[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I had a bit more, but the computer ate my response. So, here's the Cliff Notes version:

In response to those who say Sansa's Season 5 storyline was necessary for her empowerment, how was she empowered? The last episode had Sansa try to get someone to save her, accept death is better than current situation, and finally get saved by someone else. How is any of that empowerment? That's she's actively trying to get people to save her?

In response to bad shit happening to other characters, so? This is a Sansa Thread. I, and I suspect others, are pretty pissed about the other changes (it was Shireen's burning that brought me back). But this is a Sansa Thread. Talking about the shitty thing done to X doesn't mean there can be no empathy for Y.

In response to Sansa being free from LF, how? Seriously, being on the run without supplies and having armies looking for you is not freedom. It's being on the run.

[Masha]

I agree completely. To go from Sansa having considerably more control and influence over her surroundings than she does in the books to this nonsense is unforgivable.

It's why I've found all these arguments about "Did GOT go too far" and trying to justify it with historical context on clickbait websites so ludicrous. Many reviews leading up to ep 6 lauded the decision, then about faced when confronted with the reality of it. It's a bizarrely minocular focus on each episode at a time rather than observing the broader path of the character.

She shouldn't have been there in the first place. At the start of the season she trusts LF implicitly even though that trust was founded on a "better the devil you know" basis at the end of Season 4. It's just so dumb for her to behavior like this and through her natural advantage in the Vale away for nothing.

Technically speaking, if they put more effort to it and actually differentiated from the books they could have made it work. They actually stayed faithful to the book in the sense that they took the whole Jeyne storyline and just copy/pasted Sansa in it, and they forgot that Jeyne was a very minor character she didn't do anything except get raped/abused by Ramsey, locked in their bedroom, escapes with Theon by jumping off the WF walls. What they should have realized that if they put a major character like Sansa there, they could have done a lot more with her just by adding 3-4 more characters to WF - Manderly, couple of Freys, perhaps Lady Dustin or other Northern Lord/Lady. IF those characters were there, Sansa could have manipulated them, and instead of being destroyed by Ramsey could have manipulated him or his girlfriend into killing of Roose/Fat Walda, and so much more.

[TheCasualObserver]

I had a bit more, but the computer ate my response. So, here's the Cliff Notes version:

In response to those who say Sansa's Season 5 storyline was necessary for her empowerment, how was she empowered? The last episode had Sansa try to get someone to save her, accept death is better than current situation, and finally get saved by someone else. How is any of that empowerment? That's she's actively trying to get people to save her?

In response to bad shit happening to other characters, so? This is a Sansa Thread. I, and I suspect others, are pretty pissed about the other changes (it was Shireen's burning that brought me back). But this is a Sansa Thread. Talking about the shitty thing done to X doesn't mean there can be no empathy for Y.

In response to Sansa being free from LF, how? Seriously, being on the run without supplies and having armies looking for you is not freedom. It's being on the run.

"You've been running your whole life"

Yeah? Well she still is.

[Mosop]

I dont know why Sansa was worried about Myranda shooting her,no one had shown Myranda how to use a bow the arrow was on wrong side of the bow.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Too far...this would mean that no beloved character could ever be tortured, killed, raped or seriously mistreated in the show before we have a similiar action black on white in Martin's books. The show has to shuffle events around, like Shireen getting burned or Barristan dead. And Myrcella! All three very much beloved characters. The show does not have ten series unfortunately, they have to condense things and to change the book order of events.

We may not agree with details or the timing now but indeed we will only know when the books are finished and released.

If there was written support for it, I would not argue it. They brought her to Winterfell and had this at minimum happen to her. no Northern lords. Out of all of the good stuff, ADWD had in Winterfell, they kept the rape of Sansa/Jeyne. That is it. They diverted Sansa and made sure that happened. No need. If the Vale is coming and they are, rest assured, they are coming, she could have been safer there and come with the Army.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Too far...this would mean that no beloved character could ever be tortured, killed, raped or seriously mistreated in the show before we have a similiar action black on white in Martin's books. The show has to shuffle events around, like Shireen getting burned or Barristan dead. And Myrcella! All three very much beloved characters. The show does not have ten series unfortunately, they have to condense things and to change the book order of events.

We may not agree with details or the timing now but indeed we will only know when the books are finished and released.

I did not know Myrcella was beloved. That is new to me

[Orphalesion]

Sansa was not empowered this season, she was de-powered. Classical bad writing; some writers (and I'm talking about DnD not Martinn) when they don't know hat to do with a female character, just have her get raped because for them rape="instant drama" Nevermind the longterm psychological effects rape has in many cases.

I am pissed. Absolutely PISSED abut what they did to Sansa this year. Turning her once more into a pawn, a victim. I liked the way she defied Myranda, but too little too late.

Jaime, Sansa, which of my favourite characters is the showgoing to butcher next?

[Newstar]

I do want to gloat that I was right about Sansa's ambiguous ending being her jumping off the walls of Winterfell with Theon. I was wrong about a lot of stuff, admittedly, but that, I nailed.

I'm kind of curious as to where Sansa heads next year. Book Jeyne wound up in Stannis' camp and looks like she'll be shipped off to Braavos. TV Sansa on the other hand has Brienne and Pod in the vicinity, as well as Littlefinger hopefully showing up at some point with his army. Will she stick around in the North? Will she set off to find her brothers? Will she stick with Theon, or ditch him? Will she head to the Wall? Will she have some sort of final reckoning with Littlefinger? Will she head back to the Vale? Will she head off to Braavos and meet up with Arya, as some are speculating Book Jeyne will?

Usually, the characters' last scene for the season sets up the next season in some fashion, but there's no hint of what Sansa and Theon will be up to next season, apart from what little published material there is left for Book Theon, Book Jeyne and Book Sansa.

I suppose all of those questions presuppose that both Theon and Sansa survived the jump. In the books, I think Theon jumped with Jeyne in his arms and landed on top of her, breaking some of her ribs. TV Theon and Sansa jumped holding hands. I'm not surprised the show didn't confirm or deny their deaths this episode, as there were plenty of deaths already. However, the show might come back in Season 6 with Theon and/or Sansa having died in the fall. Frankly, given the height of the jump in the show, it wouldn't beggar imagination in the slightest for both of them to have died in the fall.

[shaggy_rick]

Here's the real reasons why this happened.

1. Cost.

Since Hardhome quite clearly swallowed a huge amount of the budget this year, the showrunners were looking for places that could be cut. Arya is a fan favorite, her chapters have lots of violence, take place in relatively few locations and with a limited number of characters. So she was safe. bran's plot is mostly mystical and crosses over in too much TWOW territory, so he is cut. Sansa's OTL plot would require the Vale as a viable location, multiple castings for several prominent Vale figures, and props and sets galore. Removing her was a no brainer.

2.Theon and narrative economy.

Theon needs a female character to be imperiled so he can redeem himself. Sansa handily fits the bill, and having cut her Vale plot, is now looking for something to do. Additionally, this places the locus for Stannis, Brienne, the Boltons, Theon and Sansa at Winterfell; five characters dealt with in a single location.

3. Sophie Turner.

Unlike Isaac Hempstead-Wright, Sophie is quickly becoming a fully fledged film star. Since the Vale story was simply one location too many, they needed something for her to do - what better than a shocking a dramatic rape scene? Lots of exposure for one of the casts' rising stars and a chance to once again show case her misery face.

4.Constraints upon LF.

A possibly unintended side effect of Sansa's arc in season 4 was that she effectively held LF dead to rights. One word from Sansa to the Vale lords about Lysa's death and LF is missing his head. No more manipulations, no more social climbing. At best he runs back to Cersei, at worst he is eaten by the crows. Since book LF has plenty more scheming to do, his show counterpart must also have freedom to manipulate. Therefore Sansa cannot be kept in the Vale in order for the plot (as the showrunners have written it) to continue unimpeded.

5. Shock factor.

GOT is the show where horrible things happen to good people. It is the general populace's understanding of the series, and what it has become famous for. The rape of a main character is shocking, therefore that should be something that happens.

I think you are absolutely right about tv economics behind D&D's decisions. But this way they killed consistent storytelling and reduced the show to the shock factor. This Season 5 finale has killed all my enthusiasm about the show. That was completely different for the past seasons. After Season 3 and Season 4 I couldn't wait for the next season to start. Now I don't care anymore. Im fine with it being over. I'll probably don't come back for season 6.

I don't expect D&D doing a better job for season 6, without book material to guide them. They are able to write single scenes, but they fail at the long term arcs, character development and plot consistency.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I do want to gloat that I was right about Sansa's ambiguous ending being her jumping off the walls of Winterfell with Theon. I was wrong about a lot of stuff, admittedly, but that, I nailed.

I'm kind of curious as to where Sansa heads next year. Book Jeyne wound up in Stannis' camp and looks like she'll be shipped off to Braavos. TV Sansa on the other hand has Brienne and Pod in the vicinity, as well as Littlefinger hopefully showing up at some point with his army. Will she stick around in the North? Will she set off to find her brothers? Will she stick with Theon, or ditch him? Will she head to the Wall? Will she have some sort of final reckoning with Littlefinger? Will she head back to the Vale? Will she head off to Braavos and meet up with Arya, as some are speculating Book Jeyne will?

Usually, the characters' last scene for the season sets up the next season in some fashion, but there's no hint of what Sansa and Theon will be up to next season, apart from what little published material there is left for Book Theon, Book Jeyne and Book Sansa.

I suppose all of those questions presuppose that both Theon and Sansa survived the jump. In the books, I think Theon jumped with Jeyne in his arms and landed on top of her, breaking some of her ribs. TV Theon and Sansa jumped holding hands. I'm not surprised the show didn't confirm or deny their deaths this episode, as there were plenty of deaths already. However, the show might come back in Season 6 with Theon and/or Sansa having died in the fall. Frankly, given the height of the jump in the show, it wouldn't beggar imagination in the slightest for both of them to have died in the fall.

I think them dying in the fall is anti-climatic and not happening. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised for some to champion that for the shocking plot devices alone, but It's not what GOT would do. That said, I'm mostly believing Sansa's journey is going to be retconned with her book!character, as she learns Jon "dies" (Apparently, Kit confirmed he's not coming back) and she returns somehow to LF's tutelage. Characters often go in filler journeys, so I wouldn't be surprised about that one.

[Newstar]

I think them dying in the fall is anti-climatic and not happening. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised for some to champion that for the shocking plot devices alone, but It's not what GOT would do. That said, I'm mostly believing Sansa's journey is going to be retconned with her book!character, as she learns Jon "dies" (Apparently, Kit confirmed he's not coming back) and she returns somehow to LF's tutelage. Characters often go in filler journeys, so I wouldn't be surprised about that one.

Some of the potential 5x10 endgames batted around for Sansa--Lady of Winterfell once LF's army ousts the Boltons, quest for Rickon with Brienne and Pod in tow, going to the Wall to meet up with Jon Snow, etc.--could still happen. It's hard to see her heading far away from Winterfell if Littlefinger is going to show up with his army, firstly because someone has to occupy Winterfell once Littlefinger gets rid of the Boltons, and secondly because Sansa and Littlefinger have a good deal of unfinished business.

As for Sansa returning to LF's tutelage, I think that the audience will lose whatever respect they have for Sansa if she just gratefully falls into LF's arms and uncritically accepts his claims that he knew nothing of Ramsay's nature (unless said forgiveness is all an act). I could see her using him to clean out the Boltons and then offing him herself, but maybe that's asking too much of TV Sansa, since D&D don't seem to have a very high opinion of her abilities.

Honestly, Season 5 left me with a gloomy impression of Sansa's endgame. I get how the Stannis fans feel, LOL.

[Wouter]

Usually, the characters' last scene for the season sets up the next season in some fashion, but there's no hint of what Sansa and Theon will be up to next season, apart from what little published material there is left for Book Theon, Book Jeyne and Book Sansa.

I suppose all of those questions presuppose that both Theon and Sansa survived the jump. In the books, I think Theon jumped with Jeyne in his arms and landed on top of her, breaking some of her ribs. TV Theon and Sansa jumped holding hands. I'm not surprised the show didn't confirm or deny their deaths this episode, as there were plenty of deaths already. However, the show might come back in Season 6 with Theon and/or Sansa having died in the fall. Frankly, given the height of the jump in the show, it wouldn't beggar imagination in the slightest for both of them to have died in the fall.

Jeyne and Theon both survived an identical fall in the books. Also in the books, both Theon and Sansa are alive and look to have further storylines to go through (Theon I think won't be sacrificed; I see the old gods stopping the execution and him ending up invalidating Euron's Kingsmoot).

So, Occam's Razor would suggest both are also going to survive in the show. I guess Brienne and Pod will pick them up, and help to evade or kill the hounds that Ramsay is gonna use. LF's Vale army may also be near, but given the trials of Cersei and MArgaery (and Loras) are yet to come, he may still be involved in KL in early S6.

Brienne could bring Sansa back to the south (and her book storyline) if the Vale army isn't already well on its way to Winterfell.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Some of the potential 5x10 endgames batted around for Sansa--Lady of Winterfell once LF's army ousts the Boltons, quest for Rickon with Brienne and Pod in tow, going to the Wall to meet up with Jon Snow, etc.--could still happen. It's hard to see her heading far away from Winterfell if Littlefinger is going to show up with his army, firstly because someone has to occupy Winterfell once Littlefinger gets rid of the Boltons, and secondly because Sansa and Littlefinger have a good deal of unfinished business.

As for Sansa returning to LF's tutelage, I think that the audience will lose whatever respect they have for Sansa if she just gratefully falls into LF's arms and uncritically accepts his claims that he knew nothing of Ramsay's nature (unless said forgiveness is all an act). I could see her using him to clean out the Boltons and then offing him herself, but maybe that's asking too much of TV Sansa, since D&D don't seem to have a very high opinion of her abilities.

Honestly, Season 5 left me with a gloomy impression of Sansa's endgame. I get how the Stannis fans feel, LOL.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I wish we were spared of further butchering with Fansa dying at the jump - But this one I'm fairly confident she'll make it. I don't think her ending is a tragic one - If anything, I think this season, in their obviously deranged minds, was a trial for the character, and I can't see them putting her on a journey down.

That said, I mostly agree with you that Show!Sansa will return to his tutelage as an act, to then get rid off him, slaying the giant. I think Sansa's destiny lies in Winterfell too, and she's not going anywhere.

[nationalanthem91]

I was really hoping Sansa would finally become a badass and instead of running away like she always has, it would have been so much more satisfying to see her overcome her hardships and manipulate the shit out of the Boltons. I mean, I guess that could still happen some time in season 6, but as for season 5, I really don't see how she is any different from past seasons. What was the damn point of making her into "Dark Sansa" in season 4 if she was just going to be Ramsay's sex toy in season 5? Like, what was the point of ALL of that? To build her up, only to tear her down?

I have heard that Sansa being in Winterfell was actually supposed on emphasis on Theon and Ramsay's arcs, but it still doesn't make sense as to why they used HER, especially after everything she had been through with King's Landing and Joff. Why did D&D plan the Sansa/Ramsay arc since season 2, only to have it ultimately come to her just escaping? That's so repetitive. Why not take the arc in a different direction and have her break up the Boltons from inside her home? She shouldn't have left. Now, in a way, Ramsay has won, because he knows that she's terrified of him (with good reason, obviously).

I assume the Sansa/Ramsay/Roose arc isn't completed and will continue into season 6 in one way or another. Either one of three things will happen: 1, Sansa and Theon survive the jump and escape Winterfell, going who knows where. 2, Sansa and Theon survive the jump, but are seriously injured and aren't able to outrun/avoid Bolton men and get re-captured by Ramsay. 3, Sansa and Theon are dead, though this one is hard to believe. D&D have been vocal about how much they love Sansa. Would they really kill her off after killing off Jon?

Bottom line, I don't think this is the last time Sansa/Theon will run into Ramsay. For whatever reason, we all know of D&D's apparent hard-on for Ramsay, so I'm speculating he'll be around for season 6. If he does eventually die, the only people I feel like are legitimately justified in killing him are Sansa and/or Theon. I guesswe shall see what happens in 10 months or so.

[rosehustle1]

Because it doesn't make sense in-context for her to have been there in the first place. You cannot just throw out "oh it's thematically ironic" and say that that alone justifies it. And even then, Theon had to save her, so ultimate this was about HIS development, which makes it all the worse.

And if she wasn't "ready to take matters into her own hands" or "stop waiting for someone else to come and save her" after ALL the other bad crap that she's endured over 4+ seasons, then sorry I'm not buying that she will this time either. The show hasn't earned my trust on that. What's makes this time any different? Why is this when she suddenly "gets it?" Because a penis was involved this time, nope not buying it.

I totally agree. This episode proved that they never had any payoff for Sansa's storyline. It was just more of the same with the added rape. Pretty despicable. Are there going to be women writers this year? They need women in that writers room especially after this fiasco.

[RSasoiaf]

Technically speaking, if they put more effort to it and actually differentiated from the books they could have made it work. They actually stayed faithful to the book in the sense that they took the whole Jeyne storyline and just copy/pasted Sansa in it, and they forgot that Jeyne was a very minor character she didn't do anything except get raped/abused by Ramsey, locked in their bedroom, escapes with Theon by jumping off the WF walls. What they should have realized that if they put a major character like Sansa there, they could have done a lot more with her just by adding 3-4 more characters to WF - Manderly, couple of Freys, perhaps Lady Dustin or other Northern Lord/Lady. IF those characters were there, Sansa could have manipulated them, and instead of being destroyed by Ramsey could have manipulated him or his girlfriend into killing of Roose/Fat Walda, and so much more.

This is very well said!!!

And you know what? They did not even need more characters. They had enough to use. They had Fat Walda, Roose Bolton, Myranda, Ramsay and Theon.

They just decided not to do anything with it.

It was so easy as to follow on the bastard lead and have all hell brake loose between Roose and Ramsay with the women taking their corresponding sides.

You could do something great and have Sansa be responsible for one of them being dead....or if they want the Bolton´s to stay, one of the lady´s could have been dead like Myranda, just as consequence from Sansa´s plotting.

Let us say....Roose would kill Myranda and let Sansa go, because he would be on his way to support is new son and he wants to kick Ramsay back into his place.

It could also make sense that Roose would have Sansa on very good terms with him....for the northern support issue in case it should play any future role.

[Colonel Green]

I have heard that Sansa being in Winterfell was actually supposed on emphasis on Theon and Ramsay's arcs, but it still doesn't make sense as to why they used HER, especially after everything she had been through with King's Landing and Joff.

There really isn't any character with much of an arc in this story (which, really, is a criticism in and of itself). Ramsay is just the villain, albeit one the writers are clearly enamoured with; Theon doesn't have a single meaningful scene of his own all season (which is to say, without any of the other key players), and he's clearly the supporting player in his interactions with Sansa, even though he's "supporting" her in not doing anything and ultimately is the one who kills Myranda and initiates the jump. It's an ungainly hybrid narrative that doesn't particularly serve either of them.

Some of the potential 5x10 endgames batted around for Sansa--Lady of Winterfell once LF's army ousts the Boltons, quest for Rickon with Brienne and Pod in tow, going to the Wall to meet up with Jon Snow, etc.--could still happen. It's hard to see her heading far away from Winterfell if Littlefinger is going to show up with his army, firstly because someone has to occupy Winterfell once Littlefinger gets rid of the Boltons, and secondly because Sansa and Littlefinger have a good deal of unfinished business.

Going with D&D's general logic of plot/character consolidation:

1. Next season opens with her and Theon fleeing through the woods or whatever (incidentally, given Mel's return to the Wall later in episode 510, it seems like there's going to be a bit of a chronological disruption next season when we return to Sansa and Theon), they run into Brienne and Pod, and head for the Wall.

2. Oops, Jon's dead! But Davos is there, and while what happens with Mel, Jon, etc. is anybody's guess at this point, I suspect Davos ends up joining the team, seeing as what else is he going to do? (and it puts him sort of where the character is in the books, if he's involved in looking for Rickon).

3. Littlefinger and the Vale armies show up for the next battle with the Boltons and...well, whatever happens at that point and what Sansa and co. do is anybody's guess.

[Khal Boner]

Her finding the truth about her brothers also served little to no purpose.

You thought she'd find them this season? It's vital information that is going to be important in the next season.

[Newstar]

Jeyne and Theon both survived an identical fall in the books.

I call bullshit if Theon and Sansa escape from a fall that height without dying or suffering extremely serious injuries. Bull. Shit. They are not fucking cats.

...Yes, I am aware that it happened that way in the books, with Jeyne having only some broken ribs to show for it. I still call bullshit. GRRM's medical knowledge is shit, but there's no reason for the show to make the same mistake.

Thus my speculation that one or both of them could die from the fall. If all Theon has left to do in the books is being executed by Stannis, something which cannot happen in the show, I'd say bumping him off in 6x01 would be a good way of getting rid of the character to streamline the narrative, something as we have seen the writers are extremely fond of doing; he shatters his spine, Brienne and Pod arrive to whisk Sansa away, Sansa wants to take Theon, Theon requests a mercy kill, Sansa tearfully forgives him, Brienne offs Theon, DONE. As for Theon being kept around in the show to invalidate the kingsmoot, it depends on whether there is one in the show. I tend to think it will be left out; a big crowd scene with a bunch of nobodies except Yara? Seems like the sort of thing that would easily get cut for budget reasons so they can save up money for dragons. And if there's no kingsmoot, there's no reason to keep Theon around. I imagine there might be some scene where Yara's like "Why does Euron get to appoint himself king? I'm Balon's daughter" and someone else is like "Girl, please, no one will take you seriously after your disastrous outing against Ramsay," and that will be the end of that.

[Colonel Green]

I still call bullshit. GRRM's medical knowledge is shit, but there's no reason for the show to make the same mistake.

I would say the obvious reason would be that the plot requires them to get away, which they can't do if they have broken legs.