SoftSpot

ASOIAF becoming a GOOD VS BAD story

50 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Which is why they're going around murdering tons of people who pose no threat to them?

GRRM has included plenty of bad guys in this story that are more or less pure evil, so I don't think the Others will represent that big a change.

GRRM doesn't do pure evil "Dark Lord" characters like the Great Other. There are pure evil characters, yes, but I've never read anything else he's ever done that ended like Lord of the Rings, so I very much doubt this series will end in a cataclysmic battle between light and darkness.

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45 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

GRRM doesn't do pure evil "Dark Lord" characters like the Great Other. There are pure evil characters, yes, but I've never read anything else he's ever done that ended like Lord of the Rings, so I very much doubt this series will end in a cataclysmic battle between light and darkness.

Oversimplified lotro fan yep. That was not even the ending of the Lord of the Rings books. But having said that Sauron started off as a Maiar, not pure evil either. We don't learn much about them in the Lord of the Rings other than he really wants to dominate the world, much like Tywin.

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3 minutes ago, Whitering said:

Oversimplified lotro fan yep. That was not even the ending of the Lord of the Rings books. But having said that Sauron started off as a Maiar, not pure evil either. We don't learn much about them in the Lord of the Rings other than he really wants to dominate the world, much like Tywin.

He's said this series was inspired by Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, where it sort of seemed like light versus darkness, until

Spoiler

it was revealed that Inaluki's initial motivations were to fight against the destruction of the Sithi by man.

I'm not saying there won't be a final battle. I don't expect there to be one at present but if there is it will be awful, because at heart GRRM is an anti-war hippie who grew up during the Vietnam war.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Others were something created by the CotF to fight against the First Men, as that seems like a strong parallel to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, but with a twist.

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I have been sure the Others were built by the Children since Bran showed up at the cave, looked like pure fiction to me, to keep Bran and Co from leaving, and also certain other things. I assume they are eco terrorists (the Others I mean).

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11 hours ago, Whitering said:

I have been sure the Others were built by the Children since Bran showed up at the cave, looked like pure fiction to me, to keep Bran and Co from leaving, and also certain other things. I assume they are eco terrorists (the Others I mean).

I just can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong.

Spoiler

The show did this plot well, IMO, but I just don't see it in ASOIAF. 

While I'm torn a hundred different ways from Sunday on the various theories involving the WWs this one I feel is the furthest from the truth. 

A super weapon gone bad may seem legit but I don't think it's that simple. Especially when we have giants, zombies, squirrel-elves, dragons, Gryphons, raptors, unicorns, extinct version of giants, stone people, ancient people, deep ones, Chinese inspire god kings, krakens and lizzardlions, and many many more that I can't think of off the top of my head. 

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, Whitering said:

I have been sure the Others were built by the Children since Bran showed up at the cave, looked like pure fiction to me, to keep Bran and Co from leaving, and also certain other things. I assume they are eco terrorists (the Others I mean).

 

6 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

I just can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong.

Same for me. IMHO, it is not consistent with the WoIaF book. Where the Others seem to be the servant/demons of the Night God (Lion of Night).

The CotF have their place in the puzzle. But I can't guess which one for now.

ETA:  To keep on subject.
The Others are bad for business. No doubt about that.
But I feel they are the salvation force prohibiting excessive wrongness by some humans.
Excessive themselves, probably. But I believe they are not "as evil as they look".

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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I really hope it don't end with a Good vs Evil struggle. But I have faith in that GRRM won't let it come to that.

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I think the Others can be a threat to the cast while getting their own development. The fact that so many of the characters are "gray" and willing to put their own interests ahead of the good of others means that it's not going to be a clear-cut "we have to work together against a common foe" situation. 

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2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I really hope it don't end with a Good vs Evil struggle. But I have faith in that GRRM won't let it come to that.

Even if it did there is enough themes in ASOIAF to compensate. With that said I doubt it will though. 

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6 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Even if it did there is enough themes in ASOIAF to compensate. With that said I doubt it will though. 

I agree there's to much goodies in Asoiaf to let go of it, but even so a bad ending would be a downer. But like you said, it probably won't end so.

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On 2/3/2017 at 5:23 AM, SoftSpot said:

However, all the novels are building up to a finale where there are some obviously BAD/BLACK agents - i.e. the Others - who are PURE EVIL coming down to destroy the world of men, who may be better or worse but once assessed against the Others, are clearly the GOOD guys most of us is going to root for.

Except the novels are not building to a Others vs Good Guys finale. There will be no resistance. The last novel will end when the sun rises for the last time, sets moments later, and doesn't rise again for years. And it's not that the "good guys" are going to lose the battle, there simply won't BE a battle.

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On 3/3/2017 at 9:33 PM, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

I just can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong.

I only watched s1 of the show and don't pay attention to anything anyone mentions from it. It always struck me that there was more to the story

1) 100 obsidian daggers, ect... per year sounds more like a stipulation from a peace treaty than gift from friends.

2) There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, we'll get back to this

3) The Last Hero finds the CotF and the war for the Dawn ends. We aren't given the idea that the war continued by the good guys finally turned the tide, we are simply told the war ended upon the Last Hero finding the CotF.

That doesn't track in any way unless the CotF controlled the Others. If you accept that the Last Hero was a Stark, then there must always be a Stark in Winterfell could also be part of a peace treaty.

The scene at the cave made it seem as though it was meant to keep them there afterwards, because Summer can just run around outside, but Jojen, Meera and Bran believe that they will be attacked if they try to leave the cave.

There's a few other things sprinkled around the books, but those are the major points. The other thing being the destruction of Hardhome, I am quite positive the CotF were responsible for that. The Wall was built for them on one side and humans on the other. Likely the original treaty between the First Men and the CotF was being violated which kicked off the War for the Dawn, the CotF fighting via proxy.

Hardhome was destroyed as it violated the peace treaty, which likely included no human settlements beyond the Wall.

That's my operating theory, I know you don't agree, but I thought I'd lay it out. I am totally prepared to be proven wrong, but only by GRRM.

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Very little is known about the Others and their Origins.

I remember reading an interview of GRRM in which he explained that they were inspired by the legends of the Sidhe of celtic culture. The Sidhe are essentialy kind of like elves (not those of TLOTR, the fairylike ones) as they are playful and mischievious and magical by nature. However in celtic culture it was also pointed out that parents systematically warned their children from approaching them and their lairs not because they might get pranked but because despite their pleasant fairylike appearance and playful behaviour they are not benevolent entities of nature. The Sidhe are inhuman beings and it is stressed that as such it is difficult or even impossible to understand their motivations or values. The point being that they are unpredictable and many stories explain how an innocent and seemingly harmless act (to a human) could cause their ire which usually resulted in a terrible and truly "inhumanly" cruel punishment.

I think the Others are not pure evil but like the Sidhe they are alien entities, which do not feel or perceive the world in the same way humans do. And as such it may be that the very existence of humans is a threat, or just an incredibly bothersome annoyance to them because of things that humans cannot even feel themselves. It may be that life and in particular human life or the human consciousness is producing emmissions that are extremely negative to the Others one way or another. I could imagine them having been driven mad by said emmission thus explaining their war on the intelligent species of Westeros during the Dawn Age? Age of Heroes? I don't remember exactly how it's called. They may just want some peace and quiet, very badly that is :).

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On 2/3/2017 at 8:23 AM, SoftSpot said:

The success of ASOIAF novels has been IMO greatly due to the "grayness" of their charatcters. As GM said himself:

 

It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at.

 

However, all the novels are building up to a finale where there are some obviously BAD/BLACK agents - i.e. the Others - who are PURE EVIL coming down to destroy the world of men, who may be better or worse but once assessed against the Others, are clearly the GOOD guys most of us is going to root for.

 

Aren't you afraid that ultimately the last novels will lose all of their nuances and cleverly described inner morality concerns, only to become just a great battle of BAD GUYS vs HUMANITY?

 

How is GM going to manage the situation the books have been building up to in a way that's not obvious and caricatural?

 

Don't you think this will be the greatest challenge while writing the next books?

 

It only appears to be Man vs. the Others.  The actual battles will take place in the human heart.  The humans have everything they need to stop the WW if only each of the main characters will choose to do the right thing.  Samwell may have to sacrifice Gillie Flower to create Valyrian Steel.  He should be able to make this choice because it is his responsibility as a man of the night watch but his love for Gillie might prevent him.  Gendry may have to stick a sword in Arya's heart.  He may not be strong enough to do so and end up causing more grief.

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What do you mean by GOOD and EVIL?

The Others may have perfectly valid reason to kill humans, raise them as zombies and kill them again. But they are still going to be seen as evil by the humans. Does that make them good or bad? It depends. Like how certain common people say Robb Stark as a bad guy even though for the greater narrative he is a good guy but for the common guy who is affected by his war he is one of the bad guys. 

Something which might be morally acceptable for the Others might not be morally acceptable for the humans. Martin is writing the conflict between them and also the internal conflict of our heroes. If you call it good vs bad then it is good vs bad.

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On 26.3.2017 at 0:49 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The humans have everything they need to stop the WW if only each of the main characters will choose to do the right thing.  Samwell may have to sacrifice Gillie Flower to create Valyrian Steel.  He should be able to make this choice because it is his responsibility as a man of the night watch but his love for Gillie might prevent him.  Gendry may have to stick a sword in Arya's heart.  He may not be strong enough to do so and end up causing more grief.

Agree with the first sentence, but I'm a bit baffeled why you are so convinced that every hero will just have to kill a girl. You seem a liiitle over-enthusiastic about Nissa Nissa. Especially a tertiary character having to kill main character badass assassin Arya as a sacrifice?? No, thanks.

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On 06/02/2017 at 9:08 PM, SuperMario said:

I believe GRRM himself has said the Others are very misunderstood. I don't think they are this great evil that people south of the wall have made them out to be, and they, like almost everyone else in the series, are more gray than you think.

He has also said the CoTF are "not Elves" (somehow, despite clearly being Elves) and that Willas Tyrell will be "important".

It would be very hard to excuse the massive genocide the Others are committing, and the fact that they are using the corpses of their victims to make more foot soldiers.

On 02/03/2017 at 6:27 PM, Whitering said:

Oversimplified lotro fan yep. That was not even the ending of the Lord of the Rings books. But having said that Sauron started off as a Maiar, not pure evil either. We don't learn much about them in the Lord of the Rings other than he really wants to dominate the world, much like Tywin.

^ This. The Dark Lord trope isn't automatically bad only because a quote by GRRM said so. And it doesn't necessarily conflict with the idea of the Human heart being in conflict with itself (which is all over the LoTR).

The trope is bad in the way it was misused by hordes of talent-less and/or inexperienced dimestore writers who tried to copy Tolkien. 

Sauron started out with the wish to bring order to the world and genuinely thought that his (or earlier, Morgoth's) leadership would benefit everybody.

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On 4/14/2017 at 2:16 PM, Orphalesion said:

He has also said the CoTF are "not Elves" (somehow, despite clearly being Elves) and that Willas Tyrell will be "important".

It would be very hard to excuse the massive genocide the Others are committing, and the fact that they are using the corpses of their victims to make more foot soldiers.

^ This. The Dark Lord trope isn't automatically bad only because a quote by GRRM said so. And it doesn't necessarily conflict with the idea of the Human heart being in conflict with itself (which is all over the LoTR).

The trope is bad in the way it was misused by hordes of talent-less and/or inexperienced dimestore writers who tried to copy Tolkien. 

Sauron started out with the wish to bring order to the world and genuinely thought that his (or earlier, Morgoth's) leadership would benefit everybody.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say Sauron ever wanted to do good for the world, I mean, Morgoth was selfish in the extreme from day 1. Still, if Tolkien had done some PoV characters, as it were, from the Easterlings or the Orcs, I don't think people would be so quick to write it off is a good v bad story.

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On 14.4.2017 at 11:16 PM, Orphalesion said:

Sauron started out with the wish to bring order to the world and genuinely thought that his (or earlier, Morgoth's) leadership would benefit everybody.

hm... Sauron was a maiar following Aule (just like Saruman) before he supported Morgoth. But IIRC we know nothing about Saurons motives for supporting Morgoth. When we first see him in the story (in Tol Sirion), I would say he certainly had no "good" motives and wishes left.

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On 4/14/2017 at 5:16 PM, Orphalesion said:

He has also said the CoTF are "not Elves" (somehow, despite clearly being Elves) and that Willas Tyrell will be "important".

It would be very hard to excuse the massive genocide the Others are committing, and the fact that they are using the corpses of their victims to make more foot soldiers.

 

There are a lot of alive Wildlings for the Others to be committing genocide on them. I think the Wildlings would already before wiped out if the Others wanted it considering how strong they are. Frankly it seems to me is that they are simply pushing them South although to what point and purpose I am unsure of.

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