SoftSpot

ASOIAF becoming a GOOD VS BAD story

33 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Which is why they're going around murdering tons of people who pose no threat to them?

GRRM has included plenty of bad guys in this story that are more or less pure evil, so I don't think the Others will represent that big a change.

GRRM doesn't do pure evil "Dark Lord" characters like the Great Other. There are pure evil characters, yes, but I've never read anything else he's ever done that ended like Lord of the Rings, so I very much doubt this series will end in a cataclysmic battle between light and darkness.

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45 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

GRRM doesn't do pure evil "Dark Lord" characters like the Great Other. There are pure evil characters, yes, but I've never read anything else he's ever done that ended like Lord of the Rings, so I very much doubt this series will end in a cataclysmic battle between light and darkness.

Oversimplified lotro fan yep. That was not even the ending of the Lord of the Rings books. But having said that Sauron started off as a Maiar, not pure evil either. We don't learn much about them in the Lord of the Rings other than he really wants to dominate the world, much like Tywin.

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3 minutes ago, Whitering said:

Oversimplified lotro fan yep. That was not even the ending of the Lord of the Rings books. But having said that Sauron started off as a Maiar, not pure evil either. We don't learn much about them in the Lord of the Rings other than he really wants to dominate the world, much like Tywin.

He's said this series was inspired by Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, where it sort of seemed like light versus darkness, until

Spoiler

it was revealed that Inaluki's initial motivations were to fight against the destruction of the Sithi by man.

I'm not saying there won't be a final battle. I don't expect there to be one at present but if there is it will be awful, because at heart GRRM is an anti-war hippie who grew up during the Vietnam war.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Others were something created by the CotF to fight against the First Men, as that seems like a strong parallel to Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, but with a twist.

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I have been sure the Others were built by the Children since Bran showed up at the cave, looked like pure fiction to me, to keep Bran and Co from leaving, and also certain other things. I assume they are eco terrorists (the Others I mean).

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11 hours ago, Whitering said:

I have been sure the Others were built by the Children since Bran showed up at the cave, looked like pure fiction to me, to keep Bran and Co from leaving, and also certain other things. I assume they are eco terrorists (the Others I mean).

I just can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong.

Spoiler

The show did this plot well, IMO, but I just don't see it in ASOIAF. 

While I'm torn a hundred different ways from Sunday on the various theories involving the WWs this one I feel is the furthest from the truth. 

A super weapon gone bad may seem legit but I don't think it's that simple. Especially when we have giants, zombies, squirrel-elves, dragons, Gryphons, raptors, unicorns, extinct version of giants, stone people, ancient people, deep ones, Chinese inspire god kings, krakens and lizzardlions, and many many more that I can't think of off the top of my head. 

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, Whitering said:

I have been sure the Others were built by the Children since Bran showed up at the cave, looked like pure fiction to me, to keep Bran and Co from leaving, and also certain other things. I assume they are eco terrorists (the Others I mean).

 

6 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

I just can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong.

Same for me. IMHO, it is not consistent with the WoIaF book. Where the Others seem to be the servant/demons of the Night God (Lion of Night).

The CotF have their place in the puzzle. But I can't guess which one for now.

ETA:  To keep on subject.
The Others are bad for business. No doubt about that.
But I feel they are the salvation force prohibiting excessive wrongness by some humans.
Excessive themselves, probably. But I believe they are not "as evil as they look".

Edited by BalerionTheCat

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I really hope it don't end with a Good vs Evil struggle. But I have faith in that GRRM won't let it come to that.

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I think the Others can be a threat to the cast while getting their own development. The fact that so many of the characters are "gray" and willing to put their own interests ahead of the good of others means that it's not going to be a clear-cut "we have to work together against a common foe" situation. 

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2 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I really hope it don't end with a Good vs Evil struggle. But I have faith in that GRRM won't let it come to that.

Even if it did there is enough themes in ASOIAF to compensate. With that said I doubt it will though. 

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6 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

Even if it did there is enough themes in ASOIAF to compensate. With that said I doubt it will though. 

I agree there's to much goodies in Asoiaf to let go of it, but even so a bad ending would be a downer. But like you said, it probably won't end so.

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On 2/3/2017 at 5:23 AM, SoftSpot said:

However, all the novels are building up to a finale where there are some obviously BAD/BLACK agents - i.e. the Others - who are PURE EVIL coming down to destroy the world of men, who may be better or worse but once assessed against the Others, are clearly the GOOD guys most of us is going to root for.

Except the novels are not building to a Others vs Good Guys finale. There will be no resistance. The last novel will end when the sun rises for the last time, sets moments later, and doesn't rise again for years. And it's not that the "good guys" are going to lose the battle, there simply won't BE a battle.

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On 3/3/2017 at 9:33 PM, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

I just can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong.

I only watched s1 of the show and don't pay attention to anything anyone mentions from it. It always struck me that there was more to the story

1) 100 obsidian daggers, ect... per year sounds more like a stipulation from a peace treaty than gift from friends.

2) There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, we'll get back to this

3) The Last Hero finds the CotF and the war for the Dawn ends. We aren't given the idea that the war continued by the good guys finally turned the tide, we are simply told the war ended upon the Last Hero finding the CotF.

That doesn't track in any way unless the CotF controlled the Others. If you accept that the Last Hero was a Stark, then there must always be a Stark in Winterfell could also be part of a peace treaty.

The scene at the cave made it seem as though it was meant to keep them there afterwards, because Summer can just run around outside, but Jojen, Meera and Bran believe that they will be attacked if they try to leave the cave.

There's a few other things sprinkled around the books, but those are the major points. The other thing being the destruction of Hardhome, I am quite positive the CotF were responsible for that. The Wall was built for them on one side and humans on the other. Likely the original treaty between the First Men and the CotF was being violated which kicked off the War for the Dawn, the CotF fighting via proxy.

Hardhome was destroyed as it violated the peace treaty, which likely included no human settlements beyond the Wall.

That's my operating theory, I know you don't agree, but I thought I'd lay it out. I am totally prepared to be proven wrong, but only by GRRM.

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Very little is known about the Others and their Origins.

I remember reading an interview of GRRM in which he explained that they were inspired by the legends of the Sidhe of celtic culture. The Sidhe are essentialy kind of like elves (not those of TLOTR, the fairylike ones) as they are playful and mischievious and magical by nature. However in celtic culture it was also pointed out that parents systematically warned their children from approaching them and their lairs not because they might get pranked but because despite their pleasant fairylike appearance and playful behaviour they are not benevolent entities of nature. The Sidhe are inhuman beings and it is stressed that as such it is difficult or even impossible to understand their motivations or values. The point being that they are unpredictable and many stories explain how an innocent and seemingly harmless act (to a human) could cause their ire which usually resulted in a terrible and truly "inhumanly" cruel punishment.

I think the Others are not pure evil but like the Sidhe they are alien entities, which do not feel or perceive the world in the same way humans do. And as such it may be that the very existence of humans is a threat, or just an incredibly bothersome annoyance to them because of things that humans cannot even feel themselves. It may be that life and in particular human life or the human consciousness is producing emmissions that are extremely negative to the Others one way or another. I could imagine them having been driven mad by said emmission thus explaining their war on the intelligent species of Westeros during the Dawn Age? Age of Heroes? I don't remember exactly how it's called. They may just want some peace and quiet, very badly that is :).

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