Strong powerful women

[OldGimletEye]

7 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

. After the Lannisters mutilated Elia, her children, and Oberyn enough was enough and Ellaria/Sand Snakes decided this was the recourse they had to take.

Then discuss whether Ellaria's actions were appropriate or were not appropriate under the circumstances and don't try to win the argument by throwing around buzzwords like "agency".

[Good Guy Garlan]

3 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

True, but "agency" was thrown around a lot last year in regards to Sansa. So it's a buzzword now?

Yeah, it meant little then and it means nothing now, for the purposes of this discussion. To praise a character for having agency is like praising your town mayor for picking up the trash: that's the least he can do. 

 

[Tianzi]

8 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Please stop with the troll nonsense. I really want to have a conversation with you and everyone else on this. Now Oberyn said "we don't harm little girls in Dorne", but remember at that point in time they didn't. After what happened to Oberyn it set off a fire in Ellaria and that all changed. After the Lannisters mutilated Elia, her children, and Oberyn enough was enough and Ellaria/Sand Snakes decided this was the recourse they had to take.

If you want to have a conversation, you might start with not ignoring arguments.

Oberyn lost a fight he entered voluntarily. He 'avenged' himself by poisoning the opponent, which ironically was the only sensible action undertaken in this departament by the Dornish, so I guess the men win this round.

Ellaria and her spawn killed Oberyn and Elia's relatives and one innocent girl who wasn't even born when the murders (Oberyn death wasn't a murder) occured. Two Martells and one underage Lannister Baratheon, non of whom had any part of what they were supposedly 'avenging'. They accomplished nothing, hell, they possibly killed the only person who actually planned to execute revenge and was just being smart with it. They are idiots. They are psychos. They reinforce the stereotype that women = all hormones and no brain. Not to get into the topic of stereotypical portrayal of the 'exotic' people.

They are offensive. And they're probably not even meant to be 'strong'. They are a product of the mind of someone who thinks that hot girls with weapons = arousing.

[TepidHands]

2 hours ago, Joan Jett said:

By killing his brother, nephew, and an innocent girl. Just what Oberyn would have wanted. 

And the little GRANDDAUGHTER of the man who ordered Elia and her children killed. Agency! 

Ninja'd by Tianzi 

Also from the OP: Cersei being "strong" this season? She's down to one single kid and blames herself not listening to Jaime, a damn bonehead. Margaery  "strong"? She's cooling her heels in the Baelor Hotel. Women aren't "on top" this season on the show. The closest poor Fat Walda came to that was being on top of the menu at the Winterhell kennel. 

It's just tits and dragons and covers of EW now. 

[Joy Hill]

At this point, I'm just glad that Arianne did not make it to the show. She probably would have killed her own father and brother in the name of vengeance and female empowerment. 

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Please stop with the troll nonsense. I really want to have a conversation with you and everyone else on this. Now Oberyn said "we don't harm little girls in Dorne", but remember at that point in time they didn't. After what happened to Oberyn it set off a fire in Ellaria and that all changed. After the Lannisters mutilated Elia, her children, and Oberyn enough was enough and Ellaria/Sand Snakes decided this was the recourse they had to take.

How did killing her brother in law and her nephew, indeed the last of the formal Martell line, avenge the other dead Martells?

What's the point of starting a war with the Lannisters to avenge your family, when you, yourself, have now killed off the rest?  

Myrcella, at least some plausible rationale exists, she's a Lannister princess, like their relatives....but killing their OWN FAMILY to get revenghe for their family...doesn't get stupider than that.

[Richard Writhen]

_{My favorite strong female characters in ASOIAF are Val and Margaery.}

[Pies are coming]

I think we should back down from "Har! Strong women!"

What we're having this season is "Women in power". That doesn't mean we have "admirable characters little girls who are too young to watch the show anyways should admire and emulate". That means "women with power"

Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are murderers who belong in a jail.

Cersei also belongs in a jail and, at this point, she's pretty much beaten. She knows her last living son will die. All that's left for her is to recover some semblance of power and make her many enemies suffer.

Sansa is finally coming out of the shell and of course she's going to be afraid of entering a potentially lethal cold river while having no issue in getting actual warriors (ie, not her) risk their lives for her, and her siblings.

Dany was awesome last episode. And yes, she can be evil to her enemies, or suspected enemies. She is no Saint Dany, but rather Queen Dany. Kings and Queens weren't nice, human rights caretakers back in the days were they had power.

Meera is depressed, and with good reason.

Brienne is GoT one true knight, as she killed her only competitor in that contest.

As for that wildling warrior, anyone can loose their shit when fighting magical ice zombies. Surprise!

 

So, no, they aren't creating perfect women. Sometimes, they screw up, like Dorne. Sometimes, they are making people able to do evil deeds, and those people happen to lack a dick between their legs.

[Tianzi]

20 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

How did killing her brother in law and her nephew, indeed the last of the formal Martell line, avenge the other dead Martells?

What's the point of starting a war with the Lannisters to avenge your family, when you, yourself, have now killed off the rest?  

Myrcella, at least some plausible rationale exists, she's a Lannister princess, like their relatives....but killing their OWN FAMILY to get revenghe for their family...doesn't get stupider than that.

The best part? Jaime sent Trystane off because he legitimately feared Cersei would off him (the opinion Tommen agreed with - sigh, even JAIME AND TOMMEN had more sensibility there than our strong females) For Revenge^TM, but instead he was offed by his own relatives. For Revenge^TM. Apparently poor Trystane, who did literally nothing, was an excellent target of Strong Female Revenge^TM from both friggin' opposing sides. 

[Jack Bauer 24]

50 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

And the little GRANDDAUGHTER of the man who ordered Elia and her children killed. Agency! 

Ninja'd by Tianzi 

Also from the OP: Cersei being "strong" this season? She's down to one single kid and blames herself not listening to Jaime, a damn bonehead. Margaery  "strong"? She's cooling her heels in the Baelor Hotel. Women aren't "on top" this season on the show. The closest poor Fat Walda came to that was being on top of the menu at the Winterhell kennel. 

It's just tits and dragons and covers of EW now. 

I hope you know that McShane was referring to the ASoIAF/GoT overall as tits and dragons. If you think he was separating the two you are mistaken. 

[Marcus Agrippa]

Well, this is clickbait if I ever seen it. A show shouldn't be pushing any sort of agenda. Bad OP, BAD.

[Joan Jett]

54 minutes ago, Joy Hill said:

At this point, I'm just glad that Arianne did not make it to the show. She probably would have killed her own father and brother in the name of vengeance and female empowerment. 

 

[BlueNightzx]

This is a trolling clickbait
but i don't mind dancing to this insanity if its fun

the only strong woman, who was not a sociopath, who didn't need to hold a weapon or burn her enemies to show "guurl powah" was Olenna Tyrell, intelligence, influence, wisdom, this is what power looks like

as Tywin said "Do you think wearing a crown gives you power?"

Even melisandre was a powerful woman in her own right, the problem with today media, is that they think the only way to show powerful women is to put women to emulate the worst aspects of men and call that power

The sand Snakes have no true chance of holding dorne for much time, it was a senseless slaughter in name of petty emotions

at this point Dany will rule trough fear and force, even the so called worst, fat and drunken Robert ruled a long time (thanks to jon arryn in most parts) and was well loved by the common folk and nobles alike, he didn't promoted senseless killings, pardoned a lot of his enemies, even the greyjoys, winch helped the realm to heal
but i guess to the show standards he was a weak man, only if cersei was the ruler....

Brienne is a Bully and a brute, with no right whatsoever to going on delevering her brutal justice executing people in the name of Renly, who in his own right had no claim whatsoever to the IT

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

I hope you know that McShane was referring to the ASoIAF/GoT overall as tits and dragons. If you think he was separating the two you are mistaken. 

Since you are friends with Mr McShane and privy to his thoughts and all, can you tell us a bit more about his character's story this season?

 

[Prince of the North]

34 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

I hope you know that McShane was referring to the ASoIAF/GoT overall as tits and dragons. If you think he was separating the two you are mistaken. 

I would love to see some proof of this besides your interpretation.  You see, when I read the article in question, where McShane uttered those famous words, it seemed to me that he was talking in the context of the show.  This is because he was responding to people complaining to him about spoiling something that was going to happen in the show.

I very much doubt McShane's familiar with or has read ASoIaF so I very much doubt he was including them in his description of just being "tits and dragons".

[Tianzi]

I'm not so sure McShane even knows that the books exist...

15 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Even melisandre was a powerful woman in her own right, the problem with today media, is that they think the only way to show powerful women is to put women to emulate the worst aspects of men and call that power

Now, sexist.

15 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

at this point Dany will rule trough fear and force, even the so called worst, fat and drunken Robert ruled a long time (thanks to jon arryn in most parts) and was well loved by the common folk and nobles alike, he didn't promoted senseless killings, pardoned a lot of his enemies, even the greyjoys, winch helped the realm to heal
but i guess to the show standards he was a weak man, only if cersei was the ruler....

Robert was spending public money hedonistically and actually didn't really rule, just shat and others wiped, by his own charming words. (although recognizing that he was unfit to rule, and proceeding to delegate deserves some credit) Though, well, he was way better than Joffrey and Aerys, both men.

There are criminals and psyhopaths on both sides of the gender barrier and saying it's unique to the one, or that the one is emulating the other, is unfair. That said, the portrayal is problematic, as for ex. Dany's or Sand Snakes' brutality is fetishized, because #WomenOnTop.

[Neds Secret]

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Shae was absolutely depicted as a badass hooker with a heart of gold, managing to embody two stereotypes at one time.

She truly loves Tyrion, she truly cares and wishes to protect Sansa.  She carries a knife, threatens to use it several times and uses it on one of Cersei's spys.

She shows no ill effects of having been a camp follower, the lowest of the low on the sex worker level.

 

Shae was a joke of a character, a monkey with a keyboard could have written a female character that made more sense than Shae.

[BlueNightzx]

9 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I'm not so sure McShane even knows that the books exist...

Now, sexist.

Robert was spending public money hedonistically and actually didn't really rule, just shat and others wiped, by his own charming words. (although recognizing that he was unfit to rule, and proceeding to delegate deserves some credit) Though, well, he was way better than Joffrey and Aerys, both men.

There are criminals and psyhopaths on both sides of the gender barrier and saying it's unique to the one, or that the one is emulating the other, is unfair. That said, the portrayal is problematic, as for ex. Dany's or Sand Snakes' brutality is fetishized, because #WomenOnTop.

You're right, it was not my intention to portray as being one sided, Westeros had its share of bad male rulers, and in dorne they had their share of brilliant female rulers, if i'm not mistaken, it was a princess who stood against aegon and his sisters during the conquest,

and during the Rhoynar-Valyrian wars, when garin led his people to death and enslavement, Nymeria was wise to flee, and then wise enough to marry into dorne and make a new home to her people

there is a lot of real strong women in the books, Ellaria in the books,choosing to end the cycle of revenge and violence, to keep her famility together, and siding with doran, this is insight

 

My beef is that the show makes a mockery of women in positions of power., to them the only way to make a strong female character is to put her on a killing spree and belittling men 

[Tianzi]

3 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

You're right, it was not my intention to portray as being one sided, Westeros had its share of bad male rulers, and in dorne they hade their share of brilliant female rulers, if i'm not mistaken, it was a princess who stood against aegon and his sisters during the conquest,

and during the Rhoynar-Valyrian wars, when garin led his people to death and enslavement, Nymeria was wise to flee, and then wise enough to marry into dorne and make a new home to her people

there is a lot of real strong women in the books, Ellaria in the books,choosing to end the cycle of revenge and violence, to keep her famility together, and siding with doran, this is insight

 

My beef is that the show makes a mockery of women in positions of power.

They completely butchered Ellaria's wonderful character, removing those pesky, sissy characteristics like compassion or not approving of the cycle of violence... It's similar with the show's characterization of Brienne, I guess our girls have to macho up to work on-screen

Well, half of them, anyway. The rest has to womb up and tit up.

[Richard Writhen]

3 hours ago, Joan Jett said:

By killing his brother, nephew, and an innocent girl. Just what Oberyn would have wanted. 

Rediculous.