How much of the success of the show do you contribute to Benioff and Weiss

[Anton Martell]

On 21 août 2016 at 11:43 PM, Rex999 said:

 

They Deserve all of the credit because there would be no show had they not convinced Martin to do it. 

There would also be know Battle of Blackwater had they not begged HBO for extra money during the making of season 2 and had they never did Blackwater I doubt they would have done watchers on the wall or Battle of the bastards 

Another showerunner could  have easily went along with HBO's plan and cut the Battle of Blackwater from season 2

that one decision alone would have made GOT into a radically different show

The hard truth is some fans just don't know how good they have it

Just take a look at all of the other fantasy adaptions that have come before

1. Earthsea = a adaptation so bad that the author himself hated it

2. legend of the Seeker = a  awful adaptation  that barley resembled the book at all 

3. The Wheel of Time = a terrible pilot episode for this was released in 2015. thankfully the pilot failed and the books will be getting another adaption in a few years ( hopefully it will be done right next time)

4. The Shannara Chronicles = not as terrible as they others but it still takes the books and turns it into a show for teen girls.

fans of these great books got crappy low budget cash grabs while fans of "A song of Ice in fire" got a super popular award winning hit TV show. My sister was huge fan of the Earthsea books and she rolls her eyes every time she see's "A Song of Ice and Fire" fan complaining about how awful an a adaptation game of thrones is lol

D&D are not perfect but it is obvious that they have worked extremely hard to make the show the huge success it is today and for all of my complaints about the show I do not for one second doubt that D&D loves the source martial . They may not always succeed but at least they have tried to make it close to the books

The show runners of legend of the Seeker did not care that their show barley resembled the books at all nor did they even try to accurately adapt the books

. 

So because people fucked it up more we should be happy? It's the equivalent of you eating bad food, complaining about it and someone telling you: some people don't have food. Yes, it is right. And it's worse for them. That does not excuse shit. If the food is bad I can and will complain about it nonetheless, even if I can admit that some have it worse. As for your Blackwater argument, I think it proves a point about the criticism of D&D: they'll fight for the flashy things. But don't give a fuck about the long term. Exactly why Hardhome and Battle of Bastard are bad episodes for me. They were great battles, and well directed, but apart from those battle, they sucked. The directing cannot save everything. And again, making one great decision (the Blackwater one) doesn't excuse them from all the shitty ones they did (Sansa? Dorne? and so much more)

On 22 août 2016 at 0:29 AM, Dragon in the North said:

Those three haven't really done anything in the books, so I wouldn't consider those big changes.

 

Aegon has barely been introduced, to think that he won't do much is baseless. Same for the others. They are important characters that will have a huge importance in the next books. And you didn't pull my full quote about how they changed the characterization of other characters. Lastly, my lists were non exhaustive of course. You can't say the show is faithful when you see the Sansa Arc and Dorne's arc.

 

23 hours ago, Rex999 said:

This isn't even close to being true 

I thought Hillary and Trump were good at telling blatant lies but Anton Martell managed to top even them lol

The most acclaimed episodes were not written by GRRM

Here are the top episodes ranked on imdb       

 1. The Winds of Winter  

2.  Battle of the Bastards  

3, The Rains of Castamere  

4.  Hardhome    

5. The Door    

6.  The Lion and the Rose

7. The Laws of Gods and Men    

8. The Mountain and the Viper  

9.  Blackwater

Most of these episodes are written by D&D and Laws of Gods and Men was written by Bryan Cogman

P.S. if its so universally accepted that episodes written by GRRM are the most acclaimed.

Than why is The Bear and the Maiden Fair one of the worst rated episodes in the shows history. even "No one" did better with critics than Martin's Bear and the Maiden Fair episode did lol

Let's not exagerate at all and compare me to Trump. Real good comparison, completely accurate... As Meera pointed it your analysis is a bit too over the top as well. But I'll grant you that: I might have talked too fast. What I meant was that Martin's episode were often critically well received (like the Purple wedding one, who is written by him if I'm not mistaken, if I am I apologize then :p)

 

EDIT: strangely most of the top rated episodes have big battles, big twists or big flashy events, which will please the casual viewer, hence the good imdb rating in some way (plus great directing).

16 hours ago, Rhodan said:

I agree claiming Martin´s episodes are the best received ones is silly. But bringing the IMDB votes is showing the cardinal difference between the priorities of majority of show watchers and segment of those familiar with the books. I certainly enjoyed the last two episodes for their events and presentation/execution.Yet.. Events should not equal "quality" exactly and I just think that is how many viewers are seeing it. It´s their choice obviously, but my ears are still sometimes bleeding from the dialogue or the story. I still like the first four seasons, the 6 on the other hand, was the one I was bored most of the time and believe, yes, that a lot of producers could give us something better. 

I might have talked too fast when talking about GRRM, but I agree with your statement nonetheless

[Dragon in the North]

35 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

Aegon has barely been introduced, to think that he won't do much is baseless. Same for the others. They are important characters that will have a huge importance in the next books. 

It's also baseless to assume these characters will definitely be important in the books.

 

36 minutes ago, Anton Martell said:

 And you didn't pull my full quote about how they changed the characterization of other characters. Lastly, my lists were non exhaustive of course. You can't say the show is faithful when you see the Sansa Arc and Dorne's arc.

I didn't pull the rest of your quote because I agreed with it to a certain extent. I think Jaime's characterization was simply postponed and we'll see him pull away from Cersei in season 7. The show has diverged from the source material in a few areas, but I believe the show will move towards the same ending as the books and hit most of the major plot points.

[lancerman]

On August 21, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Anton Martell said:

Sorry, but you cannot say they are being faithful. They changed HUGE amounts of story. Wether that's good or not is another story. But you can't say they have been faithful to the books. They left out a lot of things (Lady Stoneheart, Aegon, Arianne Martell...), they changed the characterisation of a lot of characters (Jaime, Sansa, Ellaria Sand...). 

 

And your last sentence made me laugh: the best episodes were the one headed by D&D? You cannot be serious. It is universally accepted that episodes written by GRRM are the most acclaimed.

It's not "little things". They changed a LOT. They made a lot of nonsensical changes. Some of their decisions don't make sense if you think about it, even if you remove the books. And I do think that many other people could have made a better show. But we will never see it of course. 

You are right that book readers might be a little harsher than others. But we're not picking at the show because we are petty. We are criticizing the show because it became crap. I try to judge the show on its own merit, and damn it's still crappy. I don't care about some choices, and I understand some others. But when you analyze the show in itself without the books, it's still doesn't make sense, and it's still badly written.

Compare Jaws or Godfather to Thrones for faithfulness at this point LSH had two appearances. In a series this big, not huge. 

Currently if you went by the mainstream the best episodes are largely considered Battle of the Bastards, Winds of Winter, Hardhome, and Reigns of Castemere. Not all GRRM episodes. 

[Rhollo]

I certainly give D&D a lot of credit for the success of the show, because they managed to take a complex fantasy story and make a simplified version of it that is accessible and entertaining to a mainstream audience.

[RhaenysBee]

Of course they played a huge part in making GoT successful. Anybody who says otherwise is lying to themselves. Is there any other person on the face of earth who would have done a better job? We don't know, we will never know. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't . Could D&D have done a better job? Of course they could have done a better job. There is always better, just as there is always worse. That doesn't mean they didn't do a good job. 

[Firefae]

D&D simplified the show  to make it more accessible to non-fantasy fans. This worked pretty good in the in the first seasons. It's good that they changed some minor aspects like the ravens talking, people with coloured hair and those queer haircuts in Slaver's Bay. Don't think it would have worked in the show and may would have turned people off. So D&D did make the show succesfull for a broader audience

[Wendel Shoemaker]

It certainly comes down to the story GRRM created, but D&D as well as the entire production team have done a great job of picking the actors, setting the tone, creating the music, ect. It's hard to say if they were the only ones that could have done it, I haven't seen any other great films/shows by them so it's hard to say what specialty they brought to the show, and how much GRRM influenced them in the beginning.

I'll say we could have had someone do a better job of season 5 and 6 though.

[Neds Secret]

They managed to kill Olly, if only they had never created him, or any characters of their own, they all sucked and GRRM had enough brilliant characters for them to adapt without needing their own atrocities!

[Neds Secret]

On 13 July 2016 at 5:34 AM, Werthead said:

A slightly weird question. The TV show would not exist at all without them, and it's probable that the books would still be sitting unadapted if they hadn't picked up on them. So in that sense 100%.

For the actual quality of the show, George's story and characters are clearly the main draw. None of D&D's own characters or storylines have really been popular, and their highest-profile changes (faffing in Season 2, the Robb/Talisa romance and Dorne) have also largely been the most unpopular with both book readers and TV-only viewers. Season 6, where the mixing up of the two is far less clear, has been a major exception to that, but of course it remains to be seen how much of that material was based on George's notes and how much was 100% their invention.

My primary issues with D&D are them not more clearly determining on an early direction for the show and an end point, which has led to abandoned story threads and big problems with characterisation (taking Show Jaime in the same direction as Book Jaime and then abruptly 180ing and reversing him at least back some of the way along that arc is bizarre). There's also the lack of a solid thematic focus. This disparaged any literary quality of the books early on and that ended any chance of the show rising above the pulp fantasy elements to make more interesting comments about human nature as the books do. The TV show instead just makes very obvious comments about power and brutality without engaging in a deeper examination of what that means. From the same studio as Deadwood, The Wire and The Sopranos, that's pretty poor going.

But the previous point that it was highly probable the show would be awful and they have managed to keep it, at worst, watchable, and at best pretty damn good.

[MoreOrLess]

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 6:09 PM, JonSnow4President said:

Actually, I'm saying there's a fundamental difference in what the show seems to shoot for between earlier seasons.  Recently, it seems like they're going for the big fight and pouring all their resources into that.  Because of budget constraints, they had to have a different focus early on, and did have much more consistent characters and political intrigue that is simply nonexistent in later seasons.  The show changed from itself.  It's working for them financially, but artistically I think it has been an absolute and unmitigated failure. 

That's without touching their failure as adapters.  

Not sure I agree with that, you look at say season 2 and it very much builds towards Blackwater with all the stuff involving KL, Stannis and Renly.

Honestly I think the big issue is exactly that they've shifted things in terms of adaptation and a lot of readers do not want to see depth in material that they've invented. Last season for example the situation with the Starks trying to build up forces and having to deal with the politics of the Wildings, Mormonts and Glovers. On the reverse the Umbers not just joining Ramsay because Small jon is "evil" but because of the threat he considered the Wildings to be and indeed that he won't swear directly to him.

[Anton Martell]

On 5 septembre 2016 at 7:58 AM, RhaenysB said:

Of course they played a huge part in making GoT successful. Anybody who says otherwise is lying to themselves. Is there any other person on the face of earth who would have done a better job? We don't know, we will never know. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't . Could D&D have done a better job? Of course they could have done a better job. There is always better, just as there is always worse. That doesn't mean they didn't do a good job. 

The fact that there is better does not mean the didn't do a good job. That's true. The fact that they did an bad job is what means they did not do a good job. The show has a lot of flaws.

On 5 septembre 2016 at 2:16 PM, Firefae said:

D&D simplified the show  to make it more accessible to non-fantasy fans. This worked pretty good in the in the first seasons. It's good that they changed some minor aspects like the ravens talking, people with coloured hair and those queer haircuts in Slaver's Bay. Don't think it would have worked in the show and may would have turned people off. So D&D did make the show succesfull for a broader audience

So because they dumbed it down, they were successful? I guess if you only talk number yes, but qualitatively? I don't think so (even if the details you give are meaningless and I didn't mind they put them away).

[RhaenysBee]

11 hours ago, Anton Martell said:

The fact that there is better does not mean the didn't do a good job. That's true. The fact that they did an bad job is what means they did not do a good job. The show has a lot of flaws.

So because they dumbed it down, they were successful? I guess if you only talk number yes, but qualitatively? I don't think so (even if the details you give are meaningless and I didn't mind they put them away).

Yeah, it does (have a lot of flaws). That's hard to argue. 

The source material was in dire need of editing and simplification. The problem is not that they simplified it, more like how they did so. I did have a hardcore book fan phase myself and heavily criticized the show for changing great book lines and character appearances and events, but after I got over the fact that adaptation doesn't quite work like that, I was pretty open minded. The only thing I ever expected this show to do from season 3 on was to make sense in its own world and be consistent and faithful, not to the books, but to itself. Season 6 has been a complete fail in this regard. 

[JonSnow4President]

On 9/9/2016 at 5:57 AM, MoreOrLess said:

Not sure I agree with that, you look at say season 2 and it very much builds towards Blackwater with all the stuff involving KL, Stannis and Renly.

Honestly I think the big issue is exactly that they've shifted things in terms of adaptation and a lot of readers do not want to see depth in material that they've invented. Last season for example the situation with the Starks trying to build up forces and having to deal with the politics of the Wildings, Mormonts and Glovers. On the reverse the Umbers not just joining Ramsay because Small jon is "evil" but because of the threat he considered the Wildings to be and indeed that he won't swear directly to him.

It builds towards Blackwater, which was shot with a largely shoestring budget and creative directing and camera work to make a small amount of resources feel like a big event was going on.  However, that episode still is carried by the interaction of the characters, particularly within the city walls.  The focus, outside of the one shot with the exploding wildfire, is not on the spectacle, but on how the characters are dealing with the circumstances around them.

Politics of the Wildlings?  You mean they instantly come over because they think Jon is a God, and the Starks do nothing?  (Given Jon's actions for the Wildlings prior to this death, I don't think they need to justify why they follow Jon).  Politics of the Mormonts?  You mean where Dumb! Jon and Dumb! Sansa can barely string 2 words together, and need Davos to bring the little girl around?  Politics of the Glovers, where the Starks don't really deal with anything?  Or are you talking about where all the Northern Lords decide to name as King the revenant who is arguably breaking his Night's Watch vows who led his forces in a brief battle that should be called "Tactics 101: How to Lose a Battle While Inflicting Minimal Casualties on the Opposing Forces," for no apparent reason whatsoever?  

It's not just that it's crap compared to the books.  IT FAILS TO STAND UP ON ITS OWN.  When adaptational deviations stand up on their own, I'm fine with them (particularly if they aren't removing something all that impactful).  But Game of Thrones continually bends, breaks, and tramples on the established rules of their own universe.  Game of Thrones has it's original characters and/or original storylines behave/unfold in ways that make no sense whatsoever, to the point where people are theorizing that the thing they just spent an episode watching isn't even the character we've been watching.  I've given up on seeing something resembling A Song of Ice and Fire on screen.  But Game of Thrones has displayed an astonishing capability to burst right through rock bottom and keep on going, all the while being praised as the best drama ever.  

And I am constantly amazed at the people that are so desperate for the show that they love to make sense, they perform the most complicated mental gymnastics to explain the unexplainable.  (All of Arya's second half of the season, Jon's actions this season, Sansa's actions this season, Dany's actions this season, the end results of Cersei and the Sand Snakes coups, many of the Northern Lords' actions [particularly Umber's], etc.). I literally laughed so hard I had to pause the movie at multiple times throughout the episode, either because a character did something so random (I laughed when they stabbed Doran, or when Theon decided he needed to be in a new plot now) or something was so "wtf?" that I couldn't believe someone wrote that for a non-comedy ("smells like pussy," Arya's parkour).  

They have been outstandingly successful at printing money and appealing to the lowest common denominator.  Maybe I was fooled into thinking it was an intelligent drama early on.  But the story is a spectacular failure, that is actually becoming more entertaining to watch the worse it gets, sort of like a train wreck or an accident in racing.  

[MoreOrLess]

2 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

It builds towards Blackwater, which was shot with a largely shoestring budget and creative directing and camera work to make a small amount of resources feel like a big event was going on.  However, that episode still is carried by the interaction of the characters, particularly within the city walls.  The focus, outside of the one shot with the exploding wildfire, is not on the spectacle, but on how the characters are dealing with the circumstances around them.

Politics of the Wildlings?  You mean they instantly come over because they think Jon is a God, and the Starks do nothing?  (Given Jon's actions for the Wildlings prior to this death, I don't think they need to justify why they follow Jon).  Politics of the Mormonts?  You mean where Dumb! Jon and Dumb! Sansa can barely string 2 words together, and need Davos to bring the little girl around?  Politics of the Glovers, where the Starks don't really deal with anything?  Or are you talking about where all the Northern Lords decide to name as King the revenant who is arguably breaking his Night's Watch vows who led his forces in a brief battle that should be called "Tactics 101: How to Lose a Battle While Inflicting Minimal Casualties on the Opposing Forces," for no apparent reason whatsoever?  

It's not just that it's crap compared to the books.  IT FAILS TO STAND UP ON ITS OWN.  When adaptational deviations stand up on their own, I'm fine with them (particularly if they aren't removing something all that impactful).  But Game of Thrones continually bends, breaks, and tramples on the established rules of their own universe.  Game of Thrones has it's original characters and/or original storylines behave/unfold in ways that make no sense whatsoever, to the point where people are theorizing that the thing they just spent an episode watching isn't even the character we've been watching.  I've given up on seeing something resembling A Song of Ice and Fire on screen.  But Game of Thrones has displayed an astonishing capability to burst right through rock bottom and keep on going, all the while being praised as the best drama ever.  

And I am constantly amazed at the people that are so desperate for the show that they love to make sense, they perform the most complicated mental gymnastics to explain the unexplainable.  (All of Arya's second half of the season, Jon's actions this season, Sansa's actions this season, Dany's actions this season, the end results of Cersei and the Sand Snakes coups, many of the Northern Lords' actions [particularly Umber's], etc.). I literally laughed so hard I had to pause the movie at multiple times throughout the episode, either because a character did something so random (I laughed when they stabbed Doran, or when Theon decided he needed to be in a new plot now) or something was so "wtf?" that I couldn't believe someone wrote that for a non-comedy ("smells like pussy," Arya's parkour).  

They have been outstandingly successful at printing money and appealing to the lowest common denominator.  Maybe I was fooled into thinking it was an intelligent drama early on.  But the story is a spectacular failure, that is actually becoming more entertaining to watch the worse it gets, sort of like a train wreck or an accident in racing.  

As you say the politics of the Wildings was building on previous events in that they trusted Jon but also there support was earned by a judgement of the situation and selling fighting the Boltons as there only real option.

The reaction of the Northern houses for me is a classic case of people not wanting to see anything but direct adaptation and decrying anything else as unrealistic nonsense. That nobody wants to stand up purely for Sansa's claim given the loses of the previous war, her marrying into two enemy houses and in general very grim prospects of success isn't really unrealistic to me. That the Mormonts living further north and having had the current Lady's father as Lord Commander believe enough in the threat of the Dead/Walkers to sign up also isn't unrealistic to me.

[Meera of Tarth]

8 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

 

And I am constantly amazed at the people that are so desperate for the show that they love to make sense, they perform the most complicated mental gymnastics to explain the unexplainable.  (All of Arya's second half of the season, Jon's actions this season, Sansa's actions this season, Dany's actions this season, the end results of Cersei and the Sand Snakes coups, many of the Northern Lords' actions [particularly Umber's], etc.). I literally laughed so hard I had to pause the movie at multiple times throughout the episode, either because a character did something so random (I laughed when they stabbed Doran, or when Theon decided he needed to be in a new plot now) or something was so "wtf?" that I couldn't believe someone wrote that for a non-comedy ("smells like pussy," Arya's parkour).  

 

I also thought that Doran's murder was written in comedic terms. Doran's actor was great acting but like in a drama, while Ellaria's comment was the last straw, like if she was in a comedy. Everything very confusing.

And I'm sad for Trystane, but I laughed there, a lot. That was like a very bad comedy scene. Like if children wanted to recreate the "essence" of Pulp Fiction.

[JonSnow4President]

9 hours ago, MoreOrLess said:

As you say the politics of the Wildings was building on previous events in that they trusted Jon but also there support was earned by a judgement of the situation and selling fighting the Boltons as there only real option.

The reaction of the Northern houses for me is a classic case of people not wanting to see anything but direct adaptation and decrying anything else as unrealistic nonsense. That nobody wants to stand up purely for Sansa's claim given the loses of the previous war, her marrying into two enemy houses and in general very grim prospects of success isn't really unrealistic to me. That the Mormonts living further north and having had the current Lady's father as Lord Commander believe enough in the threat of the Dead/Walkers to sign up also isn't unrealistic to me.

My point isn't that the Northern Lords behaved irrationally (although they're forgetting about what Bolton did to their families at the Red Wedding, which given the vengeful nature the show loves to pound, is odd).  It's that the Stark's didn't overcome it.  Jon and Sansa are idiots that are incapable of convincing a single person, incapable of communicating with each other to maximize their chance of victory, and incapable of sticking to a battle plan.  Simply put, the alternative story the show puts forth stinks worse than the compost facility I had to inventory for work a few years ago.  And sadly, I find the Northern storyline one of the least problematic as a standalone this past season.  (Ignoring books, Jaime's is the best of the season IMO, but I can't get over the heavyhanded use of Bran solely as an exposition device to give it to that storyline).  

[MoreOrLess]

22 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

My point isn't that the Northern Lords behaved irrationally (although they're forgetting about what Bolton did to their families at the Red Wedding, which given the vengeful nature the show loves to pound, is odd).  It's that the Stark's didn't overcome it.  Jon and Sansa are idiots that are incapable of convincing a single person, incapable of communicating with each other to maximize their chance of victory, and incapable of sticking to a battle plan.  Simply put, the alternative story the show puts forth stinks worse than the compost facility I had to inventory for work a few years ago.  And sadly, I find the Northern storyline one of the least problematic as a standalone this past season.  (Ignoring books, Jaime's is the best of the season IMO, but I can't get over the heavyhanded use of Bran solely as an exposition device to give it to that storyline).  

Why do Jon and Sansa have to show total political and tactical mastery? Jon has never really had to deal much with politics, pretty much all his success up until now has come via bravey and a strong sense of honour.. That's obviously what wins over the Wildings and its also ultimately what Davos sells to the Mormonts, Davos who has unlike the two Stark children extensive experience at looking to build up alliences under Stannis.

What experience Sansa has is mostly of backhanded plotting via Littlefinger and in the personal knowledge she has of the personalites of many of the Starks enemies, both of which we see her show.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Early on 10% D&D, 90% Martin. Now it's about 60-40 Martin. D&D did themselves a huge favor with Hardhome And Battle of the Bastards. Even though the director of those episodes is the real star. D&D are still on solid footing because of that in my book.

[MoreOrLess]

Honestly I think if one area has dropped off since season 4 its the consistency of the dialog, theres still plenty of good stuff but I think you can also detect the odd scene that's rather perfunctory in pushing the plot along, probably the result of the increased workload with the greater differences relative to the books as well as the scale of the production.

[Eddy1]

D&D deserve credit for getting the ball rolling, although arguably they should have waited until all the books have been written. They've been good producers, but these guys are not particularly good writers. They did a decent job of adapting and streamlining the source material during the first few series, but unfortunately they are woefully unqualified to be writing episodes now that the source material has been surpassed. Much of the content created by D&D has been nonsensical and riddled with plot holes. They should have been aware of their own limitations and brought in better writers for this stage of the story.