Learning to Lead II: The Wrath of the Decision Makers? A re-read project of the Daenerys and Jon chapters from ADWD

[Fire Eater]

The three men who come to see Jon are the First Builder, the First Steward and the septon. All of these men are assigned to positions that require them to stay at Castle Black, and seldom venturing beyond the Wall. This confinement has resulted in their limited views, as they have never seen the wights or the Others, and fail to grasp the gravity of the situation with the coming of the Long Night. What they know of wildlings is what they heard from reports from rangers and other brothers; the stories are often of violent attacks and raids by the wildlings. It comes to no surprise that they view wildings as primal savages and raiders.

[Lummel]

I get the general "sacrifice figure" notion but I get no sense at all of how that might play out in Jon's story...

I think this is a very good opener on the topic and something that we will hopefully come back to when we get to Jon XIII. At this point in Jon VIII I think it is foreshadowing the end of the book. It feels like a deceive moment in the Jon-Marsh relationship. But also it has pointers (probably) to Jon's post-ADWD future. At a very basic level the Corn King dies but rises again in the Spring. If Jon's fall seems certain at this stage then we are also being given hope that he will rise again.

Seeing as you have mentioned the Prince of Pentos I feel safe now to mention The Golden Bough. iirc Frazer big idea was that all religions stemed from the idea of death and rebirth tied up in the cycle of harvest, sowing and new growth. To my mind this idea of death and renewnal ties up the whole of ASOIAF with it's long winters, the fall and (hopefully) return of various noble houses. So I feel this is a very resonant little chapter.

[Lykos]

Lummel, have you thought of Duncan´s selfsacrifice in the "Sworn Sword" where we have also the levies named after their crops - Barleycorn?

Regarding the Prince of Pentos, I agree with you that the circle of life - birth, death and renewal are the main theme in the story there are so many metaphors to be found most notable the weirwoods:

<snip>

For the most part I have the feeling that blood is only used for the show, because people believe in it´s power. But there seem to be hints that blood is a carrier of spiritid life, mostly in connection with the Weirwoods.

The Weirwoods seem to represent a connection of earth/matter and - well, call it - sky, air or wind it is all spirit - the red rustleling leafs.

There is a hungarian fairy tale of an oak with 77 crows in it´s crown and 77 voles gnawing at it´s roots. I think this is a good metaphor for the flighty future and the past that eventually will be forgotten and lost.

Of course Martin will rather have taken the Yggdrasil as inspiration, since he used so many norse images, but it ist very overfraught with symbolism. It´s roots are gnawed by Níðhöggr

a - winged snake that will carry the corpses in it´s pinions - to the underworld before the new world arises after Ragnarök.

It seems that the norse men fused pagan european believes (very notable greek, but probably just because they´ve been written down) with some christian imagery they came across on their raids, when they wrote down the Edda.

There also is a stag - later four stags - that gnaws the bark and shoots of the tree, representing the depravedness of the world.

Back to blood and trees, there is the image of Odin´s self-sacrifice and the account of Adam von Bremen:

<snip>

Then there are also the images of interference with this circle. People sacrificing part of their nature to prolong their life, know the future or gain some other power. Azor Ahai giving his wife, Euron an eye and so on. The Harpy alludes to this too, with the story of Phineus. Duncan´s sacrifice stands in contrast to these as it is a selfless sacrifice.

[Maia]

I am not sure why everybody says that Marsh and Co. are lying when they mention "men" for whom they are speaking. Somebody did tell them about Val ASAP, she was given an inferior horse, etc. What is more, I don't see any brothers trying to make aquiantance with Wun-Wun. If they are all so behind Jon, why don't we see it?

And yes, Leathers has better things to do than translating for Wun-Wun. If Jon wanted people to see Wun-Wun as an asset, maybe he should have assigned somebody to him full-time and ordered them to perform useful tasks around Castle Black? Then his offer to Yarwick would have had some substance.

And also, lack of provisions to feed everybody is a serious, serious problem, that Jon shouldn't have treated with such nonchalance. He should have aknowledged that Marsh had a point there and seriously discussed some measures to alleviate the situation. Set more people (including wildlings) to hunting and fishing and preserving in the short term. In the long term... well it does look very bleak. The North will have no food to spare, the south won't do anything as long as Stannis is in the area and maybe not even once he is gone. And what would wildlings do once the food runs out? Right, attack the North to plunder their food reserves. It is not "cowardice" to point out this problem and it's reprecussions. As it is the "solution", provided it will actually turn out to be one, came very much out of left field and couldn't have been reasonably predicted.

Nor is it by any means clear to an unbiased observer that the Wall wouldn't stop the wights and the Others, even with few people to defend it. after all, it has been built for that very purpose...

Re: Satin, reading and writing "after a fashion" ( i.e. not very well) doesn't mean the level of numeracy that Lord Steward would need. Nor would serving Jon teach Satin that, as Jon is not great shakes at accountancy himself, nor has much to do with it, really.

Though I do wonder why Jon and Mormont before him deplore the lack of literate people in NW, when they have a septon who has very little to do. Why not assign him to teaching promising low-born brothers and young recruits?

Jon could have even thrown a sop to Marsh et al. and asked them for some candidates.

Re: steward, again, maybe Jon should have asked them to name somebody they thought would be more deserving.

Jon should have shown some will to compromise - maybe on small, unimportant things, but at least his officers would have felt that they can affect things through the chain of command, occasionally.

[Winterfellian]

@mshadows, Welcome!

Regarding the Jon’s policies regarding the wildings I think there are some things we ought to consider before coming to understand his decision to let them in:

Time: I agree that Jon is introducing too many changes in a short time, but we must consider if there was enough time to do it otherwise. Mance started gathering the wildings back in AGOT. There was fear and despair enough among the wildings back then. Time, the losses on both Night Watch and free folk resulting in more wights and the upcoming winter only serve to make a bad situation even worse. Jon’s plan seems to secure every person he can south of the wall and accomplish the following:

- Less number of wildings means less wights attacking a 300 miles unmanned wall

- New recruits to man the wall and thus be better armed to face the current threat and

keep Stannis from taking the unmanned castles.

I agree that his plans are leaving many logistics to be solved here, but was there really time to make a census among the black brothers and arranged counseling sessions for those with wildings issues to work them out? Winter is almost upon them. With concern to get a little ahead of the rereading, Jon’s logic reminds me of his thoughts after he arranged the loan from the Iron Bank: If the options are die or borrow, you best borrow. Same here if the options are wights and white walkers or wildings he picked the wildings.Hunger, wildings, old prejudices are big problems but at the same time are human problems with human solutions (even if they are not easy solutions). Instead of choosing to fight wights and creatures he doesn’t even know all he will like to know despite his efforts to gather information about them Jon is choosing the only logic choice left to him. It was a gamble either way. Jon could wait to work out everything like food resources (a valid concern on Marsh’s part) and introduce the idea of wildings through the wall slowly to the Night Watch but risk the increase of wights numbers and the chance of the Others attacking or did things the way he’s doing them. Given the situation he was in this was the safest bet.

Role playing in the wall: I think Loras brought up an interesting point. Jon needs to work with Marsh and Yarwick. I agree with this however I feel this must also be reciprocal. If Jon is doing something they perceive endangers the Night Watch as an institution is ok that they call him on this but not enough; they should propose an alternative they consider better. As the leaders in Castle Black they all have to contribute with solutions to the Wall’s problems. Both Marsh and Yarwick are failing at this. All they do is nag. If they don’t come out with solutions of their own they leave Jon no choice but follow his own. I wonder if they both agreed to Mormont’s last ranging. Given their current positions I suppose they didn’t but neither did they provide a good solution to find out more about The Others and the mystery concerning the wildings disappereance (other than stick your hand in the sand) so the Old Bear had to follow what he thought was best at the moment.

[SeanF]

@mshadows, Welcome!

Regarding the Jon’s policies regarding the wildings I think there are some things we ought to consider before coming to understand his decision to let them in:

Time: I agree that Jon is introducing too many changes in a short time, but we must consider if there was enough time to do it otherwise. Mance started gathering the wildings back in AGOT. There was fear and despair enough among the wildings back then. Time, the losses on both Night Watch and free folk resulting in more wights and the upcoming winter only serve to make a bad situation even worse. Jon’s plan seems to secure every person he can south of the wall and accomplish the following:

- Less number of wildings means less wights attacking a 300 miles unmanned wall

- New recruits to man the wall and thus be better armed to face the current threat and

keep Stannis from taking the unmanned castles.

I agree that his plans are leaving many logistics to be solved here, but was there really time to make a census among the black brothers and arranged counseling sessions for those with wildings issues to work them out? Winter is almost upon them. With concern to get a little ahead of the rereading, Jon’s logic reminds me of his thoughts after he arranged the loan from the Iron Bank: If the options are die or borrow, you best borrow. Same here if the options are wights and white walkers or wildings he picked the wildings.Hunger, wildings, old prejudices are big problems but at the same time are human problems with human solutions (even if they are not easy solutions). Instead of choosing to fight wights and creatures he doesn’t even know all he will like to know despite his efforts to gather information about them Jon is choosing the only logic choice left to him. It was a gamble either way. Jon could wait to work out everything like food resources (a valid concern on Marsh’s part) and introduce the idea of wildings through the wall slowly to the Night Watch but risk the increase of wights numbers and the chance of the Others attacking or did things the way he’s doing them. Given the situation he was in this was the safest bet.

Role playing in the wall: I think Loras brought up an interesting point. Jon needs to work with Marsh and Yarwick. I agree with this however I feel this must also be reciprocal. If Jon is doing something they perceive endangers the Night Watch as an institution is ok that they call him on this but not enough; they should propose an alternative they consider better. As the leaders in Castle Black they all have to contribute with solutions to the Wall’s problems. Both Marsh and Yarwick are failing at this. All they do is nag. If they don’t come out with solutions of their own they leave Jon no choice but follow his own. I wonder if they both agreed to Mormont’s last ranging. Given their current positions I suppose they didn’t but neither did they provide a good solution to find out more about The Others and the mystery concerning the wildings disappereance (other than stick your hand in the sand) so the Old Bear had to follow what he thought was best at the moment.

In particular, Marsh does nothing but complain.

Jon ought to have made more effort to win them round - but it's still unlikely he would have succeeded, whatever he said to them.

[Tagganaro]

I am not sure why everybody says that Marsh and Co. are lying when they mention "men" for whom they are speaking. Somebody did tell them about Val ASAP, she was given an inferior horse, etc. What is more, I don't see any brothers trying to make aquiantance with Wun-Wun. If they are all so behind Jon, why don't we see it?

And yes, Leathers has better things to do than translating for Wun-Wun. If Jon wanted people to see Wun-Wun as an asset, maybe he should have assigned somebody to him full-time and ordered them to perform useful tasks around Castle Black? Then his offer to Yarwick would have had some substance.

But his offer to Yarwyck does have some substance- Namely Yarwyck has requested workers and Jon has just offered him someone who can "do the work of 12 men". If Yarwyck is gaining 12 men, then he can lose 1 or 2 to watch over Wun-Wun in exchange.

I don't know that Wun-Wun is such an important character that we'd need to be seeing other brothers making an effort to talk to him. You could be right, who knows. But yes, clearly I agree that Marsh is at least speaking for most of the stewards under his command when he says "the men."

And also, lack of provisions to feed everybody is a serious, serious problem, that Jon shouldn't have treated with such nonchalance. He should have aknowledged that Marsh had a point there and seriously discussed some measures to alleviate the situation. Set more people (including wildlings) to hunting and fishing and preserving in the short term. In the long term... well it does look very bleak. The North will have no food to spare, the south won't do anything as long as Stannis is in the area and maybe not even once he is gone. And what would wildlings do once the food runs out? Right, attack the North to plunder their food reserves. It is not "cowardice" to point out this problem and it's reprecussions. As it is the "solution", provided it will actually turn out to be one, came very much out of left field and couldn't have been reasonably predicted.

I agree, but there are no solutions to this problem (pre Iron Bank at least) to even be discussed. It's too late to harvest, most of the nearby rivers are frozen over. The NW is caught between a rock and a hard place.

Nor is it by any means clear to an unbiased observer that the Wall wouldn't stop the wights and the Others, even with few people to defend it. after all, it has been built for that very purpose...

I really disagree with this though. It should be clear. If the NW needed Stannis to save its ass from a rag-tag group of wildlings that could have slaughtered them, then I don't think it would be much difference for the greatest threat the Westerosi world has ever seen. And it's not just that though- When you're talking about the wildlings/Others, you're talking about a positive feedback loop. Which is to say, if you don't let the wildlings through, not only will they attack the Wall and further bleed the NW numbers, but if they don't they will die and their numbers will increase the overall strength of the wights that will then further attack the Wall.

And while the Wall may have magical properties against the wights, it does not against wildlings. And the fact is without Jon's heroic actions in ASOS, we're talking about mass slaughter of the NW for the very reasons Marsh is purposely ignoring- mainly that there are too few men to man the Wall leaving large swaths of it unwatched and unguarded, making it easyish for wildlings to climb it and get around and massacre the NW. In fact, not only that, but Marsh as leader of the NW in Mormonts actions directly fell for the wildlings strategy and further weakened the Wall, so he should know from experience.

Re: Satin, reading and writing "after a fashion" ( i.e. not very well) doesn't mean the level of numeracy that Lord Steward would need. Nor would serving Jon teach Satin that, as Jon is not great shakes at accountancy himself, nor has much to do with it, really.

Though I do wonder why Jon and Mormont before him deplore the lack of literate people in NW, when they have a septon who has very little to do. Why not assign him to teaching promising low-born brothers and young recruits?

Jon could have even thrown a sop to Marsh et al. and asked them for some candidates.

Re: steward, again, maybe Jon should have asked them to name somebody they thought would be more deserving.

Jon should have shown some will to compromise - maybe on small, unimportant things, but at least his officers would have felt that they can affect things through the chain of command, occasionally.

Agreed. Although I have to wonder what exactly Jon's "power" is so to speak. Since he's elected, it seems he has mostly absolute power over the NW so he's under no obligation to compromise. In fact, it seems as if it's the other way around and Marsh and co. are under an obligation to obey and compromise themselves. But I do agree- Jon could have thrown them a bone here.

One thing though- the less Septon Cellador has to do, the better. What a tool. I can't even imagine he'd be able to do a simple thing like that. From what we know all he does is drink and get drunk all day.

@mshadows, Welcome!

Regarding the Jon’s policies regarding the wildings I think there are some things we ought to consider before coming to understand his decision to let them in:

Time: I agree that Jon is introducing too many changes in a short time, but we must consider if there was enough time to do it otherwise. Mance started gathering the wildings back in AGOT. There was fear and despair enough among the wildings back then. Time, the losses on both Night Watch and free folk resulting in more wights and the upcoming winter only serve to make a bad situation even worse. Jon’s plan seems to secure every person he can south of the wall and accomplish the following:

- Less number of wildings means less wights attacking a 300 miles unmanned wall

- New recruits to man the wall and thus be better armed to face the current threat and

keep Stannis from taking the unmanned castles.

I agree that his plans are leaving many logistics to be solved here, but was there really time to make a census among the black brothers and arranged counseling sessions for those with wildings issues to work them out? Winter is almost upon them. With concern to get a little ahead of the rereading, Jon’s logic reminds me of his thoughts after he arranged the loan from the Iron Bank: If the options are die or borrow, you best borrow. Same here if the options are wights and white walkers or wildings he picked the wildings.Hunger, wildings, old prejudices are big problems but at the same time are human problems with human solutions (even if they are not easy solutions). Instead of choosing to fight wights and creatures he doesn’t even know all he will like to know despite his efforts to gather information about them Jon is choosing the only logic choice left to him. It was a gamble either way. Jon could wait to work out everything like food resources (a valid concern on Marsh’s part) and introduce the idea of wildings through the wall slowly to the Night Watch but risk the increase of wights numbers and the chance of the Others attacking or did things the way he’s doing them. Given the situation he was in this was the safest bet.

Well said, I agree. There's simply no time.

Role playing in the wall: I think Loras brought up an interesting point. Jon needs to work with Marsh and Yarwick. I agree with this however I feel this must also be reciprocal. If Jon is doing something they perceive endangers the Night Watch as an institution is ok that they call him on this but not enough; they should propose an alternative they consider better. As the leaders in Castle Black they all have to contribute with solutions to the Wall’s problems. Both Marsh and Yarwick are failing at this. All they do is nag. If they don’t come out with solutions of their own they leave Jon no choice but follow his own. I wonder if they both agreed to Mormont’s last ranging. Given their current positions I suppose they didn’t but neither did they provide a good solution to find out more about The Others and the mystery concerning the wildings disappereance (other than stick your hand in the sand) so the Old Bear had to follow what he thought was best at the moment.

This is what I was trying to get at in my post. There's simply no common ground to work with, because it's not just Jon who is stubborn and set in his ways, but Bowen Marsh and co. are equally stubborn and unwilling to compromise. And this is where I have begun to wonder: Why is Jon keeping these guys around? Do they speak for a lot of men and it would it be seen as wrong for him to "demote" them?

Because it's clear there's just nothing in common between them, and it is true that Bowen Marsh and co. have done nothing but nag the entire time Jon's been in control. Why not seek out others to advise him/lead other recruits?

[Ragnorak]

I am not sure why everybody says that Marsh and Co. are lying when they mention "men" for whom they are speaking. Somebody did tell them about Val ASAP, she was given an inferior horse, etc. What is more, I don't see any brothers trying to make aquiantance with Wun-Wun. If they are all so behind Jon, why don't we see it?

It isn't that they're lying, more that they're saying "the men" insted of "we" or "I." Even if Marsh said "the stewards" and Yarwyck said "the builders" it would have been less about griping and more about the challenges to their respective areas of responsibility. They brought the Septon as their third, not the First Ranger (or the senior ranger present at CB) which is a little telling. Also Stannis let the Wildlings through the Wall originally not Jon and this is at the heart of their complaints. Jon is definitely planning on continuing with that route, but Stannis is the one that broke the ice for what that matters.

And also, lack of provisions to feed everybody is a serious, serious problem, that Jon shouldn't have treated with such nonchalance. He should have aknowledged that Marsh had a point there and seriously discussed some measures to alleviate the situation.

You make an excellent point here. There seems to a consensus even among the most positive readings of Jon here that he could have at least "thrown them a bone." We learn later that Jon's plan to let the Wildlings through includes the toll to help buy food for the Winter, but Jon knows that now since it is part of the terms Val is bringing to Tormund. He has that bone to throw but chooses to keep it to himself. That one piece of information would have made a huge difference in the level of bitterness behind the negative feelings those men had when they left.

[tze]

I really wonder if Jon would have reacted the same way if someone like Pyke, Mallister, or hell, even Iron Emmett or Dolorous Ed had come to him with these kinds of concerns. Marsh rounds up Othell Yarwyk, a man known for being pretty easy to sway on any topic but building, and Septon Cellador, whose drunkenness is so obvious even Melisandre commented on it in her POV. Was there nobody else willing to lend his voice to Marsh's? And let's not forget that Jon knows quite a bit about Bowen Marsh: he knows Marsh was perfectly willing to allow King's Landing to dictate the LC's election (given that he overheard Marsh plotting with Slynt and Thorne back in ASOS), which renders Marsh's arguments that he knows what's best for the Watch rather laughable, given his apparent relish for being other men's puppet. And out of all of the serious candidates for Lord Commander (excluding Three-Finger Hobb with his five votes and Dolorous Ed with his one vote), Bowen Marsh came in dead last. Othell Yarwyk got more votes for LC than Bowen Marsh! The idea of "the men" electing Marsh as their voice, their representative to Jon, is patently absurd, and Jon pretty clearly recognizes this.

As others have stated, Jon simply can't win with these men: he's condemned for "giving too much" to Stannis, then he's condemned for disobeying Stannis. Marsh (and Mully, who IIRC gets attacked by Ghost later on, indicating he's probably working with Marsh's conspiracy) keeps claiming that the men say terrible things about Jon (he's a turncloak, a wildling, a warg, etc.) . . . but it's not like any of these characteristics just magically appeared post-election. Ghost has been with him since Day 1 and he rode with Mance Rayder before his election; it's not like Jon hid things from "the men" in order to trick them into voting for him. If "the men" are saying things about Jon, well, it's not like those purported characteristics of Jon's stopped them from voting for him in the first place!

I thought the whole scene was very interestingly staged. Marsh stomps in with Yarwyk and Cellador trailing him. Jon offers them food, and while Marsh clearly expects the other two to refuse so that the three of them can show a united front and lecture Jon with one voice (Marsh's voice), Yarwyk and Cellador immediately break with Marsh and sit down to eat (and drink) with Jon. I mean, how does that look? Marsh doesn't even fully lead these two men, so how on earth can Jon expect Marsh to speak for the rest of the Watch?

[Dr. Pepper]

Amazing discussion with Jon VIII! Before this thread gets closed for link, I will present Dany VIII

Dany VIII

Overview

A feast and entertainment are thrown in celebration of the newly signed peace negotiations and re-opened fighting pits. Dany is miserable as she realizes how much she has had to give up in order to get this peace. Slaves entertain the crowd and the slave trade is booming outside Meereen's walls. Seven hostages have been sent to the Yunkai'i in order to ensure safety for the visitors: Hizdahrs sister and two cousins, Jhogo, Groleo, Hero and Daario.

Dany speaks with Brown Ben Plumm about his defection. She then speaks with Barristan about the possibility of eliminating BBB or figuring out a way to bring some of the Yunkai'i sellsword companies to her side. Discussion turns to the Dornish fellows and Dany requests Quentyn join her to visit the dragons. Dany encourages Quentyn to return to Dorne as he is unsafe in Meereen.

Hizdahr and Dany have a round of unsatisfying sex. Afterwards, Dany finds herself unable to sleep. Her thoughts turn to prophecies and Drogo and Daario until Missandei comes. Dany requests stories, Missandei obliges and talks until Dany is able finally fall into a fitful sleep.

Observations

• The Shavepate was replaced with Hizdahr's cousin. "It is for the best. The Green Grace says there is blood between Loraq and Kandaq, and the Shavepate never made a secret of his disdain for my lord husband. " Probably a significant hint that the Shavepate was a threat to Hizdahr in a more serious way than simple family feuds.
  
• Regarding Daario: "If he did not betray her, he would master her. She did not know which of those she feared the most."
  
• Regarding the dragons: "They frighten me as well. There is no shame in that. My children have grown wild and angry in the dark.”
  

Analysis

In Your Face

Dany is seething, angry, and feeling defeated. Dany has known the slave trade has resumed in the bay, but it's now right under her nose - in the hall and outside the walls. It leaves a bad taste in Dany's mouth.

"They have opened a slave market within sight of my walls!” “Outside our walls, sweet queen. That was a condition of the peace, that Yunkai would be free to trade in slaves as before, unmolested.” “In their own city. Not where I have to see it.”

One slave entertainment troupe is a group of eunuchs singing in the ancient language of Old Ghis, a language Dany does not seem to understand. This recalls the language/cultural barrier Jon's men face with Wun Wun at the wall. However, where Leathers is there to act as translator when necessary, Dany's translator - Missandei - does not appear to be present at the festivities. One wonders what a group of eunuchs have been made to sing.

One bit of entertainment very much hints that Dany's weaknesses have been exposed.

"The tumblers who came next failed to move her either, even when they formed a human pyramid nine levels high, with a naked little girl on top. Is that meant to represent my pyramid? the queen wondered. Is the girl on top meant to be me?"

Her secrets and weaknesses are exposed to her foes. Later in the chapter, Brown Ben Plumm reveals that he's told his men that that the dragons are out of commission when it comes to the war. Since BBB is again contracted to the Yunkai'i, it might be safe to presume he revealed this information to his new employers. Or it's possible that he pulled a Littlefinger and spoke positively of his last employer while encouraging his men to spread the truth among the ranks. The Yunkai'i know she's vulnerable and this performance indicate that they want her to know that they why they've won. Her "Dracarys" moment is no longer a valid threat as it's been exposed as a simple one-off party trick.

It's business, nothing personal

Brown Ben Plum comes to wish Dany congratulations for her marriage, but she rebukes his offer and calls him out on his betrayal. BBP is very non-chalant when he reminds her that he first betrayed Yunkai to come to her side when he saw Yunkai could not hope to win. He had informed his men about how she could not use the dragons in the fight and they all decided they'd rather be on the side most likely to win since the dragons were no superior weapon.

"Silver’s sweet and gold’s our mother, but once you’re dead they’re worth less than that last shit you take as you lie dying."

Basically, BBP reminds her that he runs a business and a business is no good if everyone ends up dead. The underlining implication I think BBP is trying to convey is that the Second Sons are not slaves. They are free to determine their own lives in a fairly democratic manner. They are the very embodiment of the movement Dany has been attempting to orchestrate. This is what freedom looks like - free men operating a business as part of a free market economy. BBP told her a story about a lesson he learned. Was he also telling the story to show her what freedom looks like? If freedom is her child, it's an important lesson in parenting that children will not always obey the parent.

Dornish Issues

Dany questions Barristan about the possibility of assassinated certain leaders of the free companies and also of bringing some of them over to her side. Barristan snubs the idea on the basis that these men are treachorous sellswords. He fails to acknowledge that the reason they appear treachorous is because Dany is in an incredibly weak position since she no longer even has the illusion of a superior weapon. Instead, he encourages her to reconsider the Dornish offer.

“It would please me if he had turned up with these fifty thousand swords he speaks of. Instead he brings two knights and a parchment. Will a parchment shield my people from the Yunkai’i? If he had come with a fleet …”

“Sunspear has never been a sea power, Your Grace.”

Barristan again fails to inform her of the actual reality, which is that Dorne places itself in great peril by even sending Quentyn with this proposed pact. If word reached KL, it will be hazardous for them.

Dany takes Quentyn down to see the dragons. They are lead and guarded by two Brazen Beasts wearing fish and hawk masks. There is the obvious connection to Westeros with the Tully and Arryn sigils appearing as Dany is taking a moment to learn more about Westeros. There are several symbolic meanings for both the fish and the hawk and any one of these symbolic interpretations may fit. I offer an analysis based on the broadest interpretation. The fish has a number of spiritual connections while the hawk can represent victory. These interpretations make sense when we consider that Hizdahr's cousin is now in charge of the Brazen Beasts and the Green Grace, as the Harpy, has power over Hizdahr. A great victory the spiritual leader of the city has won, indeed.

After Quentyn views the dragons, Dany encourages him to leave. Quentyn will not run. On the way back up to the party, Dany notes that she knows very little about Dorne. She asks that Quentyn tell her more about the Daenerys of the Water Gardens during their climb. We are denied the opportunity to be privy to Dany's internal reaction to the story, which may well prove significant in the future.

We will be examining Quentyn's chapters a bit later in this re-read project.

Depression

Depression and defeatism is very apparent in this chapter.

"I hate this, thought Daenerys Targaryen. How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I’d sooner flay?"

Dany has lost nearly all of the ground she had previously gained in Slaver's Bay.

"This is peace, she told herself. This is what I wanted, what I worked for, this is why I married Hizdahr. So why does it taste so much like defeat?"

There's an internal struggle going on with Dany. The face of freedom as embodied by BBB is unpalatable while the face of slavery as embodied by the Yunkai'i is likewise unpalatable. Dany is dealing with the real realities of what her movement means and having trouble accepting the problems inherent in freedom. She herself has signed over many of her own freedoms by choosing peace over abolitionism.

Dany, like Jon, is also very isolated. Her closest and most reliable confidant is Missandei. There is a similarity between Missandei and Dolorous Edd, though Edd did not come to Jon's confidence as a slave but as a peer. Because of this, Edd is able to speak more informally with Jon, while Missandei does not have an informal relationship with Dany. Her only peer now is her husband, whom she despises.

Before Missandei comes into the room, Dany is thinking again of Daario.

"He was only a sellsword, no fit consort for a queen, and yet …"

Might this broken thought have something to do with Princess Daenerys' revelations about the children at the Water Gardens? She has Missandei tell her stories about her family and things that make her happy.

__________

butterbumps! up next with Jon IX.....

[Julian Rayne]

I really wonder if Jon would have reacted the same way if someone like Pyke, Mallister, or hell, even Iron Emmett or Dolorous Ed had come to him with these kinds of concerns.

I think he'd have even reacted differently if Marsh had not been so mulish. Pyke or the others would have at least tried to understand his reasoning. If Marsh had said 'Yes, I understand your reasons but I still think it's a bad idea because of X, Y and Z," Jon would not have been so dismissive.

IIRC at one point he explicitly thinks that thre's no point explaining himself because these guys aren't listening.

[The Snow King]

You make an excellent point here. There seems to a consensus even among the most positive readings of Jon here that he could have at least "thrown them a bone." We learn later that Jon's plan to let the Wildlings through includes the toll to help buy food for the Winter, but Jon knows that now since it is part of the terms Val is bringing to Tormund. He has that bone to throw but chooses to keep it to himself. That one piece of information would have made a huge difference in the level of bitterness behind the negative feelings those men had when they left.

And if you really believe that, there's this bridge I've got to sell :) Marsh, Yarwyck and Cellador have no intention of having their beliefs changed. It's quite common human condition, even in our society there is a solid number of issues where there are two sides, no compromise can be achieved and people involved are impervious to any facts or arguments. Same thing here, it is not a question of rational reservations but of emotional disagreement, with rationalisations included. And they do not want to be swayed, so being people of low integrity Marsh and his circle always show up together, so that they can avoid one of them caving in, to arguments or more likely sheer force of will of Jon. There is no bone to throw, they would criticize any possible plan of action. In this example Jon intends to take valuables from Wildlings to pay for necessary items, and the argument would go along the lines of "There is nothing of value behind the Wall, and if there even is then Wildling are to primitive to even find it, and what they have they will never part with, or just trick Jon, or rebel and steal back their valuables after they cross, and besides no-one can eat gold, and there is nowhere to buy anything anyway, yes, Braavos, but that is so far, and storms are coming so it's not reliable..." and so on, as long as Jon has any strength left to argue. In the end he would still have make the same call with vehement disagreement form the other three, and most likely would have to deal with a accusation of selling the Wall to the Wildlings for trinkets and shiny baubles. Another reason to get rid of the crazy LC.

The fact is 'Marsh and friends' would be most happy to see all Wildlings dead, and the fact that they may return as wights doesn't bother them. They have already mentally prepared themselves for genocide. In their eyes Wildlings are primitive barbarians that are barely human, practically subhuman, in fact just savage beasts that may in fact look similar to humans but are animals. They don't even speak proper human tongue. It's no crime to let them die, in fact it's a favor for everyone. Getting to know Wildlings better would be a challenge to those beliefs so they won't do that.

And I wouldn't dismiss septon Cellador as a simple drunk. They guy is a dick, and what's worse he's both bitter and full of prejudices. Marsh and Yarwyck are men who prefer to be led, so far most of their actions have been inspired or dictated by other persons, like Thorne, Slant, Tywin. I wouldn't be surprised that in absence of any other authority that Cellador, with his hate for northern culture and Old Gods, was the driving force behind Ides of Marsh.

[Blisscraft]

Fantastic DP! Especially love the insight about BBB and freedom.

[Ragnorak]

@Dr Pepper

Great summary

BBP as a lesson in freedom and Daario as a lesson from the Water Gardens especially.

And if you really believe that, there's this bridge I've got to sell :) Marsh, Yarwyck and Cellador have no intention of having their beliefs changed....

I can't see where I stated that anything was going to change their minds. I didn't even state that they would be pleased in any way about it. I spoke of the level of bitterness behind negative feelings. Imagine a divorce-- your soon to be ex-wife gets the house, the car, the kids, basically everything. If your ex-wife "throws you a bone" and let's you keep your dog, it isn't going to change your beliefs about your ex-wife but it may lessen the bitterness behind your negative feelings when you leave the courtroom. At least you got something and now you can focus on the dog instead running scenarios through your head where you stab the ex-wife to death because you got nothing and you're seething with bitterness about it.

[Blisscraft]

About the Brazen Beasts and their chosen masks: both the fish and the hawk are symbols of the soul. The fish is also the unconsious, a living creature beneath the surface (of water), awaiting discovery, liberation or capture. The hawk is also a messenger. The hawk has the bird's eye view in its flight and visibility is unlimited. However, rarely is the hawk's message subtle. Hawks screech rather loudly and often unbearably to the hearer.

[The Snow King]

Depression

Depression and defeatism is very apparent in this chapter.

Great post, and while there are a few things I have to thing about, I wonder if Dany isn't bipolar rather than simply depressed. Especially if we consider that delusions of grandeur are quite common during the manic episodes (and here I wait for the bashing that will obviously follow, as clearly Dany is the chosen one, so there are no delusions of grandeur. Possibly, but I do not agree).

[Blisscraft]

It occured to me this morning after reading this analysis that Dany is very like Eddard Stark. Both failed playing the Game of Thrones because of their compassion.

[Blisscraft]

Yes, I've braced myself. Commence the s**t slinging.

[The Sleeper]

It occured to me this morning after reading this analysis that Dany is very like Eddard Stark. Both failed playing the Game of Thrones because of their compassion.

Not quite and not that far off, either. I think this chapter is where Dany fully realizes the price of compromise.

[The Snow King]

It occured to me this morning after reading this analysis that Dany is very like Eddard Stark. Both failed playing the Game of Thrones because of their compassion.

You could also add the unwillingness to understand the rules of the game they are playing and taking things they are told at face value, without any considering why they are told something. Ned was fed information by Varys and Littlefinger, while for Dany it's mostly Green Grace, and it seems that Green Grace is playing Dany the same way Littlefinger was playing Ned. Main difference would be that while Dany's 'act of compassion' was motivated by care of their own 'children' (and let's skip the issue whether Dany concern for her children is real of superficial, it does not matter here), while Ned acted out of compassion in this case his enemies' children, and would in fact act because of any children.