, Ashara Dayne is a very convenient character. She'll meddle, or be suspect to, in the important joints, always veiled by mystery. Let's see HH.

We're told she was there, because she was in Rhaegar's trail. She caught some people's eye, she danced with both BS (Barristan and Brandon), and Ned Stark. She was somehow disgraced, She looked to the Starks.

Afterward, we are told she had a daughter, or stillborn, that's not clear, and she throw herself from a tower. All that happened while RR, and I wouldn't take it all at face value, since those were hazardous times. I guess news aren't truly reliable. At least, in the books, the war facts are hazy.

BS gives a confusing account. He had a crush on AD and many years after, he's still rueful when he remembers. The poor old sucker still thinks that should he had won the tourney, he could have had some action with AD. That's strange coming from a respectful white cloak. Or he might think about preventing Rhaegar from crowning Lyanna. That would be still stranger, for mixing things up. No wonder BS also stands for bullshit, or he's just growing old. (For if you haven't noticed, I don't think BS is tooo clever, to say the least,) Anyhow, AD looked to Stark, or was it Raeghar? You know, BS has many issues to fix.

Anyway... HH was an alibi for conspiracy, but the high lords are conspicuous for their absence. Where were Lord Stark, Lord Arryn or Lord Tully? (Instead, there were Starks children, and Arryn's wards. And we know about the Tullys marriages when war raged. Where the old ones conspiring somewhere?)

But, coming back to HH, what happened between ice and fire? Brandon has Ned and Ashara dancing together, Raeghar crowns Lyanna,... Well, it seems there's something going on down there. Southern ambitions? It looks ike they were building an alliance.

Of course, we can guess that Raeghar and Lyanna took it too far, and it ended up badly, because love is the bane of everything, and so on... love, love will tear us apart, again, lalalala :cool4:

[finger]

...

We've crossed messages. I see some peculiar things around HH have struk the both of us.

[Greymoon]

We've crossed messages. I see some peculiar things around HH have struk the both of us.

Yes... you know, I'm almost tempted to see Ashara as an agent of Rhaegar's (+ Elia); and that Ashara was meant to seduce one of the Stark boys, to help Rhaegar's cause along...though, it's difficult to chose between Ashara as a rape victim ; Ashara as Brandon's lover independently of anything else; or Ashara as Rhaegar's/Elia's co-conspirator (Ashara as the Arianne Martell of HH).

[Ser Leftwich]

We're told she was there, because she was in Rhaegar's trail. She caught some people's eye, she danced with both BS (Barristan and Brandon), and Ned Stark. She was somehow disgraced, She looked to the Starks.

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only have the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench." - AsoS p. 340

Ashara danced with, definitely: Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington and Ned Stark. She also danced with someone in the Kingsguard 'white sword' ( we can only be sure that it was not Jaime). Not Brandon.

On the balance of chance, Arthur Dayne or Lewyn Martell, Dornish family/friends seems more likely than Darry, Whent, Hightower, or Selmy.

Also, while anyone in the KG can be referred to as a 'white sword' the rest of the examples in the Reed's story are visual metaphors and Arthur Dayne carries Dawn, a white sword. More chance that it was Arthur.

Lastly, Barristan doesn't mention dancing with Ashara (this is not really evidence, but it seems worth mentioning).

[Alia of the knife]

Do you think you could dig the thread? I would but it's rather late here.

- Not that there is any doubt about the name, given that we know exactly two women connected to Rhaegar, Elia and Lyanna, and he was "fond of" the former and loved the latter :-)

On the App. discussion thread........

Much like a quest, I found it. :drool:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77776-stuff-thats-confirmedhinted-at-in-awoiaf-app-v2/

[Ygrain]

Much like a quest, I found it. :drool:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77776-stuff-thats-confirmedhinted-at-in-awoiaf-app-v2/

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Now, Apple says it's new and/or confirmed information, and it's from December 2012. I joined a year earlier, and I am fairly sure that the confirmation of the name being Lyanna was already around at that time, and definitely pre-app. Is it known when the work on the app began? ADWD was released mid-2011 and after "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", the ambiguity of "a woman's name" ceased to exist and GRRM could freely confirm it. I couldn't find it anywhere in the textual SSMs or links to the interviews, but I couldn't go through the videos.

[Alia of the knife]

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Now, Apple says it's new and/or confirmed information, and it's from December 2012. I joined a year earlier, and I am fairly sure that the confirmation of the name being Lyanna was already around at that time, and definitely pre-app. Is it known when the work on the app began? ADWD was released mid-2011 and after "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", the ambiguity of "a woman's name" ceased to exist and GRRM could freely confirm it. I couldn't find it anywhere in the textual SSMs or links to the interviews, but I couldn't go through the videos.

:D

It was, but I don't think it had been solidified in writing.

This just confirms the floating speculation, and gives an actual reference for it now.

Like I said, the App. confirms some things, debunks others, while still vague and "cagey" with some of the current stuff, (as well some past incidents), to keep it mysterious until he lays it out in the books.

My feeling is that his characters and the history have become so expansive that the App., and the WB, as well as his short stories serve to as "companion" pieces to help fill in the blanks, and lay the groundwork for what he will ultimately reveal or else we might be looking at twelve books. :blink:

[J. Stargaryen]

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf... but only have the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench." - AsoS p. 340

Ashara danced with, definitely: Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington and Ned Stark. She also danced with someone in the Kingsguard 'white sword' ( we can only be sure that it was not Jaime). Not Brandon.

On the balance of chance, Arthur Dayne or Lewyn Martell, Dornish family/friends seems more likely than Darry, Whent, Hightower, or Selmy.

Also, while anyone in the KG can be referred to as a 'white sword' the rest of the examples in the Reed's story are visual metaphors and Arthur Dayne carries Dawn, a white sword. More chance that it was Arthur.

Lastly, Barristan doesn't mention dancing with Ashara (this is not really evidence, but it seems worth mentioning).

I don't really think so. In AGoT there are several example where the KG are referred to as white swords. I didn't bother searching the rest of the novels.

White Sword = KG:

“A paper shield,” the eunuch said. “Try not to look so shocked, Lord Stark. Jaime Lannister is himself a Sworn Brother of the White Swords, and we all know what his oath is worth.”

“Put down the stick, girl,” Ser Meryn told her. “I am a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard, the White Swords.”

Ser Barristan Selmy, resplendent in white plate, led them in. Ser Arys Oakheart escorted the queen, while Ser Boros Blount walked beside Joffrey, so six of the Kingsguard were now in the hall, all the White Swords save Jaime Lannister alone.”

Sansa watched as the knight peered up at his new king. She had never seen him look his years before, yet now he did. “Your Grace,” he said. “I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year.”

“Your time is done,” Cersei Lannister announced. “Joffrey requires men around him who are young and strong. The council has determined that Ser Jaime Lannister will take your place as the Lord Commander of Sworn Brothers of the White Swords.”

All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

- Link

ETA: I see you were part of that discussion.

[Ser Leftwich]

I don't really think so. In AGoT there are several example where the KG are referred to as white swords. I didn't bother searching the rest of the novels.

- Link

ETA: I see you were part of that discussion.

The only reference to a "white sword" that is not referring to the KG collectively or generally is, "It's that white sword of yours I want," that the Smiling Knight said to Arthur Dayne, as Jaime remembers it.

I feel like that gives Arthur 1% more chance than the other five KG. :cool4:

ETA: How about this split?

Dayne = 20%, Each of the other five = 16% each?

[J. Stargaryen]

The only reference to a "white sword" that is not referring to the KG collectively or generally is, "It's that white sword of yours I want," that the Smiling Knight said to Arthur Dayne, as Jaime remembers it.

I feel like that gives Arthur 1% more chance than the other five KG. :cool4:

I suppose that is fair.

[Kingmonkey]

With regards to the name on Rhaegar's lips and "fan fiction" --

Prior to the app, that the name was Lyanna appears to have been purely speculative. I took a quick look at a thread discussing it just before the release of the app, and nobody seemed to have anything to quote from GRRM on the topic.

The app could be wrong. It might be that there was a deliberate choice to put in information that was assumed in-world but assumed incorrectly. It might be that this was something that should have been confirmed with GRRM before going into the text, but wasn't. It's not likely though, particularly given how widely that piece of information has been quoted since.

I believe it's also stated in the app that Whent, Hightower and Dayne were ordered by Rhaegar to stay at the ToJ to guard Lyanna, but plenty of people are not wholly sold on that, either. Anything that's in the app or the WOIAF book might be wrong. Neither are presented as an omniscient source, and both are made in collaboration with GRRM rather than purely by him.

However, let's be clear about this fan fiction thing. These are official sources. Fan fiction is fiction written by a fan of the material that is not intended to portray the canon events, but rather to tell an original story with characters and details borrowed from the material.

The app is not fan fiction.

TWOIAF is not fan fiction.

Someone's theory about what happened off-page, even if it's based on the slimmest of evidence, even if you disagree with it, is not fan fiction. It might be a terrible guess, but it's still not fan fiction. Using the term as a way to disparage someone's theory just makes it look like you don't have any decent counter argument.

[IceFire125]

Some connections I found, although, most of you here probably have looked into it.

Barristan telling Dany that Rhaegar sleeps at Summerhall often, sleeping under moon and stars (looking at the constellation--Moonmaid, specifically, The Red Wanderer)...

Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song.

Jon recalling about the moment he stole Ygritte...

So many stars, he thought... the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

I believe Rhaegar knew about the 'Thief', but only to realize fully when Lyanna confessed to him that he had stole her... I think GRRM is clever with this 3-level-revelation strategy here.

As Rhaegar saw the tKotLT undoing 'his' mismatched armor, he then got the jump on him, place the dagger on his neck, but then realized that it was a girl (Lyanna), confused, he hesitated on killing her, the same thing happened to Jon with Ygritte. So just like with Jon, Lyanna felt the connection with Rhaegar, thus felt that he had 'stole' her right there and then. That happened when it was at night, it's also when the Thief was shining brightest.

---

Now compare with this 3-level-revelation strategy with Jon and Gilly, encompassing to what happened with Ned and Lyanna, and his kept and broken promises.

“They’ll burn my babe, then. The red woman. If she can’t have Dalla’s, she’ll burn mine.”

“Your son has no king’s blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. [Jon's (Ned's) promises] Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “[Jon's future foreshadowed was Ned's broken promises] And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.”

Ned's feeling of broken, deep sorrow and shame when he was in the cell, was because he realized that he did not fulfill his promises completely to Lyanna... to have Jon know about his royal heritage, it was this feeling that Ned wished he could see Jon just one more time, to sit and talk with him.

[Alia of the knife]

And the other thing that I caught is the reference to the moon.

Given the imagery surrounding the Starks, and especially Lyanna and Arya, I have always imagined that their beauty to be like the moon.

[MtnLion]

The only reference to a "white sword" that is not referring to the KG collectively or generally is, "It's that white sword of yours I want," that the Smiling Knight said to Arthur Dayne, as Jaime remembers it.

I feel like that gives Arthur 1% more chance than the other five KG. :cool4:

ETA: How about this split?

Dayne = 20%, Each of the other five = 16% each?

Actually, since Ashara danced with a white sword, I discount Arthur by that 1% or more, since she certainly didn't take the sword from her brother to dance with it. I may be in left field, but it just doesn't feel right that Ashara dancing with her brother would not be referred to in the story as brother and sister.

[Ser Leftwich]

Actually, since Ashara danced with a white sword, I discount Arthur by that 1% or more, since she certainly didn't take the sword from her brother to dance with it. I may be in left field, but it just doesn't feel right that Ashara dancing with her brother would not be referred to in the story as brother and sister.

IIRC, the (semi-official) Dayne sigil a white sword and a failing star. Another possibility is Lord Dayne, Ashara's father or elder, unnamed brother, and not one of the KG. (Though for some reason that makes less story sense to me.)

If the Reed family, and crannogmen in general, are so removed from Westerosi society, referring to everyone as bears, moose, and vipers makes sense. That being said, do the KG have little white swords as insignia/cloak pins?

And for that matter, do the KG keep some family embellishments in their uniforms, doesn't Whent have a bat on his helmet? Heck, Jaime, kept/keeps a whole set of gold/lion armor! Hmmm.

Though, knowing who the red viper is could be telling.

Or is it just GRRM hedging his bets, to be able to say which one of the KG, specifically, Ashara danced with at some later point in the story. Or who the 'white sword' was/is in not relevant.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

Or is it just GRRM hedging his bets, to be able to say which one of the KG, specifically, Ashara danced with at some later point in the story. Or who the 'white sword' was/is in not relevant.

Who Ashara danced with is not relevant. ;) "A man dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal", and I think it could be any of the men present. Robert and the Red Viper both have a history of dishonoring women. Aerys is known to be a rapist. Barristan is being cagey, he doesn't let us know everything that he knows. (GRRM is doing it on purpose, he did not want to make Barristan a POV, but was forced to, to solve the Meereenese knot.) Harrenhal was a year before the Robellion, and two years before Jon was born. I am not certain of where we are going with the discussion.

[Ser Leftwich]

Who Ashara danced with is not relevant. ;) "A man dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal", and I think it could be any of the men present. Robert and the Red Viper both have a history of dishonoring women. Aerys is known to be a rapist. Barristan is being cagey, he doesn't let us know everything that he knows. (GRRM is doing it on purpose, he did not want to make Barristan a POV, but was forced to, to solve the Meereenese knot.) Harrenhal was a year before the Robellion, and two years before Jon was born. I am not certain of where we are going with the discussion.

Sorry, I was getting OT. Corrected someone above about who danced with whom and went off on a tangent.

[MtnLion]

Some connections I found, although, most of you here probably have looked into it.

Barristan telling Dany that Rhaegar sleeps at Summerhall often, sleeping under moon and stars (looking at the constellation--Moonmaid, specifically, The Red Wanderer)...

Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song.

Jon recalling about the moment he stole Ygritte...

So many stars, he thought... the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

I believe Rhaegar knew about the 'Thief', but only to realize fully when Lyanna confessed to him that he had stole her... I think GRRM is clever with this 3-level-revelation strategy here.

As Rhaegar saw the tKotLT undoing 'his' mismatched armor, he then got the jump on him, place the dagger on his neck, but then realized that it was a girl (Lyanna), confused, he hesitated on killing her, the same thing happened to Jon with Ygritte. So just like with Jon, Lyanna felt the connection with Rhaegar, thus felt that he had 'stole' her right there and then. That happened when it was at night, it's also when the Thief was shining brightest.

---

Now compare with this 3-level-revelation strategy with Jon and Gilly, encompassing to what happened with Ned and Lyanna, and his kept and broken promises.

“They’ll burn my babe, then. The red woman. If she can’t have Dalla’s, she’ll burn mine.”

“Your son has no king’s blood. Melisandre gains nothing by giving him to the fire. Stannis wants the free folk to fight for him, he will not burn an innocent without good cause. [Jon's (Ned's) promises] Your boy will be safe. I will find a wet nurse for him and he’ll be raised here at Castle Black under my protection. He’ll learn to hunt and ride, to fight with sword and axe and bow. I’ll even see that he is taught to read and write.” Sam would like that. “[Jon's future foreshadowed was Ned's broken promises] And when he is old enough, he will learn the truth of who he is. He’ll be free to seek you out if that is what he wants.”

Ned's feeling of broken, deep sorrow and shame when he was in the cell, was because he realized that he did not fulfill his promises completely to Lyanna... to have Jon know about his royal heritage, it was this feeling that Ned wished he could see Jon just one more time, to sit and talk with him.

:agree: Absotutely the same thoughts that I have always had, and amazing to see that they are actually in the text. Ned failed the reveal, but succeeded at nearly everything else. I think that the reveal was to come with a pledge to his rightful king that he would do everything in his power to place him on the throne. It was fortuitous that Robert dictated his will to Ned, and Ned had the chance to fix the wording, ever so slightly. ;)

[corbon]

IIRC, the (semi-official) Dayne sigil a white sword and a failing star. Another possibility is Lord Dayne, Ashara's father or elder, unnamed brother, and not one of the KG. (Though for some reason that makes less story sense to me.)

Agreed. thats an option that hasn't been explored really. But like you, it doesn;t feel right. Not that thats a reason to dismiss it of course.

If the Reed family, and crannogmen in general, are so removed from Westerosi society, referring to everyone as bears, moose, and vipers makes sense. That being said, do the KG have little white swords as insignia/cloak pins?

I don't recall any such thing.

Their shields, for example, are famously blank.

Though that leads both ways.

OT1H if they don't have any insignia, and presumably the dancer was not in armour (or 'on duty') at the time, then how would the little crannogman have identified the dancer as a 'white sword'.

If they do sometmes carry personal insignia, especially if off-duty, then there is no doubt really it must have been Arthur Dayne.

And frankly, it would be surprising if Ashara had not danced with Arthur at some stage. Here she is, newly come to court, a maid, surely big brother would be helping her fit in (and discretely semi-chaperoning her) when his duties allow?

And for that matter, do the KG keep some family embellishments in their uniforms, doesn't Whent have a bat on his helmet? Heck, Jaime, kept/keeps a whole set of gold/lion armor! Hmmm.

They do. And Hightower is known on occasion as the White Bull.

Its a personal opinion, but to me the white sword is at least twice as likely Arthur Dayne than any of the other KG.

[J. Stargaryen]

Agreed. thats an option that hasn't been explored really. But like you, it doesn;t feel right. Not that thats a reason to dismiss it of course.

I don't recall any such thing.

Their shields, for example, are famously blank.

Though that leads both ways.

OT1H if they don't have any insignia, and presumably the dancer was not in armour (or 'on duty') at the time, then how would the little crannogman have identified the dancer as a 'white sword'.

If they do sometmes carry personal insignia, especially if off-duty, then there is no doubt really it must have been Arthur Dayne.

And frankly, it would be surprising if Ashara had not danced with Arthur at some stage. Here she is, newly come to court, a maid, surely big brother would be helping her fit in (and discretely semi-chaperoning her) when his duties allow?

They do. And Hightower is known on occasion as the White Bull.

Its a personal opinion, but to me the white sword is at least twice as likely Arthur Dayne than any of the other KG.

I think this is probably what GRRM would like the reader to assume. Still, I think there's a good chance that Ashara's mystery lover was Lewyn Martell, himself a white sword, and therefore the KG she danced with at HH. Maybe I'll post a thread on the topic, though most of the evidence in favor can be found starting here. It doesn't seem like this scenario gets a lot of credit, but there's more to it than the Brandon + Ashara theories.