The Food Code of Ice and Fire

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Coppola uses oranges in the Godfather trilogy to symbolize death. Blood oranges in particular are apparently associated to the 'death of Jesus'. So character death seems an adequate interpretation...but IMO the blood orange symbolizes the death of someone in the family. It's not Mycah, it may be Ned, as the blood splatters against Sansa's dress...so it's her who is stained/ who betrayed her father...but maybe there is even more to the foreshadowing? Arya throws the orange; after all...the gesture could well be a metaphor/analogy for Arya ‘killing’ Sansa. Replace the blood orange with Needle, the juice with real blood etc.

I’m not saying Arya will ‘kill’ her sister in a direct manner, or that killing is to be taken literally...but it could work. Jeyne Poole has taken Arya’s place, Sansa has become Alayne...So Arya could become Sansa with her little face changing tricks. Just a thought.

I'm not sure what scene this is with Littlefinger and Sansa, but even then, it works - both had their hand, unwittingly/unwillingly in Sansa's case in Ned and Lysa's death. Sansa's family. Robert Arryn might be next in line.

I just read this chapter and have a different take on it. I think the blood orange symbolizes the death of Sansa's childhood and innocence. When Arya throws the orange, it landed on her forehead and then fell onto her lap, staining the ivory dress Cersei had given her as a gift (to buy her affection presumably).

The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. "I hate her!" she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night's fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.

This strongly echoes the chapter in ACOK in which she gets her first period and becomes marraigable thus ending her childhood forever.

The blood orange incident could also symbolize the death of both girl's identity as Starks. After Sansa falls asleep she has a wolf dream about Lady but can hardly remember it. She thinks "The dream faded, and Lady was dead again."

It is not long after this that Ned is arrested and the Stark household killed. Arya becomes a flea bottom orphan and Sansa becomes a hostage separated from her fellow northerners. She doesn't have another wolf dream that I can remember.

[Fire Eater]

But when she [Cersei] cracked the first egg and found a bloody half-formed chick inside, her stomach roiled.

Eggs and chicks are symbols of rebirth, and the fire has symbol of cleansing. This is when Cersei rules in her own right as the Queen and ruler of the Seven Kingdoms, but like the chick her reign will be half-formed and bloody.

[Newstar]

When Arya throws the orange, it landed on her forehead and then fell onto her lap, staining the ivory dress Cersei had given her as a gift (to buy her affection presumably).

Could be. But if blood orange = death, Arya throws [death] at Sansa, and [death] "hits her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish" before falling into her lap and staining her dress, a "blotchy red" stain that Sansa eventually dyes her dress black (the colour of mourning in Westeros as well) to cover. Does that mean Arya "marked" Sansa for death? It seems significant that Sansa after ripping the stained dress off and going to sleep dreams of being reunited with her dead direwolf.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Could be. But if blood orange = death, Arya throws [death] at Sansa, and [death] "hits her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish" before falling into her lap and staining her dress, a "blotchy red" stain that Sansa eventually dyes her dress black (the colour of mourning in Westeros as well) to cover. Does that mean Arya "marked" Sansa for death? It seems significant that Sansa after ripping the stained dress off and going to sleep dreams of being reunited with her dead direwolf.

Sansa is somewhat responsible for the death of Lady, by not telling the truth that Nymeria was just defending Arya.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Does hippocras maybe have significance?? I know I only Falyse and Roose who drank it regularly but...

[Zaphodess]

Hippocras is spiced and sugared wine. As it was a luxury good in medieval times, it seems to indicate indulgence and luxury. But it was also said to have medicinal properties (though I wonder which those would be; in my personal experience, hippocras causes massive headaches, nothing else). And it was supposed to be an aphrodisiacum. Seems quite ambiguous to me.

I always assumed that Bolton's obsession with prunes was the same as his obsession with leaches. He is obsessed with purging in general - excrement and bad blood, respectively. It's interesting to see the prune references laid out like that. Bolton makes a comment about some unpleasant or irritating reality and then eats a cleansing prune.

Yes, that fits, though I can't reconcile his obvious obsession with hippocras with it. The bad blood thing is probably about Ramsay, he hates him and came to loathe everything about himself that he sees in his bastard son. I think he might be undecided whether he wants to purify his bloodline (himself and Ramsay) or whether he wants Ramsay and himself dead, and no heirs by Walda left, because he thinks that his house should have died with the son Ramsay murdered.

[King Tam Stark]

Its a convincing theory way of looking at thingsI'll give you that....

If its okay, I'd like to ask what is thought on the significance of eating horse meat. Three notable examples of characters butchering horses to eat are when Tyrion and co are on their way to the Vale (a horse he received from Jaime), Jaime and co at the inn with the false inn keep (the one that Arya would later find herself in with the BWB), and the armies of Roose and Stannis butchering their horses to sustain their men in the bleak cold.

Any input for the significance of eating horse meat?

A further example being Dany and Drogon at the end of Dance which seems to hint at something big though I wouldn't like to speculate with any degree of confidence, is it any more than horse meat being a sort of last resort as a food source because most of the times it's eaten it's as a last resort and turning something bad (the horse dyeing) in to something good(food to sustain you and keep you alive)or is it just a means of survival?

[Arya kiddin']

Any input for the significance of eating horse meat?

Horse makes man strong. It is known.

[a free shadow]

A lot of interesting things to read!

Thanks to TalalofDorne who brought up the three blood oranges with the Elia/Oberyn/Quentyn interpretation. It adds a lot to the scene and I will see it that way now. Also, I think Ragnorak has a good point by separating blood oranges from simply oranges.

I see pikes (carnivorous fish, often in folklore tales of different countries) and their dishes as having intentional symbolism and signifying that a deception is taking place and that it is done by a woman. As for the events yet to come, I would argue that the pike imaginery gives us a clue that Daenerys has a female enemy close in her household (possibly The Harpy) and that the "bad cat" pestering Tommen might really be trouble.

Pikes are dished only a handful of times throughout the books. In what can hardly be a coincidence, a herb-crusted pike is served only twice in the entire story and in two identical situations. Amerei Frey offers it to Jaime when she is asking him to kill Berric for her and Cersei is feeding it (among other dishes) to ser Balman when she is asking him to get rid of Bronn for her.

The serving men were bringing out the fish course, a river pike baked in a crust of herbs and crushed nuts. Lancel’s lady tasted it, approved, and commanded that the first portion be served to Jaime. As they set the fish before him, she leaned across her husband’s place to touch his golden hand. “You could kill Lord Beric, Ser Jaime. You slew the Smiley Knight. Please, my lord, I beg you, stay and help us with Lord Beric and the Hound.”

“I beg you, ser,” she whispered, “do not make me say it...”

“I understand.” Ser Balman raised a finger.

“You are a true knight indeed, ser. The answer to a frightened mother’s prayers.” The rest was hippocras and buttered beets, hot-baked bread, herb-crusted pike, and ribs of wild boar.

So we have a pike "disquised" in herbs and a power play disquised as a desperate cry for help. Amarei is more obvious with it, so she goes on and serves the pike directly, while Cersei offers it among the other things.

Another example is Cersei dining with Kevan, after her walk of shame. This time pike is roasted plain, but it is three feet long. You could argue that Cersei also lost many of her trappings in her ordeal, but she has still not abandoned her idea of her own grandeur and she is saying things like this:

When he asked if she had all that she required, the queen said, “I am well served. The girls are sweet, and the good septas make certain that I say my prayers..."

It can hardly be true, so she here is manipulating her uncle to her own ends. One more point for pikes being a symbol of womanly lies.

The contrary example is when Alys Karstark refuses pike at her wedding and goes to dance with her new husband instead. And we know her being true and straightforward with him.

Tyrion also comes across fishwives selling pikes.

The fishwives did more business than all the rest combined. Buyers flocked around the barrels and stalls to haggle over winkles, clams, and river pike. With no other food coming into the city, the price of fish was ten times what it had been before the war, and still rising.

Again, in context of haggling, some sort of distortion (even if for good reason).

Pike "disquised" in almond milk was also served at the red wedding, the event of cold calculation (where a girl (Roslyn) was used for deception). Though I admit this is a farther connection with a woman as the primary manipulator.

And there is the example from Daenerys' chapter:

In the afternoon a sculptor came, proposing to replace the head of the great bronze harpy in the Plaza of Purification with one cast in Dany’s image. She denied him with as much courtesy as she could muster. A pike of unprecedented size had been caught in the Skahazadhan, and the fisherman wished to give it to the queen. She admired the fish extravagantly, rewarded the fisherman with a purse of silver, and sent the pike to her kitchens.

Daenerys sends the pike "to her kitchens". It means she puts it close to her, and she "admires it" as well. This imaginery also comes straight after the image of "the harpy". Distance in public vs nearness in private.

And the last note on pike as well as another possible warning sign has to do with Tommen. At the same above mentioned dinner Cersei and Kevan had, Tommen is feeding pieces of pike to one of his kittens:

From soup to sweet Tommen burbled about the exploits of his kittens, whilst feeding them morsels of pike off his own royal plate. “The bad cat was outside my window last night,” he informed Kevan at one point, “but Ser Pounce hissed at him and he ran off across the roofs.”

Here we have pike mentioned side by side with the "bad cat", which many think has greater significance and might be used against Tommen, possibly warged by Arya. Ser Pounce anihilating the pike meant for Tommen's plate could mean the kitten is seeing through that deception :D

Edit: The first version was in a rush, hopefully this one is better.

[Greymoon]

Hippocras is spiced and sugared wine. As it was a luxury good in medieval times, it seems to indicate indulgence and luxury. But it was also said to have medicinal properties (though I wonder which those would be; in my personal experience, hippocras causes massive headaches, nothing else). And it was supposed to be an aphrodisiacum. Seems quite ambiguous to me.

I assumed that in the asoiaf context Hippocras = hypocrit, hypocrisy, hypocritical etc. the words sound similar, and the contexts in which Cersei and Bolton drink Hippocras ring of hypocrisy...not to mention that this particular trait both characters seem to share.

IMO, Hippocras is essentially the same as spiced wine/mulled wine. So why use a different name only with particular protagonists and in particular circumstances?

[a free shadow]

Edit: Unnecessary now :ninja:

[Greymoon]

Any input for the significance of eating horse meat?

A further example being Dany and Drogon at the end of Dance which seems to hint at something big though I wouldn't like to speculate with any degree of confidence, is it any more than horse meat being a sort of last resort as a food source because most of the times it's eaten it's as a last resort and turning something bad (the horse dyeing) in to something good(food to sustain you and keep you alive)or is it just a means of survival?

No idea about horse meat in general, but it was my understanding that Dothrakis eat quite a lot of horse meat on a daily basis, no? Anyway, I found this...

White horses (which are rarer than other colours of horse) have a special significance in the mythologies of cultures around the world. They are often associated with the sun chariot, with warrior-heroes, with fertility (in both mare and stallion manifestations), or with an end-of-time saviour, but other interpretations exist as well. Both truly white horses and the more common grey horse, with completely white hair coats, were identified as "white" by various religious and cultural traditions.[...]

The mythological symbolism of white horses has been picked up as a trope in literature, film, and other storytelling. For example, the heroic prince or white knight of fairy tales often rides a white horse. [...] The white horse is a recurring motif in Ibsen's play Rosmersholm, making use of the common Norse folklore that its appearance was a portent of death. [...] More contemporary examples include Terry Pratchett's choosing white as the colour for Death's horse Binky in his Discworld series, or J.R.R. Tolkien's choice of white for Gandalf's horse Shadowfax in The Lord of the Rings.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_horse_%28mythology%29#Norse

In Old Norse Religion in Long-Term Perspectives, authors Anders Andrén, Kristina Jennbert, and Catharina Raudvere tell of the use of the horse as a divinatory tool by early Western Slavic tribes. This method, called hippomancy, involved the breeding of sacred horses to be used as oracles. Divination was performed when a horse walked over two spears placed in the ground in front of a temple. The pattern in which the horse stepped over the spears – including whether or not a hoof touched the spears – all helped the shamans determine the outcome of the matter at hand.

Sometimes, a horse is representative of doom and despair. Death is one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and each of the four rides a different colored horse. In the Book of Revelations, Death arrives on a pale horse: “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

Interestingly, this Death image is repeated in the Tarot, as the Death card is typically portrayed as arriving on the back of a pale horse. However, it’s important to remember that this card doesn’t actually mean physical death – instead, it’s symbolic of transformation and rebirth. In that context, one might almost look at the horse as a guide on the journey to a new beginning. If horses are magical, and can walk or fly between the worlds, perhaps the horse’s presence indicates a recognition that this change is not just material or physical, but that it goes all the way into our soul.

from http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/othermagicspells/p/HorseMagic.htm

A bit of topic, but this made me wonder about Dany... both for the symbolism of the pale mare and Dany's white horse...as in, is Dany the Hero prince, or is she Death? I like the second possibility...another subversion of the hero trope by GRRM.

On another note, if dragon may be compared to a horse...it's possible that the 'warrior hero on a pale stallion' is, in fact the one person who ends up riding Viserion...and the 'King' whomever rides Rhaegal - if it's pronounced Rei-gal and not Ra-ei-gal, as I used to read it, then it approximastes 'Regal', regalis lat. (from Rex 'King') royal/kingly and Regalianus Usurpers of the Roman Empire. ;)

[Dr. Pepper]

.....made me think of pork. How, and where it is mentioned in the story. Pork is, of course, a cousin to boar, and is insinuated to be.....gulp....you know...shudder....human. I need to think on your logic of boar, and the scenes in which we see pork as well, also where it is unmentionably human. Not that it will unlock a huge mystery, but just to see if there is a pattern. Have you spoken of this? If it was in the thread I missed it.

I was thinking about this too as something in real life reminded me of Frey Pies. I only did a search in ADWD. Lots of salted pork. Something interesting and really gross - Victarion's fire god arm looks like pork crackling.

A bit of topic, but this made me wonder about Dany... both for the symbolism of the pale mare and Dany's white horse...as in, is Dany the Hero prince, or is she Death? I like the second possibility...another subversion of the hero trope by GRRM.

Very good point and could be a good discussion point for the bride of fire vision sequence.

[a free shadow]

A bit of topic, but this made me wonder about Dany... both for the symbolism of the pale mare and Dany's white horse...as in, is Dany the Hero prince, or is she Death? I like the second possibility...another subversion of the hero trope by GRRM.

I wondered that as well. I am not an expert on horses of the books, but I can't remember anyone else riding a white one. Was there anyone?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

A bit of topic, but this made me wonder about Dany... both for the symbolism of the pale mare and Dany's white horse...as in, is Dany the Hero prince, or is she Death?

You are not the only one who sees that. I think far, far, far too many people write off the silver horse in the "bride of fire" sequence as Drogo without actually looking for plausible alternative meanings.

[Robin the Mighty]

Lemons seems to signify innocence as per Sansa + lemoncakes (and various characters who are nostalgic for those bakery treats from time to time, like Arya) and Dany's recurring memory of the lemon tree.

Pomegranates seem to be associated with duplicity (I should specify I mean a sort of Faustian bargain), which is pretty similar to the symbolism in our own world (Littlefinger offering the pomegranate to Sansa; Bowen's existence).

I can't believe he forgot about this, lemoncakes and lemon tree ( Dany) are repeated trough out the series, also I think other types of wine should be looked at?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I can't believe he forgot about this, lemoncakes and lemon tree ( Dany) are repeated trough out the series, also I think other types of wine should be looked at?

We have Arbor red and Arbor gold nailed down. I know there's Dornish reds and hippocras, if you wanna take a stab.

[upfish]

I'm not seeing much of a pattern but here are the mentions.

Beets served at the harvest festival at winterfell. Bran send beets to Lil Walder.

Beets at Red Wedding.

Cersei and Kevan eat beets after Tywin dies and Cersei is asking Kevan to be hand after Jame refused.

Beets part of the meal with Balman and Falyse (when Cersei thinks how much she's come to love boar).

Sweet beets grown in Volantis and part of a popular dish.

And beets at the wall.

I'm not seeing a pattern with these, but it's not necessary that all food becomes part of the code. Too much work, I say.

okay so i've been thinking about this one a lot, and i've seen two explanations for it so far, both of which were good, one being marked for death the other loss of power. my idea has been maybe the meaning of beets is twofold, the server loses power, the served is marked for death. so bran serves little walder beets, soon after losing winterfell to theon, and much latter little walder dies. freys serve beets at the red wedding, the guests die and the freys are held in contentment for breaking guest rights. cersei serves kevan beets and loses power when he refuses to be hand of the king, kevan is latter killed. cersi serves beets to balman and falyse when telling him o kill bronn, her plan fails marking another loss in power, and balman and falyse die. the last two though... i don't know, i'm not sure if there is a server or served.

[WeaselPie]

Great thread, I've enjoyed reading through it...How might "unborn puppies" as a food item fit into this? They're only mentioned twice from what I remember.

Kraznys: "I will feed her jellied dog brains, and a fine rich stew of red octopus and unborn puppy."

Then there are unborn puppies on a stick at the Pit in Mereen.

Each time they're mentioned (Dany never eats them), there's a killing spree involving Dany and her dragons immediately following. It's pretty obvious what "unborn puppy" might mean.

A stretch? Or a tiny clue?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I put this in the foreshadowing thread but I think it really belongs here. I literally cannot believe I didn't notice it sooner.

One of Meereen's biggest non-slave trades is in olives and olive products like oil. Before Dany sacked the city, the nobles burned the olive trees in a scorched-earth tactic.

When Xaro visits Dany -- a meeting that ends with him saying he should have killed her in Qarth and Qarth declaring war on Dany -- he tells her that he will take all of the olives and olive oil she's willing to sell. Dany says she has none to offer him and that they're trying to replant the trees but it will take years before they start to bear fruit and decades before they can be truly productive.

Harry Strickland tells Griff and Co. that Dany seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming the throne. Dany and her olives end up being sort of a running joke in the exchange.

When Dany eats breakfast on the day she marries Hizdahr, she's nibbling on an olive that Missandei has brought her while she makes the final deliberation to go ahead with the marriage.

When Dany is out in the Dothraki Sea, she thinks that dragons plant no trees; the only trees she's been planting lately are olive trees.

Traditionally, in our own world, olive trees represent peace and diplomacy. Extending the olive branch and whatnot.

1. The Meereenese destroying the olive trees demonstrates that the opportunity for any peace here has been destroyed.

2. Xaro's offer to buy olive products — symbolically indicative of his willingness to negotiate and work with Dany — and Dany's subsequent inability to sell them to him because they're unavailable demonstrate the end of peace between Dany and Qarth.

3. Likewise, the note about the olive trees taking decades to become productive shows that peace in Meereen will not happen overnight, but will take a very, very long time, if it happens at all.

4. The Golden Company's take that Dany would rather plant olive trees than win back the Iron Throne demonstrates that at this moment, her head is in Meereen trying to make some sort of peace.

5. Dany marries Hizdahr to secure peace in the city. Note that she's nibbling the olive, the peace symbol, right before she decides to go through with it after all.

6. Finally, Dany deciding that dragons don't plant (olive) trees is really her way of owning up to the fact that she is incapable of bringing and/or creating peace. She's embracing destruction and fire -- note that this goes back in a circular way to the Meereenese, who destroyed their own "peace" (the olive trees) with fire.