Better Call Saul

[sifth]

1 minute ago, drawkcabi said:

Chuck is a perfectionist and has no give. It always has to be his way and he is uncompromising about it. He will never meet someone half way or make allowances for anything. It's helped him be a brilliant lawyer but a lousy brother.

 

I completely agree.

[Cas Stark]

22 minutes ago, The Unborn said:

But you know nothing about his relationship with his mom,and dad, for that matter. I wish we would know what happened to his wife.

We do though.  We know that Chuck went home to help sort out their father's finances and found out someone, Jimmy, had been stealing money, and this led to the loss of the store.  We know that in the convo they had in the opener that Jimmy created some kind of havoc at his mother's birthday party...and that she didn't care, because everybody loves Jimmy.  We know Jimmy was a con man and that Chuck repeatedly got him out of jams.  And we know that Jimmy is very likable and Chuck isn't.

[Paladin of Ice]

More, the reason why I don't see Chuck as fully justified, (partly but a long way from fully justified) is because he could have headed this all off at the start. He could have sat Jimmy down when Jimmy came and told him about the law degree, explained that good name and reputation is all a lawyer has in the business, that they can't just hire someone newly out of law school with Jimmy's past, how if they did it would like nepotism, and it would be ridiculous considering the source of Jimmy's degree. He could have then had a very sober chat about how it's a different life being a lawyer, it requires a code of conduct, it prevents cutting corners, etc.

After that, even if he didn't believe Jimmy was straight, he could have wished him well, crossed his fingers, and let Jimmy try to make his way. If he made, it, great. If not, c'est la vie. Instead he pretended to be Jimmy's friend while sabotaging him at every step, (despite the fact that Jimmy was now desperate trying to take care of Chuck) drove him to desperation and near poverty with nary a thank you or good word, spitefully taunted Jimmy about being late to his job at Clifford and Main because Jimmy had come over to take care of Chuck, and most recently the fact that Jimmy helped Chuck in the copy store instead of pulling a Walter White watching Jane choke to death.

And he has the gall to complain about Jimmy sabotaging his Mesa Verde meeting when he's been sabotaging Jimmy 24/7/365 for what, upwards of a year?

We do though.  We know that Chuck went home to help sort out their father's finances and found out someone, Jimmy, had been stealing money, and this led to the loss of the store.  We know that in the convo they had in the opener that Jimmy created some kind of havoc at his mother's birthday party...and that she didn't care, because everybody loves Jimmy

For the first point, there's the possibility that Jimmy and Chuck's father was at least partially responsible for the hole in the store's finances thanks to giving out cash and product to the conmen and grifters that frequented the store. And the havoc at Mom's birthday party sounded like it happened when Jimmy was a teen, and if that's the worst thing that happens during someone's teen years with their parents, those parents are getting off light.

The thing is though, Chuck has judged Jimmy, and he doesn't allow for the possibility that Jimmy could change, and that drives Jimmy back to his old ways. And at least part of it is because Chuck resents Jimmy's way with people and being well thought of by their parents. Like I said in a prior post, both of those guys are flawed and twisted. And each one exacerbates the flaws that the other one has.

[Cas Stark]

I agree with all of that.

With that said though, despite that "we" also like Jimmy, "we" also know that Chuck is 100% right about him, he hasn't changed and he can't change.  He could have made the D&M job work, he didn't really try.  He could have been thrilled that he finally got Kim to do what he'd always wanted and Just Left It At That, a fresh start for them both, and had faith that as he told her, if she could do it 1x, she can do it 2x.  

Jimmy could have let it all go right there and then and had a brand new start, but instead, he can't stop himself from "helping" Kim, despite it's in direct contradiction to everything she had previously told him.  

[RumHam]

Great episode. Now I'm curious who left the note. I mean I know it was Fring but he didn't do it personally. I wonder if next season we'll meet Mike's predecessor in his organization. 

[Talleyrand]

If they're bringing back people it could be Gus' henchman who's name escapes me - the Native American guy who got boxcuttered

[RumHam]

I think that was one of mike's guys. Plus he was so young it's hard to imagine Fring trusting him in the Mike role. I think it'd be cool to see Mike interact with a new character whose just as capable as him but less concerned with stuff like not killing people. 

[Cas Stark]

Has anyone explained the age discrepancy with Mike's granddaughter?  This is seems like a big continuity issue unless she was a lot older than I remember her being in BB.

[RumHam]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Has anyone explained the age discrepancy with Mike's granddaughter?  This is seems like a big continuity issue unless she was a lot older than I remember her being in BB.

Yeah they messed up a bit there. She should only be like four at most. So she's an abnormally large and intelligent four year old. Or Hank got her age wrong in Breaking Bad. It's not really any worse than Odenkerk playing the 20-something version of Jimmy.

[Swordfish]

16 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

Chuck isn't wrong, he's just an asshole. Both he and Jimmy are flawed and twisted in their own way, the difference being that Jimmy devotes his efforts to people and Chuck to an institution and ideal.

But Chuck is, no doubt, a full on arrogant asshole. and because he's a brilliant arrogant asshole, he cannot change his mind, cannot permit himself to see people differently from his judgement of them, and cannot admit being in the wrong about anything.

 

He's not wrong about anything, so why would he change his mind about Jimmy?  Jimmy keeps doing shit that reinforces his opinion 100%.....  Jimmy is exactly what Chuck thinks he is.

Chick is simply less charming than Jimmy.  This outrage at Chuck is a great testament to the value of charm over substance.

 

 

[sifth]

26 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

 

He's not wrong about anything, so why would he change his mind about Jimmy?  Jimmy keeps doing shit that reinforces his opinion 100%.....  Jimmy is exactly what Chuck thinks he is.

Chick is simply less charming than Jimmy.  This outrage at Chuck is a great testament to the value of charm over substance.

 

 

Mostly because Chuck drives Jimmy away and even tried to ruin his professional working carer by being the worlds worst big brother, despite the fact that Jimmy spent all of last season looking after Chuck and treating him nicely.

 

It's more like Chuck wants to do everything imaginable to keep Jimmy beneath him.

[Swordfish]

16 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

 

 

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Mostly because Chuck drives Jimmy away and even tried to ruin his professional working carer by being the worlds worst big brother, despite the fact that Jimmy spent all of last season looking after Chuck and treating him nicely.

 

It's more like Chuck wants to do everything imaginable to keep Jimmy beneath him.

This is patently absurd.  Jimmy has been fucking over everyone in his path since he was a child.

Somehow trying to blame chuck for jimmy's behavior is ridiculous.  it's been made clear that Chuck has bailed Jimmy out time and time again, and Jimmy just keeps on being Jimmy.  

 

[Ken Stone]

3 hours ago, Paladin of Ice said:

More, the reason why I don't see Chuck as fully justified, (partly but a long way from fully justified) is because he could have headed this all off at the start. He could have sat Jimmy down when Jimmy came and told him about the law degree, explained that good name and reputation is all a lawyer has in the business, that they can't just hire someone newly out of law school with Jimmy's past, how if they did it would like nepotism, and it would be ridiculous considering the source of Jimmy's degree. He could have then had a very sober chat about how it's a different life being a lawyer, it requires a code of conduct, it prevents cutting corners, etc.

After that, even if he didn't believe Jimmy was straight, he could have wished him well, crossed his fingers, and let Jimmy try to make his way. If he made, it, great. If not, c'est la vie. Instead he pretended to be Jimmy's friend while sabotaging him at every step, (despite the fact that Jimmy was now desperate trying to take care of Chuck) drove him to desperation and near poverty with nary a thank you or good word, spitefully taunted Jimmy about being late to his job at Clifford and Main because Jimmy had come over to take care of Chuck, and most recently the fact that Jimmy helped Chuck in the copy store instead of pulling a Walter White watching Jane choke to death.

And he has the gall to complain about Jimmy sabotaging his Mesa Verde meeting when he's been sabotaging Jimmy 24/7/365 for what, upwards of a year?

 

 

For the first point, there's the possibility that Jimmy and Chuck's father was at least partially responsible for the hole in the store's finances thanks to giving out cash and product to the conmen and grifters that frequented the store. And the havoc at Mom's birthday party sounded like it happened when Jimmy was a teen, and if that's the worst thing that happens during someone's teen years with their parents, those parents are getting off light.

The thing is though, Chuck has judged Jimmy, and he doesn't allow for the possibility that Jimmy could change, and that drives Jimmy back to his old ways. And at least part of it is because Chuck resents Jimmy's way with people and being well thought of by their parents. Like I said in a prior post, both of those guys are flawed and twisted. And each one exacerbates the flaws that the other one has.

 

This isn't just about Chuck and Jimmy though? What about Mesa? What did they (and their shareholders) do to deserve to be defrauded out of millions of dollars? Those are innocent people getting completely fucked over. If that was you that lost that money to fraud you wouldn't think Chuck was being an asshole at all. 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Mostly because Chuck drives Jimmy away and even tried to ruin his professional working carer by being the worlds worst big brother, despite the fact that Jimmy spent all of last season looking after Chuck and treating him nicely.

 

It's more like Chuck wants to do everything imaginable to keep Jimmy beneath him.

Does he?  Isn't it possible w/Jimmy's history as a petty criminal, he was going to have trouble getting in the door at any professional organization?  I understand Chuck didn't want him to be a lawyer at HHM, but I can't blame him.  We're given to understand that Chuck has been bailing Jimmy out for years, the last time keeping him out of jail when he shit in some guy's car.  

Chuck hates the fact that Jimmy's  charm and gift of gab counts for more with people and gets him further than Chuck's ethics, even though Chuck knows that Jimmy is a grifter and that ethics should beat charm.  I can't really blame him there though it's clear that this jealousy has soured their relationship, at least as much as Jimmy being a grifter has.

Let's remember, that when Chuck suspected Jimmy of illegal solicitation he was right again.  Jimmy is jeopardizing a massive class action lawsuit AND the hopes of his clients by again cutting corners.  Sure, Chuck was a jerk about it, that's why he's a jerk, but he was also right.

[DaveSumm]

Well, colour me stupid, I didn't see the tape recording coming at all. I thought they would leave it in ambiguity as to whether Chuck believed him or not. 

Again, they they write the brotherly relationship is genius. The reason there's so much arguing about who's right and wrong is because the resulting action would be exactly the same; Chuck does deserve to clear his name. But we suspect he's also looking forward to knocking Jimmy down, we all assume he'd do this even if his good name didn't ride on it. Would he? Possibly. The show still leans to Jimmy's perspective so we default to thinking he would, I think there's a lot more to explore with the two of them.

I know a lot of people bounce off this show as its not as action packed as BB, but I'd happily watch another season of Chuck and Jimmy, I think it's wonderful.

[Steinman]

I very much didn't like that Chuck deliberately played on the good in Jimmy (the care he has for his older brother) to get what he needed.

[Mark Antony]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I understand Chuck didn't want him to be a lawyer at HHM, but I can't blame him. 

I am not sure I have seen one person blame Chuck for not wanting Jimmy working at HHM. It's the behind the back snake in the grass way he went about making sure it didn't happen that pisses people off. All the while Jimmy was taking care of him every day. He should have been straight up with him about it from the jump, they're brothers. 

 

[Paladin of Ice]

1 hour ago, Ken Stone said:

This isn't just about Chuck and Jimmy though? What about Mesa? What did they (and their shareholders) do to deserve to be defrauded out of millions of dollars? Those are innocent people getting completely fucked over. If that was you that lost that money to fraud you wouldn't think Chuck was being an asshole at all. 

It requires Chuck to be screwing over his brother to have Mesa Verde ever involved. If, as I said, Chuck sat down with Jimmy and had a serious talk with him when Jimmy got the law degree, none of this happens. And if Jimmy was just some random person in HHM's mailroom that Chuck knew had been shady years ago but had since been straight for years, Chuck would have never done any of this. He would have advised against giving the person a position as a lawyer, shrugged, and let the person screw up or not on his own.

But with Jimmy, Chuck went out of his way to make sure that Jimmy would never be able to be able to go straight. Never even have a shot at it. And I absolutely do not believe he would have done that with another person. He wrecked Jimmy's attempt to go straight, and he is in the middle of trying to wreck Jimmy's chance of being a slightly crooked success. What happened with Mesa Verde was Jimmy finally pushing back.

Again, Chuck had the opportunity to be a stand up guy and do this openly when Jimmy came to tell him about the law degree. He chose not to. Chuck chose to make Howard play the bad guy. Chuck chose to undermine Jimmy from within when Jimmy thought Chuck was virtually his only friend and ally. Chuck chose to repeatedly spite Jimmy even as Jimmy nearly killed himself taking care of Chuck.

And Chuck did all this after hearing Jimmy swear that he was going to change his life, after he saw Jimmy living on the straight and narrow for years. (Jimmy worked in the mailroom long enough to get a law degree, even from a degree mill/correspondence school that takes a lot of time, as would taking the bar multiple times) He then watched Jimmy be an honest underpaid public defender/solo practitioner for at least another year. (When Jimmy gave Howard a list of Chuck's needs, Howard was shocked and incredulously stated that Jimmy had been doing that for more than a year.)

Chuck chose to be a backstabber instead of a straight up guy about his brother practicing law. That backstabbing had a lot of unintended repercussions, and Chuck has his share of responsibility for it all.

[Swordfish]

8 minutes ago, Paladin of Ice said:

It requires Chuck to be screwing over his brother to have Mesa Verde ever involved. If, as I said, Chuck sat down with Jimmy and had a serious talk with him when Jimmy got the law degree, none of this happens.

If you really think this is true, I have literally no idea what show you are watching.

 

Quote

But with Jimmy, Chuck went out of his way to make sure that Jimmy would never be able to be able to go straight. Never even have a shot at it. And I absolutely do not believe he would have done that with another person. He wrecked Jimmy's attempt to go straight, and he is in the middle of trying to wreck Jimmy's chance of being a slightly crooked success. What happened with Mesa Verde was Jimmy finally pushing back.

Jimmy is incapable of going straight.  We've seen crystal clear examples of this.  The writers have gone out of their way to demonstrate it. Blaming chuck for jimmy's behavior is silly, and contrary to all the information the show has given us.

[Ken Stone]

2 minutes ago, Paladin of Ice said:

It requires Chuck to be screwing over his brother to have Mesa Verde ever involved. If, as I said, Chuck sat down with Jimmy and had a serious talk with him when Jimmy got the law degree, none of this happens. And if Jimmy was just some random person in HHM's mailroom that Chuck knew had been shady years ago but had since been straight for years, Chuck would have never done any of this. He would have advised against giving the person a position as a lawyer, shrugged, and let the person screw up or not on his own.

But with Jimmy, Chuck went out of his way to make sure that Jimmy would never be able to be able to go straight. Never even have a shot at it. And I absolutely do not believe he would have done that with another person. He wrecked Jimmy's attempt to go straight, and he is in the middle of trying to wreck Jimmy's chance of being a slightly crooked success. What happened with Mesa Verde was Jimmy finally pushing back.

Again, Chuck had the opportunity to be a stand up guy and do this openly when Jimmy came to tell him about the law degree. He chose not to. Chuck chose to make Howard play the bad guy. Chuck chose to undermine Jimmy from within when Jimmy thought Chuck was virtually his only friend and ally. Chuck chose to repeatedly spite Jimmy even as Jimmy nearly killed himself taking care of Chuck.

And Chuck did all this after hearing Jimmy swear that he was going to change his life, after he saw Jimmy living on the straight and narrow for years. (Jimmy worked in the mailroom long enough to get a law degree, even from a degree mill/correspondence school that takes a lot of time, as would taking the bar multiple times) He then watched Jimmy be an honest underpaid public defender/solo practitioner for at least another year. (When Jimmy gave Howard a list of Chuck's needs, Howard was shocked and incredulously stated that Jimmy had been doing that for more than a year.)

Chuck chose to be a backstabber instead of a straight up guy about his brother practicing law. That backstabbing had a lot of unintended repercussions, and Chuck has his share of responsibility for it all.

 

It was pretty straight forward. Jimmy committed the fraud because of his affection for Kim, not to hurt Chuck. Also, the "I defrauded innocent people of millions of dollars because my brother was mean to me" argument is extremely weak. Maybe we need to agree to disagree here.