mattnj81

Summer not dead?

126 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Magjee said:

 

Kill the Summer, kill the Summer so that the Winter may be born! Winter is coming!!!

 

Here Winter, come here boy.

Personally dude, i do think your upset like all of us.

there is an explanation to the no body debacle.....summers dead- the nights king may have raised him....as a previous poster has said "summer is dead&here comes winter"

Just think in the next nights king&bran meeting,him showing bran his new pet zombie direwolf, the naming would be quite ironic, yin and yang like, 2 faces to the same person.

 

The only positive that has came from this death- only 2 direwolves left, ghost and nymeria, If they survive thats the new direwolf breeding stock! in a way it gives ghost legitimacy to be a alpha/ ruler...just like john if he is TPTWP! Two runts of the litter rising to the top! 

*drake started from the bottom* :-P

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1 hour ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Your comment was that Summer would go down like a soldier. My response was that Lady didn't.  

On the separate question of meaning, it's odd that you appreciate and anticipate no meaning in the Night King killing Bran's most important protector and companion, that you decline to recognize the importance of Bran being denied, by the actions of the Night King, of his only vessels for warging, and that you refuse to acknowledge the blindingly obvious symbolism of the harbinger of winter killing Summer.

Never said that, I said I didn't like the way it was done.  I always figured Summer would die my problem was with how he died.  6 skeletons killed him.  Wow, and it was almost instantly followed up with Hodor's death meaning eh wolf dead but duh duh duh .... Forget about the wolf because Hodor is now dead.  It should have happened differently and I bet it does in the books.  What you are failing to comprehend in this whole thing, is its not that they die it's how.  How is important.  

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1 hour ago, Blade of Sunlight said:

I don't think Summer will survive, I have no problem with that, but the way it was presented made his death useless, Hodor made a stand, Leaf made one of sorts, Summer was slaughtered in 10 seconds without killing anyone.

D&D clearly do not apriciate the Wolves, though to be honest it's hard to translate the warg connection to small screen, still if they are going to kill him just give him a better death, simply dying while holding back a WW instead of a bunch of wights would have been much better IMHO.

Comparing the show to the books, the Wolves are deeply symbolic, their deaths as well, Lady dies and shortly after we sense Sansa is disconnected from her family, siding with the Queen, Greywind's death is obviously symbolic of not only the death of Robb but also of the end of the Stark unity, the pack.

This is perfectly stated.  

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42 minutes ago, Neffaria said:

Way more pathetic. I'm sorry its just not fantastic writing. and by tommen Im assuming you mean joffrey? and by stabbed i think you mean beheaded?

Did mean Joffrey.  I never pictured Ned beheading Lady, I guess because I didn't think he would want to disfigure her.  I figured he would have cut her throat or something.  I looked back and it doesn't say exactly how he did it:

"Shortly, Jory brought him Ice.
When it was over, he said, "Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.""
I any case, your measure of pathetic seems quite different from mine, as well as different from any definition of the word "pathetic" of which I am aware.  Lady was killed for no reason at all, and her death accomplished nothing at all.  She didn't go down fighting but was tricked into following and killed by someone she believed cared for her. 
Summer died trying to save Bran.  He was fighting against the ultimate enemy of all humans.  
 

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32 minutes ago, SerJeremiahLouistark said:

Never said that, I said I didn't like the way it was done.  I always figured Summer would die my problem was with how he died.  6 skeletons killed him.  Wow, and it was almost instantly followed up with Hodor's death meaning eh wolf dead but duh duh duh .... Forget about the wolf because Hodor is now dead.  It should have happened differently and I bet it does in the books.  What you are failing to comprehend in this whole thing, is its not that they die it's how.  How is important.  

Your comment, on page 2, was "They hurt all the same but I guarantee you, the Umbers won't just plop Shaggy's head on a table.  He will have gone out a soldier. "

Let's not just start making things up.

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3 hours ago, Forlong the Fat said:

This is an interesting comment: "D&D have no regard for the importance of dire wolves." That suggests that GRRM does have regard for the importance of dire wolves?  But he killed Lady and banished Nymeria early in the first book.  Then he brutally killed Grey Wolf.  It's not as if killing dire wolves hasn't happened before.  Moreover, the killing of Lady was 100% senseless, and Grey Wolfe was simply slaughtered.

I don't get the reaction to the recent wolf deaths, and I don't expect Summer to come back any more than the wolves GRRM already killed. 

Thank you.

Also though I disagree to a point. I still think all the wolves deaths have meaning in both book and show (save shaggy, which we don't know about in books yet).

I just feel like people are sad they died, and that they didn't take out a few people before they died. If Summer or Grey Wind killed a few people then more people would be ok with it. Don't get me wrong I wish they did too but it doesn't change the significance or meaning for me anyway.

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1 hour ago, oconuur said:

The only positive that has came from this death- only 2 direwolves left, ghost and nymeria, If they survive thats the new direwolf breeding stock!

Ha! Reminds me of GRRM's original letter to his agent...Interesting thought.

Edited by ash

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Summer is goooone.

Reddit seems to be jumping on this as well. But this is confirmation that Shaggy is dead to. Theyre culling CGI budget. Theyve never really explored the relationship witht he wolves and the Starks and Bran is the only one who is shown to be capable of Warging.

In the show, they simply havent given them enough of a reason to live.

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Hes as dead as his brothers Greywind and Shaggydog. Rip

We need to have the money spent on those three fire breathing lizards instead.

Edited by Ruhail

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Best scenario might be that Bran warged into Summer immediately after letting Hodor hold the door.  ... and directed Summer to scram!

Alternatively, if Summer died and becomes a White, Bran can still warg into him and essentially spy on the Whites and/or lead them elsewhere - off Brans escape route. 

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33 minutes ago, Brandon Michael Farley said:

Best scenario might be that Bran warged into Summer immediately after letting Hodor hold the door.  ... and directed Summer to scram!

Alternatively, if Summer died and becomes a White, Bran can still warg into him and essentially spy on the Whites and/or lead them elsewhere - off Brans escape route. 

Ohh, I actually never thought of that second scenario before. That'd be cool. Though u would think if he could warg a wighted Summer he'd be able to just warg any old wight? Idk. 

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54 minutes ago, Brandon Michael Farley said:

Best scenario might be that Bran warged into Summer immediately after letting Hodor hold the door.  ... and directed Summer to scram!

Alternatively, if Summer died and becomes a White, Bran can still warg into him and essentially spy on the Whites and/or lead them elsewhere - off Brans escape route. 

We see Summer swamped with Skeletons, with very audible stabbing sounds and yelping immediately after Bran is on the sled and is still visibly warging Hodor. There is no best case scenario.

Theres no way were going to see a Behind Enemy Lines plot going on. For one, it would be a shitshow to implement and come across on screen. But it would also be, simply, cheap as hell.

Im also sure there would be a proviso for not Warging into the dead.

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5 hours ago, dbunting said:

You missed what he did then. They all stopped advancing to Bran because they had to kill Summer first. That bought Meera time to drag Bran away. Summer sacrificed himself to save Bran, how much more noble could it be?

Who are we to say they screwed it up? It's their story to tell, just because it doesn't match the version we have built up in our heads doesn't mean it's screwed up. You, me, and everyone other than GRRM have no idea what will happen with Summer, we are all guessing.

this is a perfect comment...and i completely agree

5 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

I hear you, and that's a fair criticism. But given all the suspension of belief in this show, "animal survives wounds" isn't that nutty. And I'll say again, just for the record, that we are shown the exact spot he died and there was no body.

I'm almost definitely wrong, I get that. It's just theory.

i suspect if we see him he will be a zombie wolf like the zombie horses etc...

3 hours ago, jandslegate said:

Unfortunately, he was hacked to pieces. Best case scenario he died protecting Bran and there was nothing left of him. Worst case is that he becomes another thrall for the WW's

i believe he might be a thrall but no collar on his neck... and we have seen that a wight can be good...think coldhands...so perhaps he can still help bran when he becomes the new night king ;)

 

1 hour ago, Brandon Michael Farley said:

Best scenario might be that Bran warged into Summer immediately after letting Hodor hold the door.  ... and directed Summer to scram!

Alternatively, if Summer died and becomes a White, Bran can still warg into him and essentially spy on the Whites and/or lead them elsewhere - off Brans escape route. 

if he can warg the dead ...great....but i don't think he will be able to...unless he is the new benevolent night king

:smoking:

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7 hours ago, mattnj81 said:

I would say again, for the record, that everything suggests Summer is in fact dead. It just struck me as odd that they showed the exact spot he died, but no body. So I'm just hoping it was a fake out, despite the fact that it's unlikely. That's all.

At that point there was no body because they reanimated Summer. There's gonna be a Ghost vs Summer fight in a later episode.

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2 hours ago, Misnthropia said:

We see Summer swamped with Skeletons, with very audible stabbing sounds and yelping immediately after Bran is on the sled and is still visibly warging Hodor. There is no best case scenario.

Agreed with this logic.

I think Summer died from fatal CGI-Expense Syndrome.

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The underlying theme of the show is Valar Morghulis.  At the Red Wedding, a pregnant woman was stabbed in her belly and then killed.  Caitlyn Stark begging for here kids life, has her throat slit.   

Here we have Ned Stark beheaded in season one and fans are miffed that dire wolves are getting killed.  

Wolves!  We are talking animals here, like the ones they kill and eat every day in Westeroos.

Just because these Wolves look cool and belong to Starks..

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Sure, he's dead. The real question is:

Can Bran warg wight-Summer (or skinchange wight-Hodor)?

Edited by hiemal

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About Nymeria I mentioned this partially in another thread but I read:

Spoiler

from 2 different spoiler sources that Nymeria and her pack returns this season. I also read that she and the pack at the end are returning to Winterfell with Arya leading them after she kills Walder. I'm not certain if the pack are also involved in killing Freys. 

Example:http://winteriscoming.net/2015/11/01/filming-not-done-in-riverrun-packs-of-wolves-spotted/

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The only way Summer survived is if he used the same trick Ramsay's hounds used to magically disappear in the first episode of this season when Brienne kicked ass and chewed bubble gum.  But the only way Summer could have learned this technique is if he actually met up with Ramsay's hounds, which seems very unlikely considering how the hounds were probably bred in the Dreadfort and Summer was never anywhere near this location.

Or was he?

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Unfortunately, as much as i also want Summer to be alive, he's gone. And I agree with OP saying that Summer wasn't given the send off a direwolf deserved. People are saying that he died protecting Bran, which is true, but it could've been done sooo much better. For example, we saw wights coming in through the ceiling. So as Bran, Meera and Hodor are running off, have Summer take out a few of those wights as they drop from the ceiling. Rip off their heads or limbs or something (he's a big wolf, he could do that). And then the white walker general comes in, sees the 3 people trying to escape and advances towards them. But before he can take more than a few steps, Summer attacks him. Trying to prevent him from getting to Bran. He swings his ice blade and makes contact with Summer and RIP sweet wolf. Then Meera lets out a scream in anguish and launches a dragon glass spear at the white walker and inadvertently kills (because she didn't know it was dragon glass). And then they escape

I think if it was done in that way or similar to that then fans would have been less pissed about it because he went down fighting and showed that direwolves are bad ass. They're supposed to be fearsome creatures but the show portrays them as weak puppies. The show made Ramsay's hounds more fearsome than most of the direwolves. We can only hope that they do more justice to Nymeria and Ghost. 

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