Alia of the knife Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Just ducking in to make a few quick observations. - Childbirth, even today is messy and can cause loss of life. Every woman is different, and every birth is different. Infection might find its roots in the initial birth, but can take time to manifest into full blown illness, which by that time without the treatment they have today, would be too late. - I like the theory of Mels vision of past and present, which is how she might come to know who Jon is, but I'm a little confused, because in the WB, it sounded like that Rhaegar was riding with not only KG, but quite a few of his favorites/friends. If that is the case, then quite a few people would have been privy to Lyannas disappearance, and if she was taken a sword point, she would have had her own entourage. I definitely think the Crossroads Inn is significant, but at this particular point in time, I don't know.Perhaps it was later and it was only Rhaegar, Oswell, Whent and Dayne.But, I think she was staying in Harrenhal. After the discussion on "gore," I think another important aspect of the symbolism is the analogy of thorns, especially its relationship to the rose. Ned remembers touching the crown, and feeling only the thorns beneath. "In literature, roses often represent love, beauty and the lady herself. The color of the rose is often significant." - Red: romance, selflessness and sacrifice. - White: Purity, charm, and silence, humility and innocence. - Pink: youth, early love and recovery. - Yellow: for friendship. joy and freedom. - Black: death - Blue: for fantasy, the unattainable, and mystery. (tKotLT)? "The rose carries overtones of growth and renewal, but the thorns represent imperfection and pain." -Wiki of flower symbolism Dream interpretations of the thorn: "The thorn symbolizes physical grief," (Ned). "Trading the dream around the woman, it symbolizes the fear of a sexual act with a man whom she secretly loves." And those are just a few interpretations that are particular to the topic of love. But I think its clear the double edge sword of the crown of roses that brought with it love, life, death and grief. As a side note, I wonder if Ned feels somewhat responsible because he was the one who brought Roberts suit to their father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It could be a parallel made by the author to make a nod to us, readers.But again, in text, what purpose would it make for Mel to see Lyanna and telling Jon if she doesn't have the context?Also, IICR, I think GRRM kinda mentioned that Lyanna was going to do her duty and marry Robert. Or it was something like the trope of the lady running with the stable boy it wasn't credible. I for once, believe she was going to marry Robert, but when she and Rhaegar met, she kinda said 'fuck this shit, I'm outta here'. But it wasn't something planned. I think you mean the following article by Jennifer Vineyard where she interviewed GRRM on various topics, with arranged marriages as one of them. "Arranged marriages were integrally woven into the fabric of medieval noble society. Nobles used arranged marriages like CEOs use corporate mergers today. The unions cemented partnerships, united neighboring patches of land, which increased wealth, and provided united fronts against common enemies. Arranged marriages were a tool of international diplomacy – the idea being kings were not as apt to declare war on the king married to their daughter." - Jennifer Vineyard In response:"Marriage was a form of political alliance. It was a way to cement a political alliance – one of the ways to bind to families together and hopefully make peace between them or to establish that… they would be allies against a third common enemy. You didn’t want your sons or daughters, if you were a lord, marrying for love. That was, that was insane… If you had a vassal whose loyalty you questioned, maybe you married him to one of your daughters and thereby bind him more closely to the family. If you have a rival you’d been at war with and now you make peace, you marry a daughter to his son…”“-GRRM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't know if this is in response to some of the theories that might have gotten back to Martin regarding Lyanna either running from the marriage, or that Rhaegar was helping her and then something happened between them. Given the honor themes surrounding the Starks, going back generations to tPaTQ, in terms of their reputation for adherance to honor, I would find it inconsistent that Lyanna, who is not only compared to Arya, but is also compared to dutiful Sansa, despite her heart, would put her House in such a postion.And given Rhaegars own sense of duty, as well as his parents, along with being the next king of Westeros, I would also find it inconsistent that he would actively undermine one of the major foundations and underpinnings of Aristocratic Westeros and Medieval society, in getting Lyanna out of an unwanted marriage. Everyone married for duty, so if he does that for Lyanna, he has to do that for everyone, including the men. BUT, since much of Selmys ruminations concern the folly of marrying for love, or choosing love over duty, and duty is a major component, particularly the honor of the lady and her House, it is also consistent that Rhaegar would take Lyanna, knowing that despite Lyanna loving him, she would indeed do her duty to her House and Robert, that it is the thing he did for love as that is also consistent with Martins theme of "conflicts of the heart," and the tragedy those choices brought. He would take the hit to his honor knowing the double standards, that he would recover much quicker that Lyanna and her House would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Now that we have the world book and confirmation that R did in fact "take" L around HH, then I think Lady G was dead on about the Crossroads Inn Yes, it has long been my favorite candidate for the spot as well. One has to ask, of course, why is Lyanna there, and I think the overwhelmingly most likely answer is she is traveling to Riverrun for Brandon and Cat's wedding. If so, then who is traveling with her - the daughter of the High Lord of the North doesn't travel alone - and where are they coming from. My guess is that the Stark wedding party is coming from the Vale. Brandon's own party when he travels to King's Landing suggest a Vale connection with Kyle Royce and Elbert Arryn as part of the four with him when he calls for Rhaegar to "come out and die." So, if Lyanna is part of her family's party that travels to the Vale before the wedding, then Lyanna probably had contact with Eddard and Robert before she sets out towards Harrenhal and Riverrun. I can't imagine that either of the two are with her when Rhaegar takes her. There would be dead Starks, Baratheons, or Targaryens in that encounter. My guess is she travels with guards from Winterfell who are at least initially hesitant to fight the royal party. Now, comes the interesting part of the speculation - what is the catalyst for the "kidnapping"? My guess is that the Starks and the Baratheons have agreed that Lyanna's own marriage to Robert is to take place shortly during their stay in the south. Perhaps even at the same time as Catelyn's and Brandon's. When Lyanna confides in Rhaegar of this unwanted event they conspire to runaway together. It would be interesting to know if Benjen is with Lyanna's party when the kidnapping takes place. If Benjen is still alive we would have someone to tell the story. Wherever that tale comes from, I'm looking forward to more details to find out if my speculation is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 ^ There is a Mallister with Brandon as well, so it is not just Vale related. Maybe Brandon was supposed to be escorting Lyanna and as part of his errand (post duel w/ LF) he left that duty to someone else. Brandon was trying to right his own wrong. (I will try to tie in my usual theory of Rhaegar/Arthur giving Brandon a chance to fess up and marry Ashara.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Lyanna wasn't slain. He's just taking his place among the dead. That's according to your narrative that you've created. We don't know how she died. The child was malformed and died an hour after being born, and Laena died three days later from childbed fever, despite the efforts of Rhaenyra's maester from Dragonstone, Gerardys. It looks to me that GRRM has set the precedent of three days, even with a maester's skills, for puerperal fever (childbed fever). The fever took Lyanna. Bed of blood, and fever sure bring to mind childbed fever. I think your absolutes just bit you in the arse. ==> Humble Pie Take a slice. Alright so one person died in a novella outside of the main series Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Alright so one person died in a novella outside of the main series :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 ^ There is a Mallister with Brandon as well, so it is not just Vale related. Maybe Brandon was supposed to be escorting Lyanna and as part of his errand (post duel w/ LF) he left that duty to someone else. Brandon was trying to right his own wrong. (I will try to tie in my usual theory of Rhaegar/Arthur giving Brandon a chance to fess up and marry Ashara.) Very true, but the Mallister connection is explained by the fact we would expect Brandon to be traveling with people from the North and the Riverlands. How do the Vale boys get involved? It's certainly possible they are fostered in the North and Brandon knows them from there (the same could be true of Jeffory Mallister, of course) but it is a connection that begs an answer. Without further knowledge, I at least, want to know why Elbert and Kyle are along. One of the four roads from the crossroads, as we know, leads to the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Very true, but the Mallister connection is explained by the fact we would expect Brandon to be traveling with people from the North and the Riverlands. How do the Vale boys get involved? It's certainly possible they are fostered in the North and Brandon knows them from there (the same could be true of Jeffory Mallister, of course) but it is a connection that begs an answer. Without further knowledge, I at least, want to know why Elbert and Kyle are along. One of the four roads from the crossroads, as we know, leads to the Vale. My theory is that Lyanna was travelling from the Vale to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding when she was kidnapped. We're told that she was kidnapped 10 miles from Harrenhal which leaves a pretty big area of possible places, but it also perfectly marks where Lyanna would be if she were coming down from the Vale having been visiting Ned and Robert in the Eyrie. And if Lyanna was travelling from the Vale to Riverrun, she would likely have companions. We know that Ned and Robert weren't them seeing as they were in the Vale the entire time (and Robert would have simply killed Rhaegar there and then had he been present), so that leaves either northmen that she brought with her when she visited them, or Vale men who volunteered when she went to leave. Which would explain the Vale men that were present when Brandon rode on King's Landing, despite Ned being the only Stark with a connection to the Vale. It also explains how Robert knew what Rhaegar had done to Lyanna and therefore made a vow to kill Rhaegar for it. Somehow has to have seen Rhaegar kidnap Lyanna, and more importantly, it has to be someone that Robert would trust as reliable. Robert spent most of his life in the Vale, so the people he would trust most are Vale men. If Lyanna were travelling from the Vale and was accompanied by men from the Vale when she was kidnapped, Robert would trust them as he likely knew the men detached to escort her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I should give credit where credit is due. The idea that Brandon's party originates in the Vale, and the Starks are there before the wedding comes from many years ago, and I believe it was Ran that pointed to the importance of the inclusion of the Vale men in his party. I sure didn't come up with that part originally. It's still an unanswered question as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I should give credit where credit is due. The idea that Brandon's party originates in the Vale, and the Starks are there before the wedding comes from many years ago, and I believe it was Ran that pointed to the importance of the inclusion of the Vale men in his party. I sure didn't come up with that part originally. It's still an unanswered question as far as I know. I always read Brandon's party as a combination of plot (a secondary reason for the North, Vale, and Riverlands to rebel) and another case of the "knights of summer" that Catelyn thinks about with Renly's army, young men gallivanting around the countryside, playing at glory. (Renly's Rainbow Guard consisted of member from the Stormlands, the Reach and the Vale.) But it may be another plot point yet to be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Now that we have the world book and confirmation that R did in fact "take" L around HH, then I think Lady G was dead on about the Crossroads Inn That analysis makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure that the Inn is within 10 leagues (30 miles) of Harrenhal. The God's Eye looks like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 That analysis makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure that the Inn is within 10 leagues (30 miles) of Harrenhal. The God's Eye looks like it is. Yeah, if you look at one of the official maps and use the Wall for scale, really the ONLY notable place within that 10-league span is the God's Eye/Isle of Faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Alright so one person died in a novella outside of the main series And those people totes don't count!!!! It is known! That analysis makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure that the Inn is within 10 leagues (30 miles) of Harrenhal. The God's Eye looks like it is. i think they visited the Gods Eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 On the topic of dying in childbirth, lady Jeyne Marbrand died "within a moon's turn" due to childbirth. Now, technically three days counts as 'within a moon's turn', but if that were the case, I doubt it would be described as it is. So it seems that GRRM has given us a slightly larger window in which women can die due to childbirth.^ Maybe Brandon was supposed to be escorting Lyanna and as part of his errand (post duel w/ LF) he left that duty to someone else. Brandon was trying to right his own wrong.Interesting idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Charles of Rosehaven Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Barristan doesn't resent Ned for Ashara jumping off the tower. He bitterly remembers how Ashara had looked to 'Stark' at Harrenhal, but he never identifies this Stark. Was is Ned? Was it Brandon? We don't know.But what happened to Ashara (at Harrenhal) is also not connected to whether Jon is Rhaegars son or not.Most importantly, Barristan doesn't know everything. He doesn't know about Jon, so how can he connect it to anything? WHen ned went to him to read the paper of roberts decision of ned to become regent until joffrey was of age Ser Barristan Stays iddle and watches as cersei breaks the paper. But in Mereen when Daario is about to break quentyns paper Ser Barristan stops Daario from breaking it and later remembers about Ashara and Stark. This is why some random poster Who I just forgot who was claimed that Ser Barristan resented ned. He may know something because he was in the kinsguard and happened to meet Arthur Dayne who is Ashara´s brother IIRC and The royal family. Maybe (totally crackpot) in one kingsguard meeting or any random guarding moment with Ser Arthur they both spoke about Ashara and Ned somethimg likeSer Barristan: Hey Arthur you know something I fell in love with your sisterArthur : Hahaha you are crazy Ser remember you are a kingsguard and you have your bows and Ashara is my sister and is pregnant with the son of this northman what was his name again... Ah I dont remember help me, he was the shy one with the solemn face and the crazy sister who tought she could be a knight. Which was his name?Ser Barristan: Do you mean Brandon Stark?Arthur: Yes!, it was Stark umhhh Eddard Stark!!!! Sorry for answering to late it is just I lost my phone and I couldn´t find my comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Nowhere Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hey, so I just watched this GRRM's interview and can't help but wonder if he revealed that R+L=J is true. This is the quote:"...I have certian things that I'm laying clues for that there'll be revelations later on...Some people had put together those clues even as early as 98' adding things together....These people had guessed the secret that I'm going to reveal in book 6 and book 2 is just out..."Whay do you guys think?This is the link by the way:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLkvLpPWWvI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Hi Staker, welcome to the forum and welcome to R+L=J! Although the video seems to be a recent upload on youtube, the interview is from last autumn and we (or the regulars on the thread) know it from then. We have discussed it and GRRM has made similar statements before. We think he talks about R+L=J indeed, but as he does not name it, we might still by the grasp of a straw be wrong ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think that Theon's dream is supernatural and as such autonomous and truthful. Theon may not understand what was happening but he doesn't have to - He is a vehicle for a careful reader. The dream contributes to the R+L= J theory in a vital, subtle manner. We are the ones who should be asking questions like why white dress/crown of roses/gore/sadness... "Lyanna in her bed of blood..." is another valuable clue. It read like "Lyanna in the bed of blood of her making/doing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I think that Theon's dream is supernatural and as such autonomous and truthful. Theon may not understand what was happening but he doesn't have to - He is a vehicle for a careful reader. The dream contributes to the R+L= J theory in a vital, subtle manner. We are the ones who should be asking questions like why white dress/crown of roses/gore/sadness..."Lyanna in her bed of blood..." is another valuable clue. It read like "Lyanna in the bed of blood of her making/doing". You make your own bed. For sure. Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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