the dragon riders

[Shierak Qiya]

On 3/8/2016 at 7:46 PM, The Unburnt Martell said:

So almost everyone believes r+l=j, therefore jon is likely going to be a dragon rider, my question is which dragon is he going to ride? (excluding the ice dragon because it is not part of the same universe) I was thinking drogon because of the whole black NW cloak and drogon being black thing, also we are not 100% that dany has tamed him. What are your thoughts on the whole dragon riders thing?  

Drogon is Dany's dragon.  He clearly loves Dany, having rescued her twice.  At the House of the Undying and at Daznak's Pit. 

Jon Snow should stick to his white cur, Ghost.  He has no business riding a dragon.  He's the ice side of the equation and should stay that way. 

The dragon riders are:

1. Daenerys Targaryen - on Drogon
2. Tyrion Lannister - on Viserion
3. Missandei - on Rhaegal

This is a long story and we will see Missandei grow up and blossom into a loyal member of Dany's council.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, Franklin VI said:

Drogon is Dany's dragon.  He clearly loves Dany, having rescued her twice.  At the House of the Undying and at Daznak's Pit. 

Jon Snow should stick to his white cur, Ghost.  He has no business riding a dragon.  He's the ice side of the equation and should stay that way. 

The dragon riders are:

1. Daenerys Targaryen - on Drogon
2. Tyrion Lannister - on Viserion
3. Missandei - on Rhaegal

This is a long story and we will see Missandei grow up and blossom into a loyal member of Dany's council.

But you agree that The Dusky Woman is Missandei's mum, right? 

[Sydney Mae]

OMG, this has to be the most popular poll question.  'Kay, before I give my three, let me lay out the theory.  Dany is the female version of Aegon the Conqueror.  Her story will almost exactly parallel his.  Her sidekicks (or wingmen as they are referred to on this forum)  will also be her husbands.  As Rhaenys and Visenya were the wives of Aegon, Dany's sidekicks will be her future husbands.  I also believe too much has been made of the Blackfyres for them not to play a role in the story.  We will finally see the reconciliation of House Targaryen and House Blackfyre when Dany exposes Aegon, and marries him.  Dany will have many husbands, Jorah being one.  However, I think he ends up on the wall. 

Tyrion's first two marriages failed.  Jorah's first two marriages failed.  Remember, #3 is important and significant.  Dany will be their third marriage, and it will work for its intended purpose.  But Jorah ends up taking the black.  Tyrion will too, but much later than Jorah.  Both their crimes are too great to pardon away in Westeros, I think.  But during the conquest, Tyrion and Aegon will ride Viserion and Rhaegal, respectively.  Dany, of course, will ride her Drogon.  So there you have it.  Dany rides her Drogon, Tyrion rides Viserion, and Aegon gets Rhaegal.

[Danelle]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

In that sense I think it is clear that this series definitely needs 3-4 books to be concluded, perhaps even more. Trying to rush the ending would ruin the story.

You make very interesting points but the quote above is the most important.

As you mentioned, the books were originally a trilogy. But we know that the original synopsis was vastly different from the books which were eventually published. Characters with crucial role in the story were absent, whereas other characters such as Jaime had traits which were later given to other characters.

In short the story expanded from a trilogy to several volumes.

In fact Anne Groel from the beginning knew that the trilogy was not sufficient in order for the story to be told.

Quote

"I remember when he called me, years and years back, to confess that his little trilogy was…well…no longer a trilogy. He predicted four books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he said five books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he went to six. I said… Well, you get it. Finally, we were on the same page. Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Good. Only, as I recently learned while editing The World of Ice and Fire (another awesome thing you must buy when it comes out!), there are really technically eight kingdoms, all having to do with who has annexed what when Aegon the Conqueror landed in Westeros. So, maybe eight books for Seven Kingdoms would be okay."

She also said that their contract refers to 7 books(the interview is from 2014, I don't know if there have been any recent developments). 

3-4 books to conclude the series would be ideal, but I don't know how realistic it is. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Danelle said:

You make very interesting points but the quote above is the most important.

As you mentioned, the books were originally a trilogy. But we know that the original synopsis was vastly different from the books which were eventually published. Characters with crucial role in the story were absent, whereas other characters such as Jaime had traits which were later given to other characters.

In short the story expanded from a trilogy to several volumes.

In fact Anne Groel from the beginning knew that the trilogy was not sufficient in order for the story to be told.

She also said that their contract refers to 7 books(the interview is from 2014, I don't know if there have been any recent developments). 

3-4 books to conclude the series would be ideal, but I don't know how realistic it is. 

Yeah, I know that Anne understood the stuff much earlier than George himself. I really don't get it why he actually doesn't realize that his plan isn't very realistic. Most likely it is because he doesn't really have a detailed plan laid out for the story but rather has certain visions and key plot points in his mind but getting there might then take more time than he imagined.

I really think the basic outline outline from the early story still stands - we'll have Dany conquering the Iron Throne in some fashion, and then the huge climax tying all dangling plot lines together in the fight against the Others. That is not going to change.

The difficult part is how he is going to connect all that. Technically this should mean that the Others cannot make their big move until after Dany has arrived in Westeros so there is still time for her to fight against Aegon (or whoever is going to oppose her). If the Others were already marching down south when Dany arrived there wouldn't be much reason for an internal conflict among the humans (or it would at least have to take place in the background).

Another potential cause for conflict would be the mantle of the promised prince. Dany is going to meet certain people who will tell her about the prophecy and her role in it (Moqorro, Marwyn - who actually knows about the Others). But we also know that Rhaegar believed Aegon was the promised prince - and if Aegon learns of the Others and finds out what his father believed he was (from Jon Connington or Varys) then he will most likely insist that it is his job to save mankind.

I'm pretty sure that this will become an important point in the coming conflicts. Samwell has already indicated as much in his last chapter when he told Alleras and Marwyn that Aemon believed Dany and not Aegon was the promised savior. Not to mention the Slayer of Lies visions make more sense if we interpret them as referring to false saviors rather than false kings because it is very unlikely indeed that the Undying/prophetic powers care about 'vague inheritance laws' (Does Dany really have a better legal claim to the Iron Throne? That is a difficult question to answer.) rather than about the really special destiny.

In that sense, even a real Aegon could still be a fake savior, just like Stannis is.

[Lost Melnibonean]

LV and Danelle, I think it comes down to how complex the War for the Dawn is. Even though the Second Dance of the Dragons has become very complex, he ought be able to conclude it in less than 1,200 words, even has he continues to set up the War for the Dawn. 

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

LV and Danelle, I think it comes down to how complex the War for the Dawn is. Even though the Second Dance of the Dragons has become very complex, he ought be able to conclude it in less than 1,200 words, even has he continues to set up the War for the Dawn. 

The point is that the War for the Dawn doesn't only has to be set up but actually cover some pages. If there are only two books left both the Second Dance and the War for the Dawn would, in the end, be covered on less pages than the War of the Five Kings. That would make the structure of the series very unbalanced, making it look like a TV show that was canceled prematurely without being able to properly end the story.

Not to mention that neither the Second Dance (if it is the name for a conflict involving Daenerys in Westeros) nor the War for the Dawn can be actually featured in TWoW. That is just not going to work. Perhaps Dany can reach Westeros in TWoW but only if she begins her journey early on in the book - and it doesn't look that way right now - and only if she doesn't stop at Volantis, Lys, and Tyrosh to free the slaves there on the way (which seems unlikely considering the nature of her movement).

In addition, if the Others don't make their move early on in TWoW it would be rather difficult for the whole Others threat be fest as such by the entirety of Westeros by the end of the book.

Not to mention that Stannis-Bolton and the Wall situation has to be resolved before any of that happens, or else the Others will just crush anyone in their path without anyone surviving to even warn the people in the South that they are coming.

The whole Jon Snow situation has to be resolved in 'resurrecting way' before the Others can attack or else any chance of Jon becoming an important player in the fight against the Others will be lost.

George's plan for the end supposedly is some huge climax involving all the dangling threads. That in itself most likely would need about an entire book right now even if the Others were already marching down right now and Dany had already arrived simply because we have a lot of characters at different places who have to be brought into that climax just in a few chapters. That wouldn't be convincing in a realistic setting. Conflict and mistrust has to be overcome, people have to realize and figure that they have to work together and how that can work, and so on.

There is a reasonable chance that events will go more quickly now with certain POVs being together, reducing the overall number of chapters to tell the story (Asha/Theon, Jaime/Brienne, Barristan/Tyrion/Victarion, eventually Arianne/Jon Connington) but that doesn't necessarily make the story progress a lot quicker. We see that certain events like battles (the Battle of Meereen) seems to increase the amount of chapters there are, and from previous battles we know that the aftermath of such battles also need additional chapters (battles in AGoT, the aftermath of the Blackwater covered by multiple Sansa, Tyrion, and Davos chapters).

One also assumes that there will be still a lot of buildup before the Others make their final move. We should know a little bit more about their nature, their goals, and their powers before they finally attack and destroy the Wall. ADwD literally gave us nothing new on the Others - which is good hint that TWoW will give us now that buildup rather than the actual attack early on. A very interesting plot could be Bran figuring out that/how they plan to bring down the Wall and then whoever survives Winterfell and the Wall situation will desperately try to thwart that plan. While the Others are still on their side of the Wall the guys in the North still stand a small chance to last until the spring - although I actually doubt that. If the Others all assembled at the basis of the Wall the coldness they bring with them might actually be devastating enough to kill anyone guarding the Wall on the other side. The Wall doesn't protect you against the cold, after all.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

13 hours ago, Franklin VI said:

Drogon is Dany's dragon.  He clearly loves Dany, having rescued her twice.  At the House of the Undying and at Daznak's Pit. 

Jon Snow should stick to his white cur, Ghost.  He has no business riding a dragon.  He's the ice side of the equation and should stay that way. 

The dragon riders are:

1. Daenerys Targaryen - on Drogon
2. Tyrion Lannister - on Viserion
3. Missandei - on Rhaegal

This is a long story and we will see Missandei grow up and blossom into a loyal member of Dany's council.

No one with out dragon blood has ever ridden a dragon, how do you suppose Missandei will do it?

[Erudain]

yay uncle-cest lol....

Btw about the dragon warging I think it's quite possible.....on one of Tyrion POV he asks himself "why Valirya at the zenith of its power never moved beyond Dragonstone?, they surely knew the riches Westeros hold, but they never made a move for it until Aegon."

My theory? it's because they knew the CotF and the First Men had wargs that could turn their dragons against them. Sure, the Andals already invaded and are conquering all the old kingdoms, but the blood of the First Men was still strong, the warging potential is still present, and you don't want to face the Andals army + a bunch of freak who can turn your air superiority against you.

[Jen'ari]

Alvin,Simon, Theodore.

[Reek1]

I have always imagined Jon/Nights Watch getting their asses kicked by the Others.

Jon travels to Mereen to find Dany/Tyrion and ask for their help. Dany flips her shit and calls him the bastard son of the man who helped usurp her fathers throne. She tries to execute Jon by Dragon Fire, Rhaegal pretty much says 'Bitch Please' and protects Jon. A few chapters later with Cersei, Victarion and Arianne filler content in between we get to Jon and Dany riding dragons into battle against the Others.

[Nictarion]

5 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

No one with out dragon blood has ever ridden a dragon, how do you suppose Missandei will do it?

Well, we don't know that for certain.  Nettles may or may not have been a seed. It seems GRRM left it ambiguous on purpose. 

[Lord Varys]

27 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Well, we don't know that for certain.  Nettles may or may not have been a seed. It seems GRRM left it ambiguous on purpose. 

Nettles isn't more ambiguous than the Hugh and Ulf, and for some reason nobody is ever suggesting they had no dragonlord blood.

All the dragonseed dragonriders are either from Dragonstone (Ulf, Hugh, and Nettles) or have a confirmed dragonlord ancestry (Addam of Hull).

If one them was from beyond the Wall or from a remote place in the Vale or the North where it would be very unlikely to expect some dragonlord descendants the idea that dragonseeds status is 'ambiguous' would carry some weight. But the way it is it seems to me that Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles are as likely to have some Valyrian blood as the average skinchanger in the North has some First Men/Children of the Forest ancestors.

[Nictarion]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nettles isn't more ambiguous than the Hugh and Ulf, and for some reason nobody is ever suggesting they had no dragonlord blood.

All the dragonseed dragonriders are either from Dragonstone (Ulf, Hugh, and Nettles) or have a confirmed dragonlord ancestry (Addam of Hull).

If one them was from beyond the Wall or from a remote place in the Vale or the North where it would be very unlikely to expect some dragonlord descendants the idea that dragonseeds status is 'ambiguous' would carry some weight. But the way it is it seems to me that Hugh, Ulf, and Nettles are as likely to have some Valyrian blood as the average skinchanger in the North has some First Men/Children of the Forest ancestors.

To me she is, because of the way she tamed Sheepstealer. 

[chrisdaw]

I wonder if the dragon blood requirement has been left ambiguous because he wants to leave the question of A+J=T always ambiguous.

Regardless, in world I have no doubt Dany is going to believe dragon blood is required to ride her dragons.

[John Suburbs]

Dany is the mother of dragons. I don't seen any reason why she shouldn't be able to ride all three. So in that sense I don't think she is bound to Drogon any more than the other two.

My suspicion is that each dragon inherited the spirit of one of the three lives that were in the pyre with Dany -- only life can pay for death. Drogon got Drogo obviously. Viserion is Rhaego, given the way he is always clinging to Dany and crying out to her, like a lost child looking for its mother. Rhaegal is MMD, aloof and suspicious, but still Dany's child nonetheless.

So for that reason, if I were Dany I would ride Viserion. He will place her safety above all other considerations, even in the heat of battle. Then I would put Jon on Drogon -- black on black, the biggest dragon for the biggest hero. And then I would put Tyrion on Rhaegal -- from Dany's POV, he's just as untrustworthy as MMD.

But you rarely get that kind of symmetry from GRRM, so it's probably going to be something completely unexpected. How about Varys as a rider? Or Illyrio, har!

[Danelle]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I wonder if the dragon blood requirement has been left ambiguous because he wants to leave the question of A+J=T always ambiguous.

Regardless, in world I have no doubt Dany is going to believe dragon blood is required to ride her dragons.

I think that if indeed dragonblood is a requirement(which is very plausible) for one to become a dragonrider, then it would be a spoiler if GRRM in the novellas revealed it.

Even if Tyrion is not Aerys' son, the dragonblood requirement limits the number to the possible dragonriders to few characters, with Targaryen ancestry, so yeah, GRRM deliberately chose to be very vague about it.

Has he ever been asked about it?

The only statement that he has made-that I know of-regarding magic in general, is that there is no system to the magic in Westeros which actually explains why certain magical events are not entirely random, even though they may seem to be, initially.

 

[HexMachina]

On 8 March 2016 at 7:21 AM, Nictarion said:

Drogon is Dany's dragon. They're bonded together  (have been since before she ever even rode him), I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.

Jon is going to have to settle for one of the other two perfectly good dragons that don't already have riders. The idea that he will ride Drogon because he's black is ridiculous. I think it's more about people wanting him to have the biggest dragon. Why not Rhaegal,  who's named for his father? Makes much more sense to me than him riding a dragon named after Dany's husband. To whom he has no connection. 

Tall towers, long lances, biggest dragon...is Jon snow trying to tell us something?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

36 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Has he ever been asked about it?

There is a lot of ambiguity inserted when dragons and dragon bonding is addressed and it's certainly on purpose so that, when we get a "real-time" answer, its impact is not reduced. IMO, Nettles case is especially designed to allow space to doubt the "sine qua non" of the blood requirement.

The SSM that is (sort of) relevent is about the "three heads":

"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

The wording is so open to interpretations that everyone thinks that it adds credibility to their own theory. Even about the three heads being one and the same person.

[Danelle]

26 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

 

The SSM that is (sort of) relevent is about the "three heads":

"Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..."

The wording is so open to interpretations that everyone thinks that it adds credibility to their own theory. Even about the three heads being one and the same person.

Exactly, instead of guiding us towards a likely explanation, GRRM only further perplexes the story.

Not necessarily a Targaryen could refer to the fact that Jon has little to do with his targ ancestry since he was raised by the Starks, or that he is a Snow or even a legitimised Stark.

The same might apply to Tyrion, if he is a Targ bastard then he is a Hill or even Aegon, who might qualify but might as well be a Blackfyre.