Who is more to blame for Robert's legacy? Robert or Cersei?

[devilish]

Human nature is the one to blame

Rickard shouldn’t have forced Lyanna to marry Robert. Rhaegar shouldn’t have been forced to marry Elia. Rhaegar shouldn’t have given this crazy prophecy too much importance. Aerys should have discussed things with Rickard instead of burning him alive. Both were fathers to children who went way out of their control so they could sympathise with one another. Aerys could forgive Rickard (and Brandon) if Rickard and Brandon could forgive Rhaegar.

Robert shouldn’t have been forced to accept the crown or marry somebody he didn’t liked and he should have never hated Danny or Viserys because they were ultimately innocent. Tywin should have never killed Rhaegar’s children, Cersei should have never betrayed her husband, both Robert and Cersei should have raised better kids and Ned should have never pushed the lioness to the ropes.

In Robert and Cersei you have two people, with an average IQ trying to fit in a role that wasn't appropriate to them in the first place. 

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, rocksniffer said:

your superficial reading of the facts limits your ability to understand that the events set in motion, which you blame robert and cersei for began years before their actual marriage. you say she wanted to marry robert however this is a quote from the wiki..

without this marriage the alliance would have broken down and robert would have had to immediately go to war with the richest, strongest house in westeros...

cersei wanted power to be sure but the marriage was doomed from the beginning, i submit that neither had the will to make it work. However it was Tywin who was responsible for "winning" the rebellion because without his duplicity the gates wold have remained closed and the sack of KL would have failed.

you say robert had a choice i again point to the quote because he also knew he had to solidify his alliance with the Lannisters...what choice did he have exactly?

you claim robert would have cared...i say why? his position was secure as was hers until the interference by jon arryn. because he was king the children's parentage was a non-issue...after arryn's death cersei became convinced she had no alternative but use cunning to save herself and kids...she had always been convinced that she was considered weak because she was a woman...i refer you again to the wiki to confirm this. once robert had appointed ned as new hand, cersei's way forward began to come into focus, she realizes that to have real power she needs for Joff to be king, she had no way of knowing that his true nature when robbed of a father's influence would result in his own death

ned proceeded to do the same investigation to prove kids were illegitimate, and to me this is his greatest folly. even if his goal was to "save" roberts dignity, and or find jon's killer (and he was never even close to doing that, since he was so distracted by his personal quest he failed to see the truth of lysa's betrayal)... he had the opportunity to work with the queen to help her secure the future for her children. he didn't, ned's self-righteous attitude caused the series of events that resulted in his friend's death, the death of his household in KL and ultimately his own death...which led to all the deadly events that followed

the people responsible were Tywin for setting events in motion, but ultimately it was jon arryn and ned stark who laid the final stones on the grave of the realm...none can dispute that there were many opportunities for each man to control the situation...but honor, and self-righteousness prevented them from seeing the big picture...as varys pointed out to ned in the cell

 

and finally i never said either cersei or joffrey could have been made "good people" but they could have been controlled and robert, jon, ned, would be alive...and all the death that followed could have been averted

 

Again Robert did NOT have to marry Cersei this is used to justify him not taking responsibility for his action and not being a husband when he willingly stepped into that role. Robert was the king when that match was proposed, he was the most powerful man in the country yet you're honestly going to try and tell me he was forced into a marriage?  

Also Tywin took action first to show his loyalty to Robert. Robert did not need to marry into House Lannister, when Tywin laid the dead bodies of Rhaegar's children at his feet he bent the knee to Robert. 

And of course Robert would have cared that the children he thought was his wasn't. Robert is as proud as any other great lord, Cersei cuckolding him would have been a hit to ego and a mark against the crown and House Baratheon he wasn't going to suffer that slight, no man would. 

Please stop trying to act like Cersei isn't a paranoid, power hungry, hateful mess by the time we meet her in AGOT. Ned andArryn would both be dead even trying to work with Cersei. Cersei would be distrustful of them both and think that they stood in the way of HER throne. And Joffery is a uncontrollable timebomb in the making. So no, no amount of working with Cersei and Joffery would have done anybody any good especially not Arryn or Ned. 

[ravenous reader]

54 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Robert did not need to marry into House Lannister, when Tywin laid the dead bodies of Rhaegar's children at his feet he bent the knee to Robert. 

Robert not holding Tywin accountable for the murder of the Targaryen children is the cardinal sin from which all else followed.  Of course, without Tywin's support, both financial and political, he would not have had an easy time trying to hold the kingdom together and rule it.  And you see, I've concluded that's Robert's primary motivation -- namely, to maximise his ease and correspondingly minimize his discomfort -- at all costs.  For the lives of those children, he gained his power -- essentially selling himself into Tywin's hands, rendering himself paradoxically powerless.  Which leads us to ask -- was the rebellion worth it?

[Protagoras]

If I have to choose, I would say Robert is slightly more to blame, but it is close.

Robert is to blame for the bankruptcy, the lack of interest in ruling, the and is in general a shadow of his former self. He is an idiot and a drunk, has in the past allowed and indirectly approved the murder of children, has no interest or ability in his role as the chief judicial power in Westeros, is a bad husband and is lazy and never listen. He let the small council run amok and did nothing to check some of its members dubious loyalties. In addition, he was shitty friend to Ned and dealt with both Cersei and Joffrey with violence. His kingship was a complete joke and only looks good in comparison to Aegon IV, Aerys II and Baelor and his tragic backstory I call bullshit on - his "love" of Lyanna is a lie he has made up in his mind about his "perfect woman", idolizing her while spending time with other women... your hearts desire, yeah right. He is also partly to blame for (not) raising Joffrey. Of course he learned from mommy when his "dad" neglected him. Basically, everything about him is shit. He is the kind of person really big losers call "A real man" because they lack a brain and common sense.

Cersei is to blame for the infidelity and the lion´s share of the problems in their marriage. She's a awful, self-centered, shallow person with arrogance and pettyness to follow. Her standard response is always violence and she discards anyone the moment she doesn´t need them anymore. Also, she got zero right to complain that Robert want to have sex with her. She owes her husband his marital rights. She is queen (with the benefits that entrails) so she could produce hiers and not only does she refuse to do, she also have the audacity to deny Robert her body, which is nothing but a complete breach of agreement. Marriages comes with "must do´s" and those just can´t be ignored just cause you had a change of heart. Cersei fucked Jaime on her wedding day and later passed Jaimes kids on as Roberts heirs - that was her idea of doing her duty, in addition to doing few efforts to work with him (Granted - Robert didn´t try either). In short, Robert was payed with false coin and I am very much on the side of those who think that those selling their soul to the devil (to take a classical example) should be forced to pay up, not dodging the bullet by saying "Trading with souls is wrong in the first place! (insert moralistic rant here)". Agreement beats consent. Always. Rumpelstilskin was right!

In a way they deserved each other. Neither part tries to make a working deal with the other and neither do a good job in their position. Robert do comes off better in the relationship - Robert did say Lyannas name on the very evening of their marriage (granted, not a good start), and Cersei hates him from then on. It think it´s obvious that she gave up on him from the get-go, basically, when they were little more than strangers to one another. Robert did some trying, like inviting her to hunts, to have some kind of relationship yet Cersei seems to lack ANY desire to have any kind intersubjectivity and common ground. I don't think any case of conscience, nor any improvement in Robert's own behavior, would have led to any real change BUT Robert is king. He is the one with power and the one most in need of a working relationship. Therefore he by default has a larger responsibilty.

[Lion of the West]

EDITE: Changed my mind.

[black_hart]

Robert.

Even only dismissing Varys + making Jaime change White for Black cloak would have changed a lot of subsequent history.

[Black Dragons]

I am going said that beginning it was Robert, but I heard that she cheat with Jamie on her wedding day. After her and Robert visited his family mother home. House Estermont she find out that he was sleeping with his cousin that when she decide that she going have all her babies with Jamie. Yes I know early in their marriage she got pregnant for Robert, but got rid of it.  I think it also Cersi's fault Jamie, Lysa and Littlefinger why this mess happen.

[Black Dragons]

On 2/3/2017 at 1:15 PM, ravenous reader said:

Robert not holding Tywin accountable for the murder of the Targaryen children is the cardinal sin from which all else followed.  Of course, without Tywin's support, both financial and political, he would not have had an easy time trying to hold the kingdom together and rule it.  And you see, I've concluded that's Robert's primary motivation -- namely, to maximise his ease and correspondingly minimize his discomfort -- at all costs.  For the lives of those children, he gained his power -- essentially selling himself into Tywin's hands, rendering himself paradoxically powerless.  Which leads us to ask -- was the rebellion worth it?

When asking Robert if the rebellion was worth I believe in killing Rheagar yes, but winning crown no!

[A Ghost of Someone]

An observation about Robert that stands out among many is that he is not a liar. He is blunt but forthright. Cersei on the other hand is a liar and then some.

 

I often wonder how different things would be if Robert had married someone other than Cersei.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Although my original OP was not open to it but I also think Jon Arryn was incompetent as the debt creeped up on him more than Robert persay. That and apparently LF was creeping up on and getting it on with his wife as well. Just a thought.

[theblackdragonI]

On 03/02/2017 at 4:27 AM, rocksniffer said:

sometimes shit just happens...cersei and robert were forced into marriage, when both desired another...who can blame them for pursuing their passions...even though one could say both were at fault i say neither had any control over what occurred and thus can't be blamed...

many have built a case to blame tywin lannister...if he had let his daughter and son marry as the targaryens had, his house would have been guaranteed a golden future but his antagonism toward the Mad King cost him his heir...and then using his daughter as a political tool further made him in part responsible for current circumstances...this is a valid argument, but i do not support it because he was a single-minded man who could only see a narrow path to ensure his legacy...an honorable goal, even if achieved by less than honorable means...

i blame jon arryn and ned stark...both men forced the issue of the legitimacy of the heirs to the throne while it was really not important...robert was not interested in who fathered joff just that ned help him be a good king...if ned had seized the opportunity to be regent to joff, he might have been able to turn the tide of psychotic behavior nurtured by the more than psychotic queen...by trying to disenfranchise cersei and the heirs, they demonstrated a lack of foresight...they should have each ignored the parentage of the children and worked instead to win her loyalty...they would still be drawing breath today and wielding power...the entire game would have been changed...

yeah i stand by this...jon and ned the do-gooders who fucked the realm by pressing a chain of events that plunged westeros into a devastating and tragic war...

varys was right he was the only one serving the realm...

How did neither of them had any control? Cersei wanted to be queen more than anything else, she was even happy on her wedding day. Meanwhile Robert as @The Wolves pointed out was the newly anointed king. He could have married any woman in the realm, or not married at all. He wasn't forced into anything, he chose to marry for the good of the realm, it did help that Cersei was attractive and brought the best dowry though.

It's 80% Cersei's fault, 20% Robert's. All she had to do was suck it up and give him trueborn sons. Instead she went deliberately out of her way to not give him heirs, continued sleeping with her brothers (do you seriously think Tywin should have let them and have his prestigious line tainted with incest?) and killed Robert at a time of chaos. She allowed her father and brother to wage a war against the rightful heirs to the throne and allowed a maniac to preside over the throne. Yeah Robert wasn't a great father, or king, but it wasn't his fault his wife was a lunatic, incestous hag.

If Robert found out about the twincest, he wouldn't have hesitated to execute Cersei, Jaime, probably exile the children and if Tywin rebels he'd bring the full might of a unified Westeros down on him. Averting TWot5K, probably remarrying Margaery and having a safe line of succession. There's no way in hell that Ned and Jon should have kept it to themselves and served Cersei, she and Joffrey are f*cking maniacs. 

Varys isn't serving shit. If he was in it for the good of the realm he wouldn't have orchestrated the bloodiest war in a century when Robert had ruled for 15 years of peace. 

Edit: That got more heated than I expected.. Robert did his fair share to ruin the marriage, but in a feudal society Cersei still owed him everything and above all loyalty. From a modern perspective sure Robert was the shittiest of shit husbands/fathers, but for the setting he's not that bad. Definitely a worse king. So to sum up, Robert's not great, Cersei's worse and their legacy is the worst.

[The Fresh PtwP]

57 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

An observation about Robert that stands out among many is that he is not a liar. He is blunt but forthright. Cersei on the other hand is a liar and then some.

 

I often wonder how different things would be if Robert had married someone other than Cersei.

This is my biggest issue when discussing Robert and Cersei. I could see Robert marrying someone post-Lyanna and having it work. Cersei on the other hand has a track record of ruining men. Jaime, Robert, Joffery and Lancel she is pretty much toxic. It was not going to work with who ever she ended up with.

And yet...(puts crown on) the majority of the blame has to fall on Robert, he was the king. He chose to marry Cersei, he chose (through inaction) to give the Lannisters a powerful presence at court, he chose to pardon Varys, LF, Pycelle and Jaime. He was the one in power, but I will caveat he is the much better person despite his flaws.

[Joey Crows]

Realistically, Cersei gets the blame for not holding it together. But, historically, Robert gets the blame for revolting and then dying without putting a solid successor into place. 

If you just look at the narrative of the story then Cersei is at fault for having the chance to hold power and continue the new age, but not being able to maintain that (although, maybe she does?). 

But historians will look at this as a blip, when someone (Robert) revolted, won power, then soon died without a plan in place to keep power in his line.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

This is my biggest issue when discussing Robert and Cersei. I could see Robert marrying someone post-Lyanna and having it work. Cersei on the other hand has a track record of ruining men. Jaime, Robert, Joffery and Lancel she is pretty much toxic. It was not going to work with who ever she ended up with.

And yet...(puts crown on) the majority of the blame has to fall on Robert, he was the king. He chose to marry Cersei, he chose (through inaction) to give the Lannisters a powerful presence at court, he chose to pardon Varys, LF, Pycelle and Jaime. He was the one in power, but I will caveat he is the much better person despite his flaws.

Yes, I think because he trusted Jon Arryn's advice and now we know that Jon was an old fool. Robert was an 18 year old warrior who had to fight for his life after having done nothing wrong other than be the guy that Lyanna was betrothed to and his head was called for.

 To the defence of Robert and Jon Arryn for that matter, Cersei was/ is a special kind of wicked that Westeros, since the iron throne was forged, never experienced before. Her father and their wealth made her an attractive bride and her beauty was added to that. What was lurking beneath the surface though, no one could predict was/ is nothing but evil. She and Jaime killed her trueborn to be child by Robert because she wanted inbred Lannisters to inherit, shrouded as Baratheons. Tens of thousands ended up and are still dying because of it. Guest Rights broken at Winterfell to cover it, murder, infanticide with Robert's bastards etc. The evil she has brought to Westeros is seemingly endless. Robert was not blameless, in fact there really are almost no absolutes but Cersei was is a curse.

[Sigella]

On 3 februari 2017 at 4:04 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Considering the State of Westeros through ADWD, it is a disaster that has befallen the continent. Robert Baratheon and his allies won the rebellion in his name and he reigned for approx 15 years. The crown has huge debts but more importantly, his Queen who despised him before they even married was cuckholding him with her own twin brother and brought into the world, 3 children that are incest bastards. The discovery of their true lineage ignited the wars that now engulf Westeros. Who should be more at blame for this, Robert or Cersei? It is understandable that both share some blame but who should get the most?

Robert, as king, had a greater responsibility for the realm. Cersei was nothing without him backing her shit. She certainly has a personal responsibility for her own actions, but so far as the bigger picture goes - its on Robert ultimately.

[A Ghost of Someone]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Robert, as king, had a greater responsibility for the realm. Cersei was nothing without him backing her shit. She certainly has a personal responsibility for her own actions, but so far as the bigger picture goes - its on Robert ultimately.

Yes and no. He is not blameless but he was dealt an evil woman for a wife that did practically the unthinkable

[Sigella]

18 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Yes and no. He is not blameless but he was dealt an evil woman for a wife that did practically the unthinkable

If he was just the next guy you'd be right but since he's the king it was his duty to get himself a new queen in such circumstances. And he should have known...  Since two Hands, Stannis, LF and Varys all knew I'd say its quite the accomplishment for a king to stay ignorant.

[Orphalesion]

On 03/02/2017 at 4:44 AM, Praetor Xyn said:

If he wouldn't have been such a bitch where Cersei was concerned Lady would still be alive and Joffrey wouldn't be such a retchid little shit but I can't think of anything else he's responsible for.

Oh definitely one of the most disgusting things about Robert is how weak he is and how he allows Cersei to carry his balls around in her purse. 

Well he is to blame for being a self-pitying, drunken, passive mess in a position that calls for strength and level headedness. He has a responsibility and a duty and he shirks both because some girl died.  It was his incompetence that left the crown at the mercy of the Lannisters.

Of course being married to a hollow casket filled with all the vileness of the universe (aka Cersei) can't be fun and I know he made some attempts at building a family with her in the beginning (inviting her to go hunting, trying to bring Mya to court as a companion to Joffrey), but the only pathetic attempts he made at actually taking charge in his home life constituted of hitting his wife/child and then backing off anyway, because "dealing with Cersei would be hard maaaaan" after all she might... *shudder*.... she might complain! Loudly!

Cersei is responsible for failing to do her job as a queen (in every way, as her envy of Margaery proofs) and her duty as a wife (sorry to phrase it that way, it's a medieval society, divorce among nobles is nigh impossible and continuing the royal bloodline is a big deal and since that is her job, it doesn't matter whether she likes Robert or whether he called her Lyanna on their wedding night)  and lady of the hall.

Robert is responsible for failing his duty as king, husband, father, head of the household and man.

The clusterfuck with Stannis and Renly is his fault as well. I can understand liking Renly better than Stannis (Renly was obviously closer in character and interests to Robert), but Storm's End was Stannis' by right. He should have left Dragon Stone the moment Joffrey was born. If he hadn't denied the Stormlands to Stannis I wager he might not be such a colossal stick-in-the-mud, Renly would be his heir anyways (since Shireen's a girl) and the realm would have been a lot more stable by the end of Robert's reign.

Also if he was ineffective at dealing with his wife and children, then ship Cersei off to Dragonstone and have Joffrey fostered out, maybe even with Ned. Problem solved. Again, Cersei could have done nothing about that, only complain, which would be difficult to hear across the sea all he way from Dragonstone. Or rebuild Summerhall for her and telling her, saying that, since she finds the city so unhealthy, she shoudl be happy to leave it for greener pastures. From then on they only have to meet a few times a year and her having children with Jaime would be cosniderably more difficult to hide.

Of course there's the question of how much of Joffrey's....unique...character...was nurture (both Cersei messing him up and Robert neglecting him, there's an argument to be made about how many of the things he did might have originated from a desire to proof himself worthy of his father) or nature (due to being the child of siblings).

[SFDanny]

On 2/2/2017 at 7:04 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Considering the State of Westeros through ADWD, it is a disaster that has befallen the continent. Robert Baratheon and his allies won the rebellion in his name and he reigned for approx 15 years. The crown has huge debts but more importantly, his Queen who despised him before they even married was cuckholding him with her own twin brother and brought into the world, 3 children that are incest bastards. The discovery of their true lineage ignited the wars that now engulf Westeros. Who should be more at blame for this, Robert or Cersei? It is understandable that both share some blame but who should get the most?

Who is more responsible for Robert's "legacy"? Robert is responsible for his choices. Not Cersei. He was a horrible king. The best thing he did was to delegate most of his responsibilities to Jon Arryn and then to Ned. Every time he throws a temper tantrum and tries to impose his will he does so in a destructive manner to the detriment of the realm. His is a legacy of selfish incompetence. The only thing he did well, besides drinking himself into a stupor and trying to fuck everything that moved, was as a general, not as a king. Most of that was done previous to his becoming  a king. As bad a king as Aerys? Close.

Who is more responsible for the War of the Five Kings? Obviously Cersei. Robert's only immediate contribution is to ignore Ned's pleas about the Lannisters, and then to die too early. Cersei murders Robert, and bungles her way into near defeat. If she takes hold of her son, and uses Ned instead of allowing Joff to kill him, then she has a good possibility of stopping Robb in his tracks. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Who is more responsible for Robert's "legacy"? Robert is responsible for his choices. Not Cersei. He was a horrible king. The best thing he did was to delegate most of his responsibilities to Jon Arryn and then to Ned. Every time he throws a temper tantrum and tries to impose his will he does so in a destructive manner to the detriment of the realm. His is a legacy of selfish incompetence. The only thing he did well, besides drinking himself into a stupor and trying to fuck everything that moved, was as a general, not as a king. Most of that was done previous to his becoming  a king. As bad a king as Aerys? Close.

Who is more responsible for the War of the Five Kings? Obviously Cersei. Robert's only immediate contribution is to ignore Ned's pleas about the Lannisters, and then to die too early. Cersei murders Robert, and bungles her way into near defeat. If she takes hold of her son, and uses Ned instead of allowing Joff to kill him, then she has a good possibility of stopping Robb in his tracks. 

Robert sat by while the realm got more in debt and in particular, a large part of it to Tywin Lannister. Jon Arryn was not as good a hand as one would think. However, if Cersei had not killed her and Robert's child before it was born and she did not incest mate with Jaime to produce the 3 Golden Bastards, the realm would most likely be together now and there would not have been a War of the 5 Kings. That was Cersei's more than Robert's fault right there.