Queen Rhaenyra

Errors in the WOIAF

174 posts in this topic

44 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Cool, thank you!

Towards the end of The Stormlands: House Baratheon

It has been amended from 282 AC to 283 AC.

Not sure if we ever listed that as errors but the sidebar on Baelor's sisters still implies that Aegon IV was not yet king when he allegedly fathered Viserys Plumm in 176 AC. The sentence talks about the rumor that Elaena's cousin Aegon - 'he who would later become King Aegon the Unworthy' - was the father of the boy. Now, Aegon might not yet have been known as the Unworthy in 176 AC but he clearly was already king.

So that sentence should better talk about Elaena's 'cousin King Aegon' and, perhaps 'he who is known to history as Aegon the Unworthy' or 'he who was later known as Aegon the Unworthy'.

That is something that should be changed (if they are still introducing changes) since it really misleads the casual reader about the time line of events.

We also have Addam and Alyn of Hull always referred to as the grandsons of the Sea Snake (outside the sidebar detailing Mushroom's rumors about their parentage, of course).

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36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It has been amended from 282 AC to 283 AC.

Thank you!

@SFDanny, I guess you would be interested to know this, too, since we discussed this not too long ago.

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Thank you!

@SFDanny, I guess you would be interested to know this, too, since we discussed this not too long ago.

Thank you, RT! It's ridiculous how good that simple change makes me feel! Far too long until the next book.

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We also have Laenor Velaryon being constantly referred to either with no title or a simple 'Ser'. Prince Laenor is gone.

I found a 'certainly' typo somewhere in the Westerlands where it should read 'certainty'.

Historically the name 'Shield Islands' / 'Shields' should not be used for those islands in the sections on the Reach while they are not yet named this way.

I have yet to take a look at the Dornish section but this should also go for Sunspear while it is still the Sandship. In the first edition only the section on the Rhoynar had the Sandship while the Dorne section unanimously talked about Sunspear.

And I think somebody really should resolve the Qhored Hoare - Bernarr II Justman conundrum if there are some major changes. That could work best if Qhored the super Ironborn king might just have been a Qhored Hoare '(or a Greyiron, or of some other house) but the Qhored Hoare who ended House Justman was a historical king from House Hoare after the black blood took over the islands.

The Justmans did not rule the Riverlands before the Andals came.

But Harwyn Hardhand lands at the right place now, both in the Riverlands and the Iron Islands section.

I'm still very skeptical about the plausibility of his background. The man must have been born before the Doom of Valyria, and there wouldn't have been any Disputed Lands or trade wars among the Free Cities in those days, let alone a lot of opportunity for pirates and corsairs to trouble the waters controlled by the Freehold.

And even if Valyria was already gone in the days of the man's adventures far away from home it would have been the Century of Blood with a lot of real naval wars going on in southwest Essos.

Thanks to the changes to George's original History of the Westerlands in regards to the time in which the Andals there is also a contradiction to be observed in regards to the kings named Tyrion. Tyrion II the Tormentor is specifically called a later king yet Tyrion III seems to be ruling before Tyrion II, being one of the kings who oppose the Andals.

Unless we assume that this is the sole instance in the section where text is not moving forward chronologically this this is a contradiction.

Even the wiki lists Tyrion III among the First Men Lannister kings and Tyrion II amongst the Lydden line.

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@Lord Varys Ran has said somewhere (that I don't have linked on my tablet, but do on my currently charger-less laptop), perhaps in the Inconsistencies thread, that basically Reach-attacking Qhored (i.e. "the Cruel") is a different one to the Justman-extinguishing Qhored, with the former as a driftwood king & the latter a hereditary king. Indeed, that there were multiple Qhored Hoares during both periods.

On Hardhand's background, remember that:

  • Slavers & pirates from the Stepstones were attacking the North, Riverlands, & Vale (perhaps also the Stormlands &/or Dorne) at least during the Worthless War.
  • The Basilisk Isles have been ruled by corsair kings at least as far back as c.700BC when Nymeria & her Rhoynar were there. Indeed, the Freehold abandoned their last Sothoryos outpost (Zamettar) c.1700BC & perhaps also the Isles themselves then too. After all, they wouldn't need them for Zamettar anymore & they had other places like their own mines to send their criminals.
  • The paragraphs before Harwyn is brought up in "The Black Brood", suggests that since at least the Famine Winter (geez I want a dating on this! c.500BC?) that the Ironborn engaged in the New Way with the Free Cities, the Old Way in the Basilisk Isles & Stepstones, & a Quellon-esque combination of the two as sellsails for them there.
  • The Freehold, particularly the dragonlords themselves, have actually been quite insular for much of their history; only involving themselves when needed, instead preferring the comforts of & power in Valyria. The trade wars & reavers would've very, very rarely (at best) have actually threatened one of their Daughters - let alone any of the others closer to & directly controlled by Valyria - & if they did, then the attackers would get the Second Spice War or Scouring of Lorath treatment. And even then, Rhoynar then or during earlier wars migrated to & assimilated with the Valyrian colonists of Myr & (some of) the remaining Essosi Andals likewise with Pentos. Really, I think for the most part, the Freehold would've benefitted from all of these various conflicts - particularly with the slave trade.

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2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

@Lord Varys Ran has said somewhere (that I don't have linked on my tablet, but do on my currently charger-less laptop), perhaps in the Inconsistencies thread, that basically Reach-attacking Qhored (i.e. "the Cruel") is a different one to the Justman-extinguishing Qhored, with the former as a driftwood king & the latter a hereditary king. Indeed, that there were multiple Qhored Hoares during both periods.

Sure, that makes sense. However, this should actually be reflected by the text in some fashion. At least some time in the future. The Iron Islands section clearly places the end of the House Justman very far back in time.

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

On Hardhand's background, remember that:

  • Slavers & pirates from the Stepstones were attacking the North, Riverlands, & Vale (perhaps also the Stormlands &/or Dorne) at least during the Worthless War.

Sure, but that might have been before the Tyroshi and the Lyseni and the Myrmen were as powerful as they later were (assuming their colonies were already more than trading outposts at that time). Or it is possible that they were those slavers and pirates. There is also talk about the Volantenes and Valyrians sending slavers to Westeros.

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:
  • The Basilisk Isles have been ruled by corsair kings at least as far back as c.700BC when Nymeria & her Rhoynar were there. Indeed, the Freehold abandoned their last Sothoryos outpost (Zamettar) c.1700BC & perhaps also the Isles themselves then too. After all, they wouldn't need them for Zamettar anymore & they had other places like their own mines to send their criminals.

That is another problem because the Basilisk Isles and Sothoryos itself is so close to the Lands of the Long Summer. We know Gogossos on the Isle of Tears was apparently always a Valyrian colony since it was taken from the Ghiscari in the Third Ghiscari War. There is little room for independent corsairs and the like in the centuries before the Doom when Valyria's power was at it's utmost height. For the dragonlords such corsairs would have been both a nuisance and a very good source for slaves.

Perhaps we could go with them working for the Valyrians to provide them with slaves they captured on Sothoryos. That could explain why they were willing to allow the Rhoynar to settle if they provided them with fresh slaves on a regular basis.

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:
  • The paragraphs before Harwyn is brought up in "The Black Brood", suggests that since at least the Famine Winter (geez I want a dating on this! c.500BC?) that the Ironborn engaged in the New Way with the Free Cities, the Old Way in the Basilisk Isles & Stepstones, & a Quellon-esque combination of the two as sellsails for them there.

Yeah, that is sort of a problem, too, because it implies that Valyria was essentially gone. This was the time when Valyria was establishing its outposts on Dragonstone and Driftmark. The idea that the Stepstones were pirate nests in those days simply make no sense. 

2 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:
  • The Freehold, particularly the dragonlords themselves, have actually been quite insular for much of their history; only involving themselves when needed, instead preferring the comforts of & power in Valyria. The trade wars & reavers would've very, very rarely (at best) have actually threatened one of their Daughters - let alone any of the others closer to & directly controlled by Valyria - & if they did, then the attackers would get the Second Spice War or Scouring of Lorath treatment. And even then, Rhoynar then or during earlier wars migrated to & assimilated with the Valyrian colonists of Myr & (some of) the remaining Essosi Andals likewise with Pentos. Really, I think for the most part, the Freehold would've benefitted from all of these various conflicts - particularly with the slave trade.

Still, pirates pray on valuable stuff. Now, what do you expect a dragonlord to do when a tribute ship from Qarth, Great Moraq, or wherever is taken by some corsair from the Basilisk Isles. Surely you don't just write that off. If pirates can haunt the waters this close to home then Valyria has no power at all. It would be as if the US government would suffer pirates on the Florida Keys or Cuba in our days or the British allowing themselves to be troubled by the Channel Islanders.

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Has it been pointed out that in the timeline of Targaryen reigns near the end, it gets Baelor I and Daeron I the wrong way round?

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@Rhaenys_Targaryen and @Lord Varys, do we know when Nymeria's War occurred? 

AFFC The Princess in the Tower mentions "a thousand years". This would place Nymeria as living around 700 BC. GRRM often uses "a thousand years" as "a long time ago", however, instead of a more definitive "one thousand years". 

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Lord Fowler might be a safer choice. The Old Hawk, he was called. He had never gotten on with Anders Yronwood; there was bad blood between their Houses going back a thousand years, from when the Fowlers had chosen Martell over Yronwood during Nymeria's War.

TWOIAF: Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships also mentions "a thousand years ago".

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This series of conflicts reached a bloody climax a thousand years ago in the Second Spice War, when three Valyrian dragonlords joined with their kin and cousins in Volantis to overwhelm, sack, and destroy Sarhoy, the great Rhoynar port city upon the Summer Sea. 

TWOIAF Dorne: The Coming of the Rhoynar, however, mentions "seven hundred years", placing Nymeria around 400 BC. 

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House Martell has guided Dorne for seven hundred years, raising its great towers at Sunspear, seeing the shadow city and the Planky Town rise, and defeating all those who threatened its dominion.

 

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1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen and @Lord Varys, do we know when Nymeria's War occurred? 

That is a mess. I just checked the later editions of TWoIaF I bought a couple of months back, and those issues haven't been resolved.

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

AFFC The Princess in the Tower mentions "a thousand years". This would place Nymeria as living around 700 BC. GRRM often uses "a thousand years" as "a long time ago", however, instead of a more definitive "one thousand years".

Considering the way he uses the phrase in later Arianne chapters (when referring to the Children of the Forest in the Stormlands or the kings of House Mudd) it is quite clear that he is not giving an exact date there.

My suggestion to resolve this would be to go with the destruction of the Rhoynar happening about a thousand years ago, give or take, and to amend the 700 years thing as to '700 years before the Conquest'.

The dates for the arrival of the Rhoynar should be pretty solid. We had the literate culture of the Andals firmly established by then, and there would be proper source material not only in Dorne itself but also in the various other kingdoms watching and interacting with Dorne.

We also learn that the Martells only ruled their modest holdings in Dorne for centuries (not thousands of years) prior to the coming of Nymeria. That would allow us to sort of firmly fix the coming of the Andals at about 2,000 BC (or about 2,000 years before the series). The exodus of the Andals itself could have been a process stretching over centuries - say, 500 years or so - before anyone but the Iron Islands were andalized. That way the first Andals could have shown up at Westerosi coasts with the intention to stay somewhere in the earlier half of the 3rd millennium BC.

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4 hours ago, Nittanian said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen and @Lord Varys, do we know when Nymeria's War occurred? 

AFFC The Princess in the Tower mentions "a thousand years". This would place Nymeria as living around 700 BC. GRRM often uses "a thousand years" as "a long time ago", however, instead of a more definitive "one thousand years". 

TWOIAF: Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships also mentions "a thousand years ago".

TWOIAF Dorne: The Coming of the Rhoynar, however, mentions "seven hundred years", placing Nymeria around 400 BC. 

 

Since the latter quote ends the chapter before the arrival of the Targaryens, a way to read it is that it means "seven hundred years" before the Targaryen's arrived, after which there were three more centuries of Martell leadership in "Dorne against the Dragons"

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@Ran, a few questions/clarifications if you have time. 

Was Nymeria's arrival "a thousand years" (meaning one thousand) or "seven hundred years" ago?

What is the Great Fork of the Blackwater? Possibilities to me include the main branch (Stoney Sept to King's Landing), the tributary from the Gods Eye, the confluence of a few rivers southeast of Stoney Sept, or the confluence of the main branch with the Gods Eye tributary west of KL. 

I'm confused by this excerpt from The Black Blood:

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It would be centuries before the Iron Islands recovered, a long slow climb back up to prosperity and power. Of the kings who reigned during this bleak age, we need not treat. Many were puppets of the lords or priests. A few were more like the reavers of the Age of Heroes, men such as Harrag Hoare and his son Ravos the Raper who savaged the North in the years of the Hungry Wolf's bloody reign, but they were rare and far between. (TWOIAF The Iron Islands: The Black Blood)

This is in the Hoare section, so the assumption would be that Harrag and Ravos were from the iron era instead of the driftwood era. This interpretation would have the Hoares (who succeeded the Greyirons with Andal help) ruling the Iron Islands when Theon Stark repelled Argos Sevenstar from the eastern shores of the north. This suggests that Argos attacked the north after Andals gained controlled of the Vale, the riverlands, the Iron Islands, and probably the westerlands.

The following excerpts indicate that Harrag Hoare and Loron Greyjoy were driftwood kings, however, pushing Theon the Hungry Wolf back in time to before the Greyirons began the hereditary era. This would more easily reconcile with the Andals taking "a thousand years" and consolidating mainland conquests before allying with the Hoares and other local ironborn against the Greyirons.

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The west coast of the North has also oft been beset by reavers, and several of the Hungry Wolf's wars were forced upon him when longships out of Great Wyk, Old Wyk, Pyke, and Orkmont descended upon his western coasts beneath the banners of Harrag Hoare, King of the Iron Islands. For a time the Stony Shore did fealty to Harrag and his ironmen, swathes of the wolfswood were nothing but ashes, and Bear Island was a base for reaving, ruled by Harrag's black-hearted son, Ravos the Raper. Though Theon Stark slew Ravos with his own hand, and expelled the ironmen from his shores, they would return under Harrag's grandson, Erich the Eagle, and again under the Old Kraken, Loron Greyjoy, who retook both Bear Island and Cape Kraken (King Rodrik Stark reclaimed the first of those after the Old Kraken's death, whilst his sons and grandsons battled for the latter). The wars between the North and the ironborn would continue thereafter, but less decisively. (TWOIAF The North)

 

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". . . too long a time!" Aeron cried in anguish. "Yet in the dawn of days the ironborn chose their own kings, raising up the worthiest amongst them. It is time we returned to the Old Way, for only that shall make us great again. It was a kingsmoot that chose Urras Ironfoot for High King, and placed a driftwood crown upon his brows. Sylas Flatnose, Harrag Hoare, the Old Kraken, the kingsmoot raised them all. (AFFC The Prophet)

 

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Even the ironborn—the fierce, sea-roving warriors who must have at first thought themselves safe upon their isles—fell to the wave of Andal conquest. For though it took a thousand years for the Andals to turn their attention to the Iron Islands, when they did, they did so with renewed zeal. The Andals swept over the islands, extinguishing the line of Urron Redhand, which had ruled by axe and sword for a thousand years. (TWOIAF Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals)

A reconciliation is that Harrag and Ravos are listed in The Black Blood as examples of driftwood reavers from the Age of Heroes, and "a few more" unspecified Hoare iron kings were like these ancient ancestors.. 

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17 hours ago, Nittanian said:

@Ran, a few questions/clarifications if you have time. 

Was Nymeria's arrival "a thousand years" (meaning one thousand) or "seven hundred years" ago?

What is the Great Fork of the Blackwater? Possibilities to me include the main branch (Stoney Sept to King's Landing), the tributary from the Gods Eye, the confluence of a few rivers southeast of Stoney Sept, or the confluence of the main branch with the Gods Eye tributary west of KL. 

I'm confused by this excerpt from The Black Blood:

This is in the Hoare section, so the assumption would be that Harrag and Ravos were from the iron era instead of the driftwood era. This interpretation would have the Hoares (who succeeded the Greyirons with Andal help) ruling the Iron Islands when Theon Stark repelled Argos Sevenstar from the eastern shores of the north. This suggests that Argos attacked the north after Andals gained controlled of the Vale, the riverlands, the Iron Islands, and probably the westerlands.

The following excerpts indicate that Harrag Hoare and Loron Greyjoy were driftwood kings, however, pushing Theon the Hungry Wolf back in time to before the Greyirons began the hereditary era. This would more easily reconcile with the Andals taking "a thousand years" and consolidating mainland conquests before allying with the Hoares and other local ironborn against the Greyirons.

 

 

A reconciliation is that Harrag and Ravos are listed in The Black Blood as examples of driftwood reavers from the Age of Heroes, and "a few more" unspecified Hoare iron kings were like these ancient ancestors.. 

I believe that this was alluded to by the authors as an error, previously. But I could be misremembering. It seems clear to me that Harrag has to have lived in Theon Stark's time, which was during the War Across the Water with the Vale. Considering that Theon had to first build a fleet for himself, it implies that he did not have a fleet before, which would suggest that the Starks could not have been waging a war for the Three Sisters before that time. This implies that Theon may have been the Stark to commence the War Across the Water, which also ties Theon to the Rape of the Three Sisters. And this was dated to a thousand years before White Harbor was founded by the Manderlys.

It also ties in with the Andal invasion still being in full swing, which aligns with Argos Sevenstar being the most powerful Andal warlord to ever invade the North.

The weight of evidence places Harrag and Ravos in the earlier period, rather than in the post Andal era of the Iron Isles.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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On 11/30/2017 at 7:09 PM, Nittanian said:

What is the Great Fork of the Blackwater? Possibilities to me include the main branch (Stoney Sept to King's Landing), the tributary from the Gods Eye, the confluence of a few rivers southeast of Stoney Sept, or the confluence of the main branch with the Gods Eye tributary west of KL. 

Ran was recently asked this in a different tread this was his answer.

The Great Fork is something we asked George about, but as we’ve noted the Sons of the Dragon is one of the texts where GRRM did not send his own revisions and responses to queries. So the answer is, we don’t know.

 

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Two centuries passed—centuries in which the coveted Valyrian steel began to trickle into the Seven Kingdoms more swiftly than before—though not swiftly enough for all the lords and kings who desired it. And although the sight of a dragonlord flying high above Blackwater Bay was not unknown, it occurred more frequently as time passed. Valyria felt its outpost was secured, and the dragonlords thus continued their schemes and intrigues on their native continent. - The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Doom of Valyria

Which is it, did Valyrian dragonlord sightings above Blackwater Bay become more frequent as time passed....or did the dragonlords feel that their outpost was secure and returned to Essos to scheme? Seems to be a contradiction.  Change "more" to "less" in the first sentence and the second sentence makes more sense.

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