Anyone let down by Andal and First Men history?

[Maia]

I think people just fail to realize that the First Men likely outnumbered the Andals by about 10-1. So the Andals had no choice but to assimilate wit them.

Sure, but even the Norman conquest of Britain, where the invaders only largely displaced nobility, didn't leave so many of the old families in power, as is already evident in AGoT.

There was always a contradiction between what various PoVs said about the Andal Conquest, which sounded more like Anglo-Saxon conquest of England, where the populace at large was displaced, as well as absorbed into invaders, and the prominence of noble Houses with the First Man names. GRRM may not have thought it through in the beginning... or he may have always planned a bit of a twist there.

Re: the Citadel, it being the initially the First Men institution explains why they have ravenry and study "higher mysteries". Andals, being thoroughly non-magical, would have been unlikely to introduce either. Knowledge was likely mostly conveyed orally, like among the druids. Etc.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

There seems to have been lots of Children south of the neck though when the Andals came The COTF seem to have been fine in the south until the Andals came, whereas in the North there seems to have been more wars fought.. Many families worked with them or consulted them in the South on what to do with these invaders.

Well we know that the Children were in hiding before the Andal invasion. The Storm King went looking for them for an alliance. Eventually the Children retreated North and then even further North beyond the wall, mirroring the retreat of magic; always there but hard to access. So it stands to reason that the northerners would have been around the children for longer and those beyond the wall longest. We see that wargs are known and frequent beyond the wall in contemporary Westeros. In Theory skinchangers should get rarer the more south you go, which appears to be the pattern. Bloodraven being the most southerly skinchanger we know, son of a Blackwood. And we know that at least up to the Andal Invasion the Children were not far away from the Blackwoods and both likely spent time at High Heart. By the time of the faith war in the Riverlands they would appear to have moved on or were dead as they were not called on for an alliance.

[Jaak]

And we know that at least up to the Andal Invasion the Children were not far away from the Blackwoods and both likely spent time at High Heart. By the time of the faith war in the Riverlands they would appear to have moved on or were dead as they were not called on for an alliance.

Which "faith war" do you mean?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Which "faith war" do you mean?

The war against the Teagues and the faith militant who tried to surpress the old gods, where they allied with Houses Tully, Vance and Durrandon

[asimetrikal]

hi, everyone. i've been scouring all the message boards for the past couple of weeks for any tidbits about the andals i can find. i'm writing a short overview and speculative reconstructed history of the andals. studying this shit intensely for way longer than i should have has led me to a few realizations and a couple other conclusions regarding the andals and their place in the world of the novels (hint: they're really, really important).

as to the question proffered by the OP: the first men did have a civilization. they knew metal-working, they lived in settlements, they practiced agriculture and made music and produced art. they built buildings and baked bread. but their culture was stagnant, insular and fractious. i can not stress that last point enough. consider the following examples for why the culture of the first men was primed for defeat by an external enemy and that, in the end, it probably deserved to be replaced.

=THE ADVANTAGES OF ANDAL CULTURE=

- the first men had bronze when then they came over the dorne land bridge 8000 years before the andals came. now i think this is bullshit, as they probably only came 4-5k years before the andals, but in either case, they did not develop technologically in that period of time. the rhoynar, the sarnori, the yi tish, the valyrians and yes the andals mastered iron, steel, complex AND durable state structures and one hugely important technology, which is...

- writing! not only did the andals have a writing system, they had a fucking awesome writing system. we can't be sure of the exact nature of the 'in-universe' alphabet but we know that it is contrasted with a. valyrian, which had a writing system based on logograms (i.e. glyphs) and the alphabet of the first men which was runes. it seems that the andal alphabet is alphabetic, meaning distinct characters responding to certain sets of sounds in a reliably predictable way and covering both consonants and vowels. we can't be sure where the andals got their writing system but they did NOT get it from the valyrians.

- the horse. there are good reasons to believe that the first men didn't actually have horses, despite what might be said by certain characters, even maesters, in the books. and even if they did have horses, they were comparatively rare compared to their use on essos and the technological, political and economic development the widespread use of horses afforded.

- a socially unifying concept that allowed the formation of large, populous political entities. for the andals this is usually taken to be the faith of the seven. i agree with this, but think the faith itself rose from an earlier, more fundamental change in early andal culture. i don't want to say too much before i've finished my paper, but suffice it to say the description of westeros as 'the 100 petty kingdoms of the first men' before the andal invasion is an apt moniker. only rarely did kings rise up to conquer large territories and then they would only hold it for a while. the exception to this seems to be the north, where either the low population made large scale political organization possible or the wall/the wildlings/the others served as a focal point , a problem to be solved, around which the people could gather.

- a deep cultural-religious repugnance to slavery. slavery was/is absolutely malodorous to the andals, and they took this proscription everywhere they went, and to the modern day wherever an andal king reigns slavers are put to the sword. unless of course they flee their punishment like jorah the 'andal'. how ironic that jorah is from a proud northern house - a far northern house, isolated on an island, no doubt, of heavy first men descent - but he fled the seven kingdoms for breaking a law brought to westeros by andals in the first place. the andals also have a strong aversion to human sacrifice and cannibalism, and this is the source of many ancient cultural conflicts between the first men and the andals.

- the traditions of the knight and the maester. these are both andal traditions rooted in service to a lord, which, the thinking goes, puts you in service to all people as serving the lord will also serve his subjects. the knight is bound to protect the weak and innocent with his arm, while the maesters serve the people through learning, healing and teaching, hence the colloquial label 'knights of the mind'.

=WEAKNESSES OF THE FIRST MEN CULTURE=

- the first men developed, basically, sweet fuck all new technology for anywhere between 5-8k years. the Wall was built by the first men, with the aid of the magic of the children, and they did also built lannisport and old town. consider that those great cities of first men were also on the west coast of westeros, that is visited by a large number of international travellers, especially because even then the westerlands and the reach were festering with wealth. what i mean to say is it's worth asking how much of the technology and understanding required to build these two urban centers was actually first men in provenance?

- it's no surprise that the first men couldn't accumulate enough material culture to develop as much or as quickly as other societies did. it's hard to do when you can't write anything down. yes, runes from the time of the first men still exist, no, no one can read them anymore. but bear in mind, the ability to read the runes had already been lost by the time of the andal invasion. whoever knew how to read the runic script had left or died out a long time before without passing on that knowledge. for the OP, isn't there a huge difference between an literate and illiterate culture?

- you'll see many references to the first men using horses when they came to westeros, but you'll also see references to their 'walking' across the arm of dorne and 'marching' through dorne on their way to settle the continent. we seem to have some conflicting evidence on whether or not the first men even HAD horses. to actually make the salient point, let's assume the first men did have them, or at least had them when they first came to westeros. by the time the andals came, their control of the horse or the number of horses at their disposal had so dwindled that effectively first men had to relearn horse culture from the andal conquerors.

- there were 100 kingdoms constantly rising and falling in westeros while the first men ruled. there may be many reasons for this, such as no unifying central figure, no horses and no writing to facilitate trading networks and therefore no widespread sense of shared cultural identity, or simply and perhaps most damningly there was just no cultural impetus to develop in this way. we must assume that in so many thousands of years at least some of the first men travelled to essos, being exposed to iron, horses, books and new social ideas. the telling point is that none of these, in all those years, ever, ever, EVER took root among the first men and led to some new development. in many situations during the andal invasion, the first men outnumbered the invaders by 10 to 1, and their cultural competency and technical ability were SO LOW that even in those situations the andals rode roughshod over them.

as nations, as people, the first men just folded like a cheap suit.

- you will see references and dialogue in the novels suggesting slavery has always been forbidden in westeros, among the old gods and the new. this is almost certainly a historically unfounded conflation of andal custom and first men custom before the conquest. we have four incidents in the book that throw serious doubt on the idea that the old gods forbade slavery. first, the strongest evidence, is the still practiced custom among the ironborn to take thralls and salt wives. next, we know it was only recently (1000 years or so) that the tradition of prima noctae has been forbidden, and even then my man roose decided to take his 'ancient right'. thirdly, craster sacrifices his fucking babies to the gods! he exchanges their lives for his safety and comfort. isn't that what slavery is? lastly, when bran greensees, he sees at a time in the past when the first men practiced human sacrifice and a man's throat was slit in front of a weirwood in ritual practice. if the old gods 'demand' the abandonment of infants, and accept human sacrifice as appeasement, i find it hard to believe they'd have a HUGE issue with slavery. oh, and yeh, the skagosi still practice cannibalism.

- there doesn't appear to have been a demographic group culturally recognized and charged with a mission of service to others. the night's watch existed of course, but this was restricted geographically, and since it was so heavily manned by northmen, it essentially functioned as an autonomous garrison for guarding the king in the north's frontier. knights and maesters are better equipped, better trained, better educated and, quite frankly, better off than the men on the wall. they can go ANYWHERE to serve ANYONE.

i will make some concessions now: the first men, after that was with the children, seemed especially good at honoring their commitments. the tradition of guest right is moral, honorable, reasonable and should be adopted by all cultures. an understanding of, if not reverence for, the environment around you is rational and productive, and keeping the old gods seems to allow for this. the practice of using ravens is one thing now monopolized by maesters that they had no earthly clue how to do before they learned it from the first men, and they seem to me, in general, to be a very 'relatable' people, as opposed to the entitled valyrians or braggart, ambitious andals.

TL;DR SUMMARY: the first men are a bronze-age people, with bronze-age technology and bronze-age ideas. they had/have trouble organizing for any meaningful length of time on large scales because they have not yet moved past the intense tribalism that characterizes bronze-age societies. if you look, smell or talk different from them, they're going to bleed you for their face trees and then they're gonna fuck your wife. they stagnated technologically and culturally, and someone, sooner or later, was going to come in and roll over their civilization like a saltwater crocodile. from a darwinian perspective, the andals ARE better because they succeeded in their invasion. but i believe from a moral perspective the andals are superior as well.

[BrainFireBob]

Those were my main problems as well. I expected that the coming of the Andals would topple the existing order and shake things to the core. But the social status quo never really changed, just some new houses sprang up and positioned themselves right into existing slots. The kingdoms continued as before, in their more or less established borders, their ancient enmities continued much as they have. If I didn't know there were these guys called Andals, I'd be hard pressed to notice any significant difference between, say, pre-Andal Reach and post-Andal Reach, at least as presented in the world book.

Even TWoIaF itself seems to contradict itself, maybe because different parts of the book were written by Martin and Elio/Linda. For example, the early Arrival of the Andals section states the following:

...The First Men found themselves losing war after war, and kingdom after kingdom, to the Andal invaders. The battles and wars were endless, but eventually all the southron kingdoms fell. As with the Valemen, some submitted to the Andals, even taking up the faith of the Seven. In many cases, the Andals took the wives and daughters of the defeated kings to wife. (...) The fact that many southron castles still have godswoods(...) is said to be thanks to the early Andal kings who shifted from conquest to consolidation.

But none of this is true according to later sections. It's not true that all the southron kingdoms fell; in fact the three most significant didn't. It's not true that the southern First Men submitted, taking up the Faith. They took the Faith all right, but majority of them didn't in fact submit and continued as before. The fact that southron castles still have godswoods isn't thanks to early Andal kings because, as indicated, early Andals were never kings over vast majority of southern Westeros. It was primarily the houses of the First Men that preserved weirwood trees, as they were never conquered although they did over time adopt the Faith.

There's evident incongruity at work here.

I'm guessing you don't know much about the Norman invasion, which seems to be the main parallel; more than the Saxon at least (although there's some overlap there too, with Cornwall=Dorne and Scotland=the North).

Andals came in at the top, added a new priest caste, and began to write all the histories about how they changed everything- except they didn't, they put themselves at the top of the existing hierarchy. That's realism right there.

First Men used thralls. Andals didn't.

[TheSovereignGrave]

TL;DR SUMMARY: the first men are a bronze-age people, with bronze-age technology and bronze-age ideas. they had/have trouble organizing for any meaningful length of time on large scales because they have not yet moved past the intense tribalism that characterizes bronze-age societies. if you look, smell or talk different from them, they're going to bleed you for their face trees and then they're gonna fuck your wife. they stagnated technologically and culturally, and someone, sooner or later, was going to come in and roll over their civilization like a saltwater crocodile. from a darwinian perspective, the andals ARE better because they succeeded in their invasion. but i believe from a moral perspective the andals are superior as well.

I don't want to take up too much space, so I didn't quote your entire post but I'm going to point out some issues I saw with your ideas.

First of all, by the time the Andals invaded the North, the Reach, the Rock, the Stormlands, and the Iron Isles were all united Kingdoms. It was the Riverlands, the Vale, and Dorne that were splintered and fractured when the first Andals set foot on Westeros. So I don't this 'the First Men were incapable of uniting into large kingdoms' thing from.

Secondly, the maesters aren't an Andal invention; the Citadel was founded by Urrigon Hightower, back during the time of the First Men when the Hightowers were Kings.

Third, the Andals were always staunch opponents of slavery? Because after the Battle of the Seven Stars they didn't have any problem with enslaving the First Men who refused to bend the knee. And your point about the practice of the First Night is kind of moot when the Andals kept on practicing it too; it wasn't outlawed until the reign of Jaehaerys I.

And finally, where exactly did you get your info that nobody could read runes when the Andals invaded? Sure, nobody can read them anymore, but nobody South of the Wall speaks the Old Tongue anymore either.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I agree with the OP. Except for the Vale, the coming of the Andals is surprisingly boring in the wordbook. All the First Men could have just converted to the 7 and the story wouldn't really be changed.

However, I've speculated that many Southern are simply lying about their "First Men" origins. The scribes and historians of the Andal conquerors could have rewritten the histories to make them seem much older and more established than they were, and the Maesters would later treat this propaganda as fact. Control the language and you control the history.

For example, it's heavily implied that the Hoares are not actually one of the ancient Ironborn houses. They took the crown from the Greyirons after the Andals invaded the Iron Islands, and were accused of having the "Andal taint" by the natives. We read about King Qhored Hoare from the First Men era, but are then told he might actually have been a Blacktyde, so it seems like the Hoares were falsely claiming some of the Driftwood Kings as their own.

[The Grey Wolf]

I agree with the OP as well. When reading about the Andal invasion I was like "this is it?" Apart from the Vale none of the other kingdoms fell. Not even the Riverlands (in the sense that the Vale did)! In all honesty GRRM should have written, to keep it in line with the books, that the Riverlands fell like the Vale, the Stormlands fell and the king slain and his daughter married to the victorious Andals like what later happened with Orys (considering that they fought the Andals the most), in Dorne the andals outnumbered the First Men by the end of the invasion, and the Westerlands were defeated but the Lannisters and their bannermen kept their seats by heavily intermarrying then and not before but that's just what I think.

[Brianstorm]

I'm guessing you don't know much about the Norman invasion, which seems to be the main parallel; more than the Saxon at least (although there's some overlap there too, with Cornwall=Dorne and Scotland=the North).

It's clearly more similar to the Anglo-Saxon invasion with William's Norman invasion being an almost direct paralel with the Aegon's Targaryen invasion. Dorne is also quite obviously closer to Spain than any other real life region, though they aren't exactly 1 to 1.

[Lion of the West]

I agree with the OP as well. When reading about the Andal invasion I was like "this is it?" Apart from the Vale none of the other kingdoms fell. Not even the Riverlands (in the sense that the Vale did)! In all honesty GRRM should have written, to keep it in line with the books, that the Riverlands fell like the Vale, the Stormlands fell and the king slain and his daughter married to the victorious Andals like what later happened with Orys (considering that they fought the Andals the most), in Dorne the andals outnumbered the First Men by the end of the invasion, and the Westerlands were defeated but the Lannisters and their bannermen kept their seats by heavily intermarrying then and not before but that's just what I think.

I agree entirely. The whole Andal fiasco in Westeos makes no sense and only works by logic being executed in a back alley before it begins.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I completely respect the protestant faith but to sit there and say its an advancement from Catholicism when people of both opinions were massacred is unsettling. France is the most secular nation in Europe, traditionally catholic. And the reformation wasnt backed up by mass literacy. They took out the images and left the unlettered even more in the dark. Nor was the reformation a popular mass movement, it was top down and eventually fines were introduced if you didnt go to protestant mass.

I never forget Simon Schama saying at school even as a jew he got the anglican propaganda about the reformation, it wasnt until he became a historian he saw through the lies. Its not about beliefs anymore, its about state sponsored privilege.

Why do you assume advancement=positive, protestantism was an advancement of Catholicism because Catholicism came first, just because you don't see the new tenants as bringing us closer to the social and moral views we have today doesn't mean it isn't an advancement.

[Bironic]

I agree with the OP. Except for the Vale, the coming of the Andals is surprisingly boring in the wordbook. All the First Men could have just converted to the 7 and the story wouldn't really be changed.

However, I've speculated that many Southern are simply lying about their "First Men" origins. The scribes and historians of the Andal conquerors could have rewritten the histories to make them seem much older and more established than they were, and the Maesters would later treat this propaganda as fact. Control the language and you control the history.

For example, it's heavily implied that the Hoares are not actually one of the ancient Ironborn houses. They took the crown from the Greyirons after the Andals invaded the Iron Islands, and were accused of having the "Andal taint" by the natives. We read about King Qhored Hoare from the First Men era, but are then told he might actually have been a Blacktyde, so it seems like the Hoares were falsely claiming some of the Driftwood Kings as their own.

I thought about this as well. In the real world lots of nobles claimed to be related to some famous forebear without any proof of this. Cesar for example traced his ancestry back to the Trojans.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Those were my main problems as well. I expected that the coming of the Andals would topple the existing order and shake things to the core. But the social status quo never really changed, just some new houses sprang up and positioned themselves right into existing slots. The kingdoms continued as before, in their more or less established borders, their ancient enmities continued much as they have. If I didn't know there were these guys called Andals, I'd be hard pressed to notice any significant difference between, say, pre-Andal Reach and post-Andal Reach, at least as presented in the world book.

Even TWoIaF itself seems to contradict itself, maybe because different parts of the book were written by Martin and Elio/Linda. For example, the early Arrival of the Andals section states the following:

...The First Men found themselves losing war after war, and kingdom after kingdom, to the Andal invaders. The battles and wars were endless, but eventually all the southron kingdoms fell. As with the Valemen, some submitted to the Andals, even taking up the faith of the Seven. In many cases, the Andals took the wives and daughters of the defeated kings to wife. (...) The fact that many southron castles still have godswoods(...) is said to be thanks to the early Andal kings who shifted from conquest to consolidation.

But none of this is true according to later sections. It's not true that all the southron kingdoms fell; in fact the three most significant didn't. It's not true that the southern First Men submitted, taking up the Faith. They took the Faith all right, but majority of them didn't in fact submit and continued as before. The fact that southron castles still have godswoods isn't thanks to early Andal kings because, as indicated, early Andals were never kings over vast majority of southern Westeros. It was primarily the houses of the First Men that preserved weirwood trees, as they were never conquered although they did over time adopt the Faith.

There's evident incongruity at work here.

I've separated these, but they all work together to explain the "fall" of the southron kingdoms - 1) I don't think it was a militaristic "fall" I think it was a cultural "fall." Not "conquered" with military might, but overwhelmed culturally (ie - Christianity in Ancient Rome wasn't "approved" of by the leaders, but the slaves and lower classes loved it, so eventually the Roman upper class were obliged to adopt it themselves; if the smallfolk loved the FotS the same way the smallfolk of Rome did, it's likely the upper classes were obliged to adopt FotS eventually as well). 2) They very well could have submitted to an Andal, married said Andal's daughter to a son (or Andal son to FM daughter - w/e) and converted to FotS but kept their land, their titles, even their weirwood tree if they wished. 3) The weirwoods seem to be maintained in the south as a token. It's a status symbol, a way to show-off their ancient ties to the First Men.

And that is where I think TWoIaF failed. The way it described the southern FM kingdoms, there's almost nothing of that early, primal, and nature-bound culture to be seen. I always point to the Rhoynar as the perfect counterexample. Now there's a culture that was very vivid and different, and really brought change to those it came in contact with. Pre-Rhoynar Dorne and post-Rhoynar Dorne? They're almost worlds apart. Even Ironborn are greatly served in this book, their crazy and specific culture coming alive with every page. Compare that to pre-Andal Reach/Westerlands and post-Andal Reach/Westerlands. They're practically the same thing.

But the Rhoynish 1) weren't really "invading" they were refugees looking for a place to live that wasn't going to try to kill them (a la Yeen) 2) Rhoynish arrived much more recently than the Andals, so the information, while still ~1000 years old, is much more recent and therefore a bit more accurate (and not altered by the whole "winners write history" because by then the now-Andal influenced Citadel was writing the histories everywhere) 3) I think it's not so obvious in the pre & post Andal Reach & Westerlands because the changes were superficial at first with a lasting impact historically - the biggest immediate change in the Reach and Westerlands was religion. And it was that change in religion that changed the stories about pre-Andal Reach/Westerlands. In TWOIAF, when they mention Garth the Green it states that the most ancient stories they have about Garth include blood sacrifices to him - that would probably be the original FM story and all the later stories have been influenced by the Andal culture and FotS in order to alter Garth to their purposes (you see this type of thing in the early Christian era as well with Mithras and Eostre and other deities getting taken over or altered to fit with the Christian doctrine of the time). So there are little clues that the Andals have altered the FM religion to suit the purposes of the FotS - and keep in mind, this would have taken generations.

I think that the maesters being of First Men origin. It brings something to the First Men that has been lacking, a priestly class of sorts. The Maesters may of once been like Druids, or if we look at Westeros, they may have once been like the priests of the Drowned God. With the way the Maesters lay down their surnames, and serve those who rule the seat of power at any given point, regardless of legal rights, or perhaps in past, the land, it seems to make sense. With the coming of the Andals and written language, their order likely became very different from what it once was.

I think the idea of the Maesters in ancient times being a priestly class on par with the priests of the Drowned Gods makes a lot of sense, and explains why the First Men never really had a holy caste if you don't count the Green men on the Isle of Faces.

I think when reading we should also remember that much of history would be viewed in the eyes of current life, much like King David being shown as a knight, in modern armour, even those he of course was not a knight, and armour levels of his day were vastly different. The differences between Andal and First Men might not have been major other then sailing, written language, steel, religion, knighthood, etc. Much of the minor details likely weren't mentioned, but added a lot to the cultures being different. Blood price for the killing of someone's family member is I believe a First Men thing, as was the First Night, First Men also seemed to have been more clan based, and these clan could easily been seen as houses as in the current story. Thraldom was a First Men thing, and not only a Ironborn thing. That seems to have vanished with the Andals arriving.

Many houses claim links to ancient heroes, which may or may not be true, and this is stated in the book. Arty Arryn is said told to be two people, 1 the Andal, and 1 a hero from the Vale in the Age of Heroes, whose real name is likely lost, but allows the Arryns to claim to have a storied history as much as any house.

I think it would be wrong to consider each of these regions as fully united as well. Petty kings popped up and fell as much in Westeros as with the real world. The Storm Kings for example fought for generations before the arrival of the Andals over Masseys Hook, who had their own King. Lands often rebelled and broke away. It's not unlike the Kings of Wessex becoming the Kings of England. Their power rose and fell, but in the end they became top dogs. Some of these kingdoms might have only lasted for a generation or two before being swallowed, and then reborn by some new warlord. We also know that at the arrival of the Andals the Darklyns and Mootons were still kings, and winning battles against the Andals and forcing them instead towards the Stormlands. House Mudd never ruled over the whole of the Riverlands, maybe not even half of it, and as such there were likely many petty kings in the area, and these houses could have suffered the most and became extinct.

I think the more you dig, the more the two become different cultures. It does also make sense that much of the old First Men houses remain, at least in name and blood. The Andal invasion often seemed like the Saxon invasions, and now even more so. The Andals became the more powerful of the two people, with the First Men retaining power mostly through politics and marriage alliances and converting. As such the Andals would see themselves as the more noble, powerful, and better of the two. As the generations went on, lords, and nobles would want to be known as Andal instead of First Men, and to be known as First Men was likely something only the proud claimed. When the powerful lords, and kings claim to be Andal, lesser men will do likewise to gain favour.

I agree Lord Stark! Lots of petty kingdoms, lots of marriage alliances, lots of converting, even lots of fighting - not so much winning. In this respect, especially, they are a lot like the Saxons and the Danes invading England - there were always more back in Andalos to call over, while the FM did not have a (seemingly) infinite supply of men to fight. I think it's not so much that they "won" against any of the FM houses, just that losing a battle to the FM meant the Andals would come back and try again later! And again, and again, until finally the poor king with no more men left finally makes a peace deal and marries a daughter (cause all his sons died fighting) to an Andal - TA DA! Andal takeover!

My reasoning goes something like this:

-4,000 Long Night

-2,000 Andal Invasion

-1,000 Coming of the Rhoynar (this last is confirmed in TWoIaF)

There are numbers, especially in the Riverlands and Iron Islands chapters that lead me to believe that the Andals came around 2,000 years ago. Things go significantly out of sync if other commonly believed dates are used, like 4,000 or 6,000 years.

As for the Long Night, I approximate using following logic: Andals are said to have fled before the might of Valyria. If we accept the above numbers as correct, it was about 2,000 years ago. But, if the Long Night was 6,000 years ago, it would mean that the Valyrian westward expansion was halted for millennia after destroying the Ghiscari Empire (estimated to have happened some 5,000 years ago) for no clear reason. Reading the section of the World book on the Rhoynish-Valyrian conflict and the Free Cities, I find it hard to believe that the Valyrians didn't move west for thousands of years, or if they did establish Volantis and some of the other Free Cities relatively early, that it took thousands of years until finally those cities came to blows with the Rhoynar (since we know for certain that the exodus of the Rhoynar happened 1,000 years ago). That's not the impression I get from the book.

So, to expand on the above numbers: Long Night 4,000 years ago. Soon after, Ghiscari Empire rises and rules for centuries, let's say nice and fat 1,000-1,500 years. Valyrians finally crush them around -2,500. Afterward they turn their eyes westward and come into conflict with Andals around -2,000 and the Rhoynar several centuries later.

Keeps the history moving at a nice quickish pace. :read:

Valyria never seemed to me to be the expansionist type empire that Rome was. Most, if not all, of the Valyrian wars seem to be Valyria being attacked/threatened and retaliating rather than "expand, expand, expand." So, Republican Rome - the expansionist policies didn't really affect Rome until late-Republic era (like almost dead, late-Republic) and they really kicked off in the early Empirical Rome. But that might just be me...

Well, if we go a little meta, looks to me that Martin changed his mind somewhere along the way. If over two thirds of the houses in the books are of First Men origin, I'd expect that Martin, known for his meticulous worlduilding, would have remarked upon that in some way in the novels. However, he continuously implied that guys like Brackens, Blackwoods, and Royces are some kind of rarity in the south, one of the few of the "old nobility" that made it through. But if almost everyone is of FM heritage, it's hardly worth pointing those guys out (except for Blackwoods, I guess, since they still worship the Old Gods).

There's a big difference between someone's genetics and their culture. The Blackwoods and Royces still worship the Old Gods so they are still culturally First Men. The Tully's may be genetically First Men, but from what we've seen they are culturally Andal. So yes, the Royces and the Blackwoods ARE a rarity because they do not worship the Seven. The Lannisters and the Gardeners being genetically mostly First Men does not change the fact that they were, for all intents and purposes, culturally Andalized. That's the difference between FM and Andals - culture, not genes, not race, culture.

Oddly enough,the turnaround already happened within AGoT. In her first chapter Cat was ruminating about the cut weirwoods in the South, how Riverrun godswood was a park rather than a place of worship and that Winterfell weirwood made her uneasy, while in the end we saw Robb praying before a _carved weirwood_ in Riverrun. Also, in AGoT a lot of southern of nobles already have First Men-style names, like Oakheart, Greenfield, Hunter, Redfort, Swyft, Crane, Swann, etc., etc. In this light, the supposed total Andal dominance always seemed a bit weird. So, the stuff in WOIAF isn't coming wholly out of the blue.

Frankly, after WOIAF I am seriously wondering if Hoster's and Brynden's mother wasn't a Blackwood, because Bran was also afraid of WF weirwood before his fall. It would explain the young and slender, but carved weirwood in Riverrun godswood...

She meant that no one in Riverrun used the godswood for praying. She didn't say they didn't have a weirwood, just that the godswood wasn't where anyone prayed.

[TheSovereignGrave]

There's a big difference between someone's genetics and their culture. The Blackwoods and Royces still worship the Old Gods so they are still culturally First Men. The Tully's may be genetically First Men, but from what we've seen they are culturally Andal. So yes, the Royces and the Blackwoods ARE a rarity because they do not worship the Seven. The Lannisters and the Gardeners being genetically mostly First Men does not change the fact that they were, for all intents and purposes, culturally Andalized. That's the difference between FM and Andals - culture, not genes, not race, culture.

Is it ever actually stated that House Royce follows the Old Gods? What I got from it was that they're big on their First Men heritage (what with the ancient bronze plate, runic sigil, and House words), but still followed the Seven. I mean, I can't imagine that House Arryn allowed them to keep their old faith since the early Andals were rather intolerant.

[Lion of the West]

Is it ever actually stated that House Royce follows the Old Gods? What I got from it was that they're big on their First Men heritage (what with the ancient bronze plate, runic sigil, and House words), but still followed the Seven. I mean, I can't imagine that House Arryn allowed them to keep their old faith since the early Andals were rather intolerant.

As far as I know, and given the number if Royce knights, I'd say that the odds are that the Royces worship the Seven and not the Old Gods.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Everyone says the Daynes are first men but with Dornish law they are unlikely to have gone straight down the male line. I consider it the line in general. No matter if you are man or woman you still only pass on 50%, so if the Lannisters are legit in their story, they are first men as the Lannister daughter was the 'heir' of the house. She passed her bloodline to her son the same way a man would.

Hey, Catholic here. I dont consider protestantism an advancement at all. 500 years of religious murders in my country, legal oppression too, advanced enough for you?

Inquisitions and essentially needing like eight different ecunemical councils to decide what to put in the bible, and then many of those faith denying such things ever happened. Add on the mass corruption that entered the church as well.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Is it ever actually stated that House Royce follows the Old Gods? What I got from it was that they're big on their First Men heritage (what with the ancient bronze plate, runic sigil, and House words), but still followed the Seven. I mean, I can't imagine that House Arryn allowed them to keep their old faith since the early Andals were rather intolerant.

Fair enough - I thought they did, but now I'm not sure if it's been stated one way or another. Either way, the Royces seem to have found a balance between the Andalization of the Vale and their heritage as First Men. They still have and wear their ancient armour, and they definitely see themselves as culturally First Men.

As far as I know, and given the number if Royce knights, I'd say that the odds are that the Royces worship the Seven and not the Old Gods.

They could very well worship BOTH. And some Northerners (like Jorah) have sucked it up and done what they needed to do in the Sept/for the Seven in order to "officially" become knights (I'm assuming that the septons like to keep their stranglehold on "knights" so I assume that even after being dubbed for bravery or whatever the prospective knight still has to do his vigil in a Sept - a fair few assumptions, I admit, but once a group [septons] has *some* power over another group [knights] they don't willingly give it up, even in special cases [Jorah - not a 7 worshipper]). But like the current generation of Starks, the Royces and their bannermen may worship both the old gods and the new - with more emphasis on the 7 when dealing with Arryn's and southron lords and emphasizing the old gods when dealing with the North or the clans in the mountains (common ground for "peace" talks). They seem more balanced between the Andals and the First Men, and considering how things *did* go down in the Vale - that's kind of impressive!

[Lion of the West]

Fair enough - I thought they did, but now I'm not sure if it's been stated one way or another. Either way, the Royces seem to have found a balance between the Andalization of the Vale and their heritage as First Men. They still have and wear their ancient armour, and they definitely see themselves as culturally First Men.

They could very well worship BOTH. And some Northerners (like Jorah) have sucked it up and done what they needed to do in the Sept/for the Seven in order to "officially" become knights (I'm assuming that the septons like to keep their stranglehold on "knights" so I assume that even after being dubbed for bravery or whatever the prospective knight still has to do his vigil in a Sept - a fair few assumptions, I admit, but once a group [septons] has *some* power over another group [knights] they don't willingly give it up, even in special cases [Jorah - not a 7 worshipper]). But like the current generation of Starks, the Royces and their bannermen may worship both the old gods and the new - with more emphasis on the 7 when dealing with Arryn's and southron lords and emphasizing the old gods when dealing with the North or the clans in the mountains (common ground for "peace" talks). They seem more balanced between the Andals and the First Men, and considering how things *did* go down in the Vale - that's kind of impressive!

I'm not sure that I will believe it untill I've seen something from the texts. The uniqueness of the Blackwoods in that they follow the Old Gods kind of sounds to me like the Royces are not still part of that crowd, like the Brackens, Redforts, Hightowers etc.

[AzureOwl]

The only thing that really bugged me about the book’s version of the Andal conquest is something that will sound like the most nitpicky thing imaginable: the revelation that the Bar Emmons are Andal in origin.

Of all the names of the noble houses of Westeros, Bar Emmon is the one that sticks out like a sore thumb because it doesn’t fit with any other name in the series. As far as I can remember the only other language that has anything resembling patronymics is Ghiscari, with it zo and mo. As a matter of fact, Bar Emmon is the only family name with more than one word in all of Westeros.

It just bugs me.