Ashara Chose Ned

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Ive always been puzzled by the general take-away from ADWD that Brandon Stark deflowered Ashara Dayne. When I read the relevant passages in Barristans chapters, my only thought was how this continued to support the belief I already had, which is that Ashara and Ned had a love affair, which ended up leading to her possible death. I mean, Barry even says that she turned to Stark! We have previous evidence throughout all the books that they could have been in love, see Neds reaction to Catelyn about Ashara, Aryas encounter with Ned Dayne, the story Jojen tells Bran, and the general rumors about the pair that we know reached Catelyn. There are no rumors about Brandon and Ashara, as far as we know, and its hardly like anyone could get Brandon and Ned confused with each other.

So, obviously I think that Ashara chose / turned to Ned Stark, not Brandon Stark.

The timeline I envision certainly has some gaps (where we dont know where people are). But, I think its possible they could have gotten together in several of those grey periods (either between Harrenhal and Brandons death, or during the war itself, or both). As far as we know, neither of them is pinned in place.

Since Ive seen a lot of arguments on this topic, and it seems that few people share my view, I thought I would go through the principal ones and why I dont find them convincing.

Arguments in favor of Brandon / against Ned

Brandons a badboy/ladiesman (Neds a nice guy / not as attractive) and we all know that hot girls only want hot badboys (homely nice guys always finish last), I mean look at Dany with Daario (Jorah)!!

Ok I hope we can all agree that this argument is juvenile and sexist. It treats Ashara like a cheerleader stereotype who is incapable of having preferences or making choices. Also there are countless examples of hot women choosing non-traditionally hot men in the series for a variety of romantic and nonromantic reasons, Jorah and Lynesse are a prime example of the former.

Guess what? Some women think hotheaded badboys are sexy, and other women think they are stupid. Some women dont notice quiet nice boys, some women are drawn to them. Any argument about the plot of the series built around the premise that all women are alike should immediately be dismissed.

Brandons the heir to WF/Ned doesnt have a claim! If she was going to pick one of them for political / ladder climbing reasons, shed pick Brandon!

Ashara would have known that Brandon was engaged to someone way above her own station in Catelyn Tully, whereas Ned was unattached. Chasing Brandon and his claim to WF when hes already engaged is stupid, especially given Brandon has a reputation for seducing and discarding noble ladies. If we are going to assume Ashara didnt follow her heart but was just a golddigger (which is not a good argument anyway what evidence do we have that shes like that?), then Ned is a much better mark. Hes the 2nd in line for WF after Brandon and hes the 2nd son of the Stark in Winterfell and will definitely get a holdfast/ important position somewhere. Ned Stark is an excellent if unusual match for a Dayne daughter despite their fame the Daynes are only a minor house.

Barristan says that someone (probably a Stark) dishonored Ashara but he thought Ned was an honorable man decades later!

First, we dont know for sure that the person who dishonored Ashara was the Stark that Barristan later says Ashara turned to. It is technically possible that someone dishonored Ashara (in some way?) and someone else was who she turned to (could be as a lover or a friend). This possibility has led to a variety of theories about how the dishonor-er was someone other than a Stark, usually Rhaegar or Aerys.

But lets say for the sake of argument that both the dishonor-er and the Stark she turned to were either Ned or Brandon.

Barry was in love with Ashara in the way that someone can be in love with someone they barely know. That is to say he put her on a pedestal. Also, Barry is someone who made a conscious choice to live his life celibate hence he probably values chastity much more than most people. Plus, theres sour grapes. If Ashara had Neds child, and then died for him, Barristan might see the first as a dishonor (since they werent yet married), but their later romance as a great tragedy that was no ones fault. In the end, he would forgive Ned for being successfully seduced by a beautiful woman that Barry himself loved. He would know that the Daynes hold no ill will towards Ned indeed they seem to respect him so deeply that they nicknamed a child after him. Doesnt mean he wouldnt consider Ashara losing her virginity in the first place to be dishonorable. Barristan is quite fond of Robert despite the fact that he dishonored women everywhere he went.

Second, who would you rather turn to in a crisis (whatever that was for her)? A flaky dude that pumps and dumps women all over Westeros, or a stern, honorable, respectful and respectable person who you know holds honor above all else?

Ned would never ever ever ever have sex outside marriage because hes a flawless honor robot

Ned is a human not a robot. The fact that Ned could have fathered a bastard (or maybe even did), I think makes Neds relationship with Jon all the more poignant.

Plus, whats to say that originally Ashara and Ned werent planning to get married? I think Ashara could have convinced Ned that it was no sin if they loved each other and wanted to be together their kids wouldnt be bastards, so who would be harmed? I find it to be stretching disbelief that Ned would not sleep with Ashara in this situation (assuming the premise that hes in love with her). If they slept together after Ned was married, well, thats Ned following his heart instead of his head like so many characters do hes in love with Ashara but married to Cat. If he met his lover during the war, having just been married to someone he doesnt love and bedding her dutifully, having a one last time encounter is a mistake that even Ned could make.

If Ashara was so important to Ned, why didnt he think about her more?

Same two reasons he barely thought about Lyanna. First, it was incredibly painful to remember. Second, George doesnt want us to know what happened back then. Starfall was the first place Ned went after the ToJ (he delivered Arthurs sword to his family and picked up a wet nurse for Jon). Ashara would have known as much about Jons birth as Ned does. Thinking of her would have led to thinking about Jon.

Furthermore, the one time that Ashara is brought up in Neds presence is the only time that Ned ever actually scared Catelyn. She is deeply important to him.

Any thoughts? If you think Ashara chose Brandon, why? If you think she chose Ned, Id love to hear any additional evidence you have for this theory!

[Ser Leftwich]

Barristan does not think ill of Ned Stark. For how he thinks about the situation and Ashara in ADwD, Barristan would hold a grudge against "Stark." So, Ned does not make any sense. Point against it being Ned.

[Pox Americana]

To me, Ned's dismissal to Cat of Jon's parentage in relation to Ashara is like the US governments dismissal of aliens at Area 51. It's meant to draw away from the real truth of what really happened be it experimental aircraft or what have you, within the context of the story R+L=J. That doesn't mean it couldn't ALSO have been a sore subject anyway-- Cat and Ned's marriage was out of necessity, but I do find it reasonable that Ned had interests in marriage prospects elsewhere prior to Brandon's death. I definitely agree that it could've been Ned at Harrenhall, not Brandon, but I don't think that that necessarily means it was Ned that Ser Barristan was referring to (though it does seem likely). That part's left intentionally vague.

We're missing part of the story. The Daynes come up way too often for them to not be important for some reason. How Ned figured in probably has to do with Jon, but it remains to be seen.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Ned became angry with Cat not because of Ashara but because of his promise to his sister. He did not want it mentioned to at Winterfell because he did not want any speculation on the mother of Jon at all. He was protecting his sister and her son.

Its possible that Ned loved Ashara, its just as possible she loved Brandon or Benjen. Or, its possible she loved none of them. She danced with Ned at Harrenhal, but only after his brother Brandon spoke to her for him. He may have danced with her just to be polite. I have also speculated that it may have been Benjen and after she lost their child and killed herself, that is the reason he took the black.

I know the Daynes are important to this story and we'll find out more about them in the WoW & ADOS. Right now its all speculation, which is fun, but not necessarily accurate.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Barristan does not think ill of Ned Stark. For how he thinks about the situation and Ashara in ADwD, Barristan would hold a grudge against "Stark." So, Ned does not make any sense. Point against it being Ned.

I didn't see it as all that negative. The only negative word used in the entire passage is "dishonored" and that might only mean that they had sex outside of marriage. Heck, given half a chance, Barry himself would have dishonored her.

He then goes on to wistfully wonder how things would have been different if she turned to him instead of Stark.

Indeed, Neds relationship with Ashara led to her presumed suicide, through no fault of Neds. In the narrative we get, Ned killed Arthur dayne and returned his sword, and at the same time told Ashara that he's leaving her forever to stay with Catelyn. So your lover killed your brother and is leaving you, but he has no choice! It's horribly tragic, of course Barristan wishes it hadn't happened. Doesnt mean he must think poorly of NED. None of what happened could have been predicted at harrenhal.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Ned became angry with Cat not because of Ashara but because of his promise to his sister. He did not want it mentioned to at Winterfell because he did not want any speculation on the mother of Jon at all. He was protecting his sister and her son.

It's way more interesting if both are true, though.

Its possible that Ned loved Ashara, its just as possible she loved Brandon or Benjen.

Thing is, there are tons of rumors about Ned and Ashara, but none about Brandon or benjen. Yes, ned could have cooked these up with the daynes to protect Jon, but it seems likely that if Barristan witnessed Brandon and Ashara doing something inappropriate, there would be rumors about that.

I know the Daynes are important to this story and we'll find out more about them in the WoW & ADOS. Right now its all speculation, which is fun, but not necessarily accurate.

Hey, speculation is all we have right now... :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think it's more likely that Ned had a crush on Ashara. Considering how pretty she was, I supposed he wasn't the only one. Also, Ned knows the whole story of Jon's origin. I'm sure it bothers him that his friendship (because I doubt it was more than that) to Ashara has made her target of rumours about them being lovers, specially in such lover who disgraced her was his own brother.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snippage}

Same two reasons he barely thought about Lyanna. {more snippage}

I would hardly describe Ned's memories of Lyanna as "barely thought". He thinks of her extremely often, both directly and indirectly (when he is remembering the promises, etc).

[aryagonnakill#2]

Well there are a lot of reasons why people would think Brandon and Ashara rather than Ned and Ashara.

1st Barristan uses the term dishonored, which could mean sex or could mean rape. Even if it means sex, your still saying that someone we otherwise know to be a virgin had the balls to bang the woman who was possible the sexiest at the tourney when he didn't even have the balls to talk to her, which seems a serious stretch to me. If it means rape, then we all know it wasn't Ned, and have been told by Lady Dustin "Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted"

2nd, we know things that Barristan does not know, for instance R+L=J, and that the story about what happened to Ashara may be very different from what actually happened. We are told she had a stillborn child, which if it was Neds baby from Harrenhall would have been born more than 3 months before Ned brought Dawn to Starfell, we are told she then jumped from a tower, but we do not know either of these things to be true.

Last, if Ned had sex with Ashara at Harrenhall, how would anyone have found out? Are you claiming Ned would have gone around bragging about it? I personally think that completely flies in the face of everything we know about Ned, but that if Brandon banged her he'd have been boasting about it the next day.

[Ser Leftwich]

There is also the mud vs. fire analogy.

"Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father’s son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever.

You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time." - ADwD p. 785

Ned is mud, notice now similar the description of Quentyn is to Ned.

Brandon is fire.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

your still saying that someone we otherwise know to be a virgin had the balls to bang the woman who was possible the sexiest at the tourney when he didn't even have the balls to talk to her,

Given Neds personality, I assume that it would be quite similar to Jon and Ygritte. Ned isnt "banging" anyone, if anything Ashara is banging him. 😘

2nd, we know things that Barristan does not know, for instance R+L=J, and that the story about what happened to Ashara may be very different from what actually happened.

Agreed. The true story includes Jon. IMO that's the part we aren't being told, Ashara is the true part.

Are you claiming Ned would have gone around bragging about it?

I personally think that completely flies in the face of everything we know about Ned, but that if Brandon banged her he'd have been boasting about it the next day.

This is part of why I think it was Ned. If it was Brandon, there would be actual rumors about B+A. Instead, there are only rumors about N+A.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

There is also the mud vs. fire analogy.

fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time." - ADwD p. 785

Brandon is fire.

I call BS. This is just another version of the juvenile and sexist argument that women only like bad boys / nice Guys finish last.

[Chebyshov]

Barristan's use of the word "dishonored" is questionable at best. He has very prude views and the rosiest of colored glasses. I also think it's a wild assumption that she was "deflowered" there (plus that word :ack: ).

Last, if Ned had sex with Ashara at Harrenhall, how would anyone have found out? Are you claiming Ned would have gone around bragging about it? I personally think that completely flies in the face of everything we know about Ned, but that if Brandon banged her he'd have been boasting about it the next day.

She got pregnant...may have been a tip-off. Though I'm of the mind it was Brandon.

[Ser Leftwich]

I call BS. This is just another version of the juvenile and sexist argument that women only like bad boys / nice Guys finish last.

"She regretted her rebuke. There was rain enough falling from the sky without her making more. And was it really such a terrible thing, to want a pretty wife? She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber. He spoke courteously enough, but beneath the words she sensed a coolness that was all at odds with Brandon, whose mirths had been as wild as his rages. Even when he took her maidenhood, their love had more of duty to it than of passion." - ASoS p. 624

You can call BS all you want, but it is right there in the books. More than once.

ETA: It is not an argument, it is quotes.

[Chebyshov]

Cat's subjective opinion of hotness in a guy has little to do with Ashara's choices in sexual partners. However, I do think with what we know of both Ned and Brandon's personality, the idea that Ned would have sex out of wedlock with Ashara at the tourney is highly unlikely.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Catelyn is not Ashara. Despite what you might think a lot of women prefer quieter plainer more serious men and are turned off by firey types like Brandon (his rages? Ew). That is my problem wih the mud vs fire analogy. It outright states that all young girls want the same thing. That's the BS.

[David Selig]

Ok I hope we can all agree that this argument is juvenile and sexist. It treats Ashara like a cheerleader stereotype who is incapable of having preferences or making choices. Also there are countless examples of hot women choosing non-traditionally hot men in the series for a variety of romantic and nonromantic reasons, Jorah and Lynesse are a prime example of the former.

Lynesse chose Jorah because he won a freaking tourney and crowned her Queen of Love and beauty. How is that not traditional? It's like the oldest romantic cliche in the Western tradition.

*edit* Just realised I completely misread your point, my bad, ignore this.

[Chebyshov]

Catelyn is not Ashara. Despite what you might think a lot of women prefer quieter plainer more serious men and are turned off by firey types like Brandon (his rages? Ew). That is my problem wih the mud vs fire analogy. It outright states that all young girls want the same thing. That's the BS.

Oh of course it's BS, but think of who said it: Barry. And he's the one who was overprotective about Ashara's vagina. Mayhaps his remark was coming from experience, and was a bit of a sore point. Keep in mind, he didn't approve of Dany's choice either.

[shadow282]

I like the Howland Reed and Ashara theory best. It makes more sense with most of the facts, and especially Edric Dayne.

If a man dishonored your sister, killed your brother, and caused your sister to kill herself why would you call your son by his nickname? It seems too weird to me.

Also Barristan is clearly not an unbiased observer. It's possible everything he's remembering are just rumors and assumptions he made.

[Ser Leftwich]

Catelyn is not Ashara. Despite what you might think a lot of women prefer quieter plainer more serious men and are turned off by firey types like Brandon (his rages? Ew). That is my problem wih the mud vs fire analogy. It outright states that all young girls want the same thing. That's the BS.

Give any other example.

Also, Jorah and Lynesse is not that great of an example, because she liked him because of his 'fire' of winning the tournament.

(I don't like this idea and don't think it holds true in RL, but it seems overwhelmingly to be the case in the books.)

Sansa loves Joffrey and dislikes Tyrion.

Brienne loves Renly.

Lysa disliked the idea of being married to an old man.

Cersei liked the look of Robert.

ETA: It is a silly, but understandable opinion to have as a Westerosi. There are plenty of examples of it being true, in the books. And it is Barristan's opinion.

ETFA:

Cersei likes Aurane Waters.

Asha prefers Qarl the Maid to Tristifer Botley.

Sansa likes the look of Loras and Sansa is repulsed by the Hound.

Cersei does not want to be married off to Oberyn or anyone.

Arienne.....