Noble Lothar Frey

Craster is a Stark

129 posts in this topic

On 12/3/2016 at 8:34 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

There is something special about Craster's bloodline because the Others accepted his boys.  Many wildlings would gladly make that sacrifice to satisfy the Others and keep them away and yet the Others do not accept their sacrifice.  There would be no need for the wildlings to flee if they can keep the Others happy with the gift of an occasional baby boy.  So the baby's bloodline is clearly important.  The Others do not want just any male baby.

The Night's King was a Stark.  The female Other sought him out.  Why him in particular?  Because of his bloodline.  If the first white walkers were created from Stark stock, it would help explain why.  Only a Stark can be converted to a white walker.  The blood has to be compatible. 

 

I agree.  Craster's bloodline is special to the White Walkers.  The pale woman chose to mate with the commander of the Nights Watch, who was a Stark.  Why that particular commander and not the one before or after?  What's so special about this guy?  He was a Stark.   He was genetically compatible.  I suspect they had a few offsprings and some got away when the NK was taken down.  The Starks and the White Walkers are connected.  Together, they represent ICE in the story.

On 12/3/2016 at 8:34 PM, Lame Lothar Frey said:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

If that's trying, then the Targ line must also come to an end (for real this time). The dragons and the Others go out together.

Not really.  The quarrel between the Others and the First Men have nothing to do with the Valyrians nor the Andals. 

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12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Not really.  The quarrel between the Others and the First Men have nothing to do with the Valyrians nor the Andals. 

Okay, if you say so. 

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On 12/26/2016 at 9:25 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I agree.  Craster's bloodline is special to the White Walkers.  The pale woman chose to mate with the commander of the Nights Watch, who was a Stark.  Why that particular commander and not the one before or after?  What's so special about this guy?  He was a Stark.   He was genetically compatible.  I suspect they had a few offsprings and some got away when the NK was taken down.  The Starks and the White Walkers are connected.  Together, they represent ICE in the story.

 

As much as I find the Starks very boring I don't think they will all perish.  The boundary between ice and fire will be redrawn at the Neck.  What is now the north will become a frozen kingdom and the Starks will side with the Others.  Perhaps they will becomes white walkers themselves. 

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I always wondered if he was a bastard of Bloodraven. 

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On 12/4/2016 at 6:14 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

The Starks are the "ice" side of the equation and while it may appear for the moment that they will side with man, it could go the other way.  I suspect they have an ancient relationship with the white walkers in much the same way that the Targaryens have bonds with their dragons.  Just as the Targaryens used dragons to further their political ambitions, it would be a fitting parallel if the Starks somehow made a deal with the Others to win dominance over the north.  Anyway back to your theory.  Yeah, if the original white walkers were made from Stark males it is reasonable to assume that only compatible stock can be "turned" to an Other.  And only males.  Since there are no shortages of Wildlings stock available why would Craster's baby boys have significant value.  Answer, because Craster and the Starks share the same bloodline.  Craster is a Stark. 

It would make sense that they share the same genes. 

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Craster isn't a stark.

He's bloodraven's son. Therefore he has kingsblood in him, which is why the WW take his babies because kingsblood has power.

 

That baby-swap with mance's son/gilly's son will make things worse because Mel will burn gilly's baby who has kings/Targaryen blood....and will have a very powerful output

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1 hour ago, Falcon2909 said:

That baby-swap with mance's son/gilly's son will make things worse because Mel will burn gilly's baby who has kings/Targaryen blood....and will have a very powerful output

Very powerful? If your theory is true, that baby is the great grandson of a king through a bastard line, how weak is kingsblood allowed to get? If it's literally a single ancester, I reckon every single character has it, considering all those petty kingdoms there used to be. Even if it's just with Targaryens, some of them really got around.

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7 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Very powerful? If your theory is true, that baby is the great grandson of a king through a bastard line, how weak is kingsblood allowed to get? If it's literally a single ancester, I reckon every single character has it, considering all those petty kingdoms there used to be. Even if it's just with Targaryens, some of them really got around.

If Craster is Bloodraven's son, you would have to take into account the inbreeding of both the Targaryen and Craster lines. The baby doesn't have a single Targ ancestor in the usual sense, because the blood has been kept concentrated through incest.

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The white walkers would have no use for a "fire" baby.  Fire is incompatible with ice.  There is a much, much greater chance that Craster is a Stark.  

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

 The baby doesn't have a single Targ ancestor in the usual sense, because the blood has been kept concentrated through incest.

Gilly is the daughter and wife of Craster. Though Gilly doesn't have any targ ancestors, craster does and when he spent his seed inside her, some of that dragonblood went into Gilly's baby

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On 12/4/2016 at 6:02 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Craster is more likely a Hoare. (Black blood references usually point to House Hoare) Stark blood isn't special: every Northern house has some. But Hoare blood? That's the good stuff.

Remember that Harren the Black's brother was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? I really don't think GRRM threw that in for no reason.

I agree with this, I would also like to point out that Theon has Hoare blood and Bran is trying to get him to the weirwood tree 

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

If Craster is Bloodraven's son, you would have to take into account the inbreeding of both the Targaryen and Craster lines. The baby doesn't have a single Targ ancestor in the usual sense, because the blood has been kept concentrated through incest.

Well ok, because he's "Craster blood" on both side, he's the equivalent of a grandson. But Bloodraven's mum wasn't a Targ, she was a Blackwood, and there wouldn't have been a Targ for Bloodraven to impregnate north of the wall, would they? It's well acknowledged that Aegon 4 alone had countless children, so there must be so much king's blood from him alone.

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

If Craster is Bloodraven's son, you would have to take into account the inbreeding of both the Targaryen and Craster lines. The baby doesn't have a single Targ ancestor in the usual sense, because the blood has been kept concentrated through incest.

So Craster's is the song of ice and fire?  Not sure you meant to go that far but i'm not buying anything special about Craster or the baby.

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Three people have now assumed that I am putting forward this Craster / Bloodraven theory. Let me recap where this began and perhaps clarify what I meant to convey. For one thing, Falcon2909 seems to be taking issue with my point:

4 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Gilly is the daughter and wife of Craster. Though Gilly doesn't have any targ ancestors, craster does and when he spent his seed inside her, some of that dragonblood went into Gilly's baby

if Gilly is the biological daughter of Craster, doesn't she have all of the same Targ ancestors he has? What am I missing here? And I assume that she is the daughter of one of his older daughter-wives. So the blood line has been kept concentrated because Craster always marries within his family.

Also, you are the person who started this line of discussion about Craster as Bloodraven's son:

16 hours ago, Falcon2909 said:

Craster isn't a stark.

He's bloodraven's son. Therefore he has kingsblood in him, which is why the WW take his babies because kingsblood has power.

If you believe that Bloodraven is Craster's father, and Craster is Gilly's father/husband, then Gilly and her baby would have all the same Targ ancestors that Craster and Bloodraven have.

Mankytoes replied to your assertion, but said that Gilly's son's kingsblood would be weak because the baby is a great-grandson of a king through a bastard line. So my point was directed at the statement by Mankytoes. I'm saying that the bloodline is not diluted with each generation because Craster is always "marrying" people from the same bloodline.

2 hours ago, mankytoes said:

Well ok, because he's "Craster blood" on both side, he's the equivalent of a grandson. But Bloodraven's mum wasn't a Targ, she was a Blackwood, and there wouldn't have been a Targ for Bloodraven to impregnate north of the wall, would they? It's well acknowledged that Aegon 4 alone had countless children, so there must be so much king's blood from him alone.

Ok, if the theory is true that Bloodraven is Craster's father, it is unlikely that Craster could have more Targaryen blood than Bloodraven has. But as easily as Bloodraven fathered Craster, there may have been a sister or cousin fathered by Bloodraven who became Craster's first wife.

Also, I firmly believe that Good Queen Alysanne had one or two babies outside of her marriage with King Jahaerys. I suspect that she flew north to give birth and left the babies with northern or riverland families to be raised among high-born people. Look in the world book for the specific references to the periods of separation in the marriage of Alysanne and Jahaerys. There could be one or two northern nobles with Targaryen blood from Alysanne and her unknown lover. It's speculative, I admit, but if one of the babies grew up to be a Blackwood or married into the line, maybe Bloodraven's mother did have some Targaryen heritage.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

So Craster's is the song of ice and fire?  Not sure you meant to go that far but i'm not buying anything special about Craster or the baby.

Address your comments to Falcon2909 who launched this Bloodraven / Craster theory. I'm more of the Craster = Stark line of thinking. I am interested in the alternative theory, but not yet persuaded.

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Posted (edited)

On 05/12/2016 at 6:44 PM, Black Crow said:

 

“He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold he does, and of late it comes more often. That’s why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for it. Only now the sheep are gone too. Next it will be dogs, till…”

She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.

“What gods?” Jon was remembering they’d seen no boys in Craster’s keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.

“The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”

And Craster is a godly man who keeps right with his gods. Given that the other free folk [and the rangers] know what's going on but conspicuously don't come visiting with pitchforks, flaming torches, etc. I'm inclined to see Craster as something akin to a sin-eater. He is despised, but tolerated and even indulged because through giving up his sons, their own are safe and when the cold winds rise the white shadows don't come knocking on their doors.

Craster defining himself as a "godly man" is fascinating in itself. How seriously does he take his "religion"? Clearly enough to sacrifice his sons, but is he doing this as tribute to his dieties or is it simply for self preservation? That his daughters and wives also refer to the "Cold Gods" with a fearful respect makes me wonder how pious they were too. Gilly and her sisters certainly seemed to fear the idea of the white cold coming to take their babies. 

The idea of Craster being the Free Folk's sin eater is also pretty cool. We know Mance Rayder visited the Keep but other Wildlings seemed to be a rarity.

It's odd that one of the more "evil" wildlings like Varamys Sixskins never raided Craster's Keep, as far as we know. We see that Varamyr liked to go through a bit of a mummer's farce by having his shadowcat "deliver" women to slake his lusts upon, which is strange considering there's a hovel full of apparently meek women and their elderly abuser, the location of which which is assumedly publicly knowledge to the Free Folk, yet we get no mention of Varamyr visiting Gilly and her sisters.

The tradition of "stealing a wife" is an integral part of the Free Folk's culture, one would think some charmer like The Weeper or Lord O' Bones might view Craster's Keep as some kind of cookie jar, yet we get no hint as such during any Jon/Sam POV.  I suppose a Wildling raider might prefer some grizzled warrior women as opposed to one who has never left the vicinity of her hovel, but as we have seen, not all Free Folk have the same motivations. 

So what is it at Craster's Keep that "wards" off all the potential raiders and such? Craster was able to keep a heard of sheep before he had to sacrifice them. Think how long would said sheep have fed a Wildling raider, how Craster's throne and fireplace would feel to someone who had been out in the cold, and yet we hear no such stories of any Free Folk attempting to take Craster's Keep for their own.

 

 @Noble Lothar Frey and @Seams  - If the Keep was indeed to be a breeding ground for future White Walkers/potential sacrifices then it's worth noting the hovel's proximity to the Wall. It might seem unwise for the Cold Gods to have this "cradle" so close to the Night's Watch, considering the Crows did eventually started passing through regularly. What do you think about the magic of the Wall being somehow important to whatever process goes on with Craster's sons? 

If Craster has Stark blood, and Bran built the Wall, could the powers contained within this "hinge" somehow allow for Craster's wives to have easier pregnancies? Or perhaps the Others somehow use the magic of the Wall to assimilate the boys into their race. There must be some reason for the Keep's open location, far from the Lands of Always Winter, other than the obvious "Craster can spy on the Watch".

Edited by Leo of House Cartel

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On 12/26/2016 at 9:25 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I agree.  Craster's bloodline is special to the White Walkers.  The pale woman chose to mate with the commander of the Nights Watch, who was a Stark.  Why that particular commander and not the one before or after?  What's so special about this guy?  He was a Stark.   He was genetically compatible.  I suspect they had a few offsprings and some got away when the NK was taken down.  The Starks and the White Walkers are connected.  Together, they represent ICE in the story.

 

Yes.  Craster is a Stark.  That's why his kids were desired by the white walkers.  Genetic compatibility.

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On 10/7/2017 at 5:00 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

Yes.  Craster is a Stark.  That's why his kids were desired by the white walkers.  Genetic compatibility.

Or more likely, the white walkers are Starks.

Just as dragons are fire made flesh, the walkers are ice made flesh.

We know that the Targaryens have a bond with dragons and that at least some of them believed they could become dragons.

Switch to the other side and look again at the Varamyr prologue. The souls of wargs can body-hop or skinchange, moving from one host to another until their own body dies, at which point the soul is trapped either in the current host or the most dominant host. It remains there either until that host dies or until the soul fades and is absorbed into the host soul. 

But what if there is a get out clause. The walkers are not a race but GRRM has told us they are held together by magic. They have been created. Are they therefore artificial bodies, ice made flesh, created to provide near immortal bodies for the souls of the old Stark lords?

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On 10/7/2017 at 0:00 PM, Wolf's Bane said:

Yes.  Craster is a Stark.  That's why his kids were desired by the white walkers.  Genetic compatibility.

 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Or more likely, the white walkers are Starks.

Just as dragons are fire made flesh, the walkers are ice made flesh.

We know that the Targaryens have a bond with dragons and that at least some of them believed they could become dragons.

Switch to the other side and look again at the Varamyr prologue. The souls of wargs can body-hop or skinchange, moving from one host to another until their own body dies, at which point the soul is trapped either in the current host or the most dominant host. It remains there either until that host dies or until the soul fades and is absorbed into the host soul. 

But what if there is a get out clause. The walkers are not a race but GRRM has told us they are held together by magic. They have been created. Are they therefore artificial bodies, ice made flesh, created to provide near immortal bodies for the souls of the old Stark lords?

White Walkers are Starks.  Craster is a Stark.  They share DNA.  That makes Craster's children potential new recruits for Ice. 

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