Howland Reed saved Ned at the ToJ by...

[kissdbyfire]

skinchanging into Dayne. Alternatively, skinchanging into someone and doing something - a bird and the bird flew right in Dayne's face; the possibilities are numerous.  Just had the thought and got curious. What if that's how Reed saved Ned? Not a poisoned dart or arrow or frog spear. Not by some trick or anything like that either. Just good ol' skinchanging. 

At this point, I don't really care much about the exactly who/what/how. Of course, we don't have enough info but we will have it eventually. 

Here's all the info we get, from ACoK, Bran III

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.”

[cgrav]

Any hints as to this event in the text? I'm not sure there's much in the way of Crannogs being wargs.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Any hints as to this event in the text? I'm not sure there's much in the way of Crannogs being wargs.

Well, we don't know much about the crannogs but we do know a few things:

- FM blood

- Howland did an OG internship at the IoF

- OG magic runs in their veins (Jojen has greendreams, Howland [allegedly] can breathe mud and run on leaves). 

 

And irt the last on the above list, what if "breathing mud" and "running on leaves" is just a metaphor for skinchanging into animals that can actually do those things? 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think it's more likely it was something Howland said/shouted. 

Also, guessing how HR saved Ned's life would potentially make a great game.

45 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we don't know much about the crannogs but we do know a few things:

- FM blood

- Howland did an OG internship at the IoF

- OG magic runs in their veins (Jojen has greendreams, Howland [allegedly] can breathe mud and run on leaves). 

 

And irt the last on the above list, what if "breathing mud" and "running on leaves" is just a metaphor for skinchanging into animals that can actually do those things? 

He went there before going to Harrenhal. That doesn't mean he was there for any length of time.

Possible, but Meera is said to be able to do all those fun crannogs things and we have no indications of her being able to skinchange. No bond animal. No extra special understanding for Bran based on their shared ability. No times when she is sleeping for no apparent reason. You'd think that in the presence of a potential master skinchanger she'd talk shop a little.

[Therae]

I had the idea that "breathing mud" and "running on leaves" were metaphors for being able to move silently and stealthily in the boggy land (i.e., move under water without creating ripples, move over the detritus of the trees without a bunch of crunching twigs and leaves), but I also like the idea that HR could skinchange earthworms and preying mantises. Maybe he skinchanged a giant scorpion and ran up AD's leg at a critical moment.  Less glamorous than a lizard lion, but potentially effective.

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I think it's more likely it was something Howland said/shouted. 

Also, guessing how HR saved Ned's life would potentially make a great game.

He went there before going to Harrenhal. That doesn't mean he was there for any length of time.

Well, from what we know he was probably there for ~ 2 years.

ASoS, Bran II

“Once there was a curious lad who lived in the Neck. He was small like all crannogmen, but brave and smart and strong as well. He grew up hunting and fishing and climbing trees, and learned all the magics of my people.”

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. “Did he have green dreams like Jojen?”

“No,” said Meera, “but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear.”

“I wish I could,” Bran said plaintively. “When does he meet the tree knight?”

Meera made a face at him. “Sooner if a certain prince would be quiet.”

“I was just asking.”

“The lad knew the magics of the crannogs,” she continued, “but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We’re a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. 

“No one visits the Isle of Faces,” objected Bran. “That’s where the green men live.”

“It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork.”

Bran closed his eyes to try and see the man in his little skin boat. In his head, the crannogman looked like Jojen, only older and stronger and dressed like Meera.

“He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces.”

“Did he meet the green men?”

“Yes,” said Meera, “but that’s another story, and not for me to tell. My prince asked for knights.”

“Green men are good too.”

“They are,” she agreed, but said no more about them. “All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he’d left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world.”

“Harrenhal!” Bran knew at once. “It was Harrenhal!”

And we also have this, from The World of Ice and Fire, The Year of the False Spring

IN THE ANNALS of Westeros, 281 AC is known as the Year of the False Spring. Winter had held the land in its icy grip for close on two years, but now at last the snows were melting, the woods were greening, the days were growing longer. Though the white ravens had not yet flown, there were many even at the Citadel of Oldtown who believed that winter’s end was nigh.”

 

7 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Possible, but Meera is said to be able to do all those fun crannogs things and we have no indications of her being able to skinchange. No bond animal. No extra special understanding for Bran based on their shared ability. No times when she is sleeping for no apparent reason. You'd think that in the presence of a potential master skinchanger she'd talk shop a little.

I agree here, it is telling that we get nothing on Meera being a skinchanger, and I think it's safe to say she isn't. Still, it is possible that Howland has the gift and she doesn't. 

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, from what we know he was probably there for ~ 2 years.

ASoS, Bran II

I had forgotten about that story. Just wanted to say thanks for reminding me.

[Lion of the West]

While I will agree that its very possible that Howland Reed saved Eddard by the use of magic, I got a soft spot in my heart for Howland using a dart, a spear or a sword, or just tackling Dayne from behind to make his lose his balance and footing to be an easy kill for Eddard.

[White Ravens]

Howland tossing a net over Arthur Dayne or shooting him with a poisoned dart are far more likely than skinchanging.  In the Varamyr Sixskins prologue chapter in Dance we learn that it is no simple thing to warg an unfamiliar animal and that people resist violently.  When he tried to take over the body of the spearwife Thistle she resisted so violently that she clawed out her eyes and bit off her own tongue. 

[Nevets]

I think it is highly unlikely.  Bran had trouble with Hodor, who was a simpleton.  Varamyr, who is apparently a very powerful skinchanger,couldn't do it with Thistle.  I doubt that someone as strong-minded as Arthur Dayne, apparently well-educated and smart and strong-minded, could be taken over.   Plus we have no evidence whatsoever that Howland is a skinchanger.  None, zilch, nada.

I think it far more likely that he used a net or a dart, or simply was ignored and sneaked up behind him.  (In a fight for your life, ain't no such thing as a fair fight). 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I think it is highly unlikely.  Bran had trouble with Hodor, who was a simpleton.  Varamyr, who is apparently a very powerful skinchanger,couldn't do it with Thistle.  I doubt that someone as strong-minded as Arthur Dayne, apparently well-educated and smart and strong-minded, could be taken over.   Plus we have no evidence whatsoever that Howland is a skinchanger.  None, zilch, nada.

I think it far more likely that he used a net or a dart, or simply was ignored and sneaked up behind him.  (In a fight for your life, ain't no such thing as a fair fight). 

I know, I don't think it's very likely at all. It's just that the thought occurred to me... and here we are.

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

skinchanging into Dayne. Alternatively, skinchanging into someone and doing something - a bird and the bird flew right in Dayne's face; the possibilities are numerous.  Just had the thought and got curious. What if that's how Reed saved Ned? Not a poisoned dart or arrow or frog spear. Not by some trick or anything like that either. Just good ol' skinchanging. 

At this point, I don't really care much about the exactly who/what/how. Of course, we don't have enough info but we will have it eventually. 

Here's all the info we get, from ACoK, Bran III

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.”

Lord Reed didn't need to use magic. If we look at how his daughter, whom he trained, fights in the books, Howland probably threw a net over the Knight as he was about to kill Ned.  When Arthur was restrained or incapacitated, either Howland or Ned was able to kill the knight. If Howland was injured earlier in the fight, he may have gone unnoticed by the remaining combatants. If that doesn't work we can just assume that Bran went back in time and skinchanged Dayne and made him lose 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Lord Reed didn't need to use magic. If we look at how his daughter, whom he trained, fights in the books, Howland probably threw a net over the Knight as he was about to kill Ned.  When Arthur was restrained or incapacitated, either Howland or Ned was able to kill the knight. If Howland was injured earlier in the fight, he may have gone unnoticed by the remaining combatants. If that doesn't work we can just assume that Bran went back in time and skinchanged Dayne and made him lose 

 

As to the rest, like I said, I don't find the possibility very likely but still interesting.

[The Fattest Leech]

19 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

skinchanging into Dayne. Alternatively, skinchanging into someone and doing something - a bird and the bird flew right in Dayne's face; the possibilities are numerous.  Just had the thought and got curious. What if that's how Reed saved Ned? Not a poisoned dart or arrow or frog spear. Not by some trick or anything like that either. Just good ol' skinchanging. 

At this point, I don't really care much about the exactly who/what/how. Of course, we don't have enough info but we will have it eventually. 

Here's all the info we get, from ACoK, Bran III

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.”

Ok, I'll bite, but just a little.

We know Dorne is full of scorpions of all types. A scorpion bolt took down the dragon Meraxes, Leo Tyrell was killed in a bed of scorpions, Oberyn gave a scorpion brooch to Joffery as a wedding gift before he brought down the Mountain. We know Varamyr skinchanged into a worm when he was dying... so maybe the poison "dart" was Howland skinchanged into a scorpion??? People south of the wall don't really believe in skinchanging anymore, so this could be how they explained the events? It could have climbed into an unprotected joint in Rhaegar's ARTHUR DAYNE"S armour... and gotten him in his achilles!

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, I'll bite, but just a little.

We know Dorne is full of scorpions of all types. A scorpion bolt took down the dragon Meraxes, Leo Tyrell was killed in a bed of scorpions, Oberyn gave a scorpion brooch to Joffery as a wedding gift before he brought down the Mountain. We know Varamyr skinchanged into a worm when he was dying... so maybe the poison "dart" was Howland skinchanged into a scorpion??? People south of the wall don't really believe in skinchanging anymore, so this could be how they explained the events? It could have climbed into an unprotected joint in Rhaegar's ARTHUR DAYNE"S armour... and gotten him in his achilles!

Love it! And

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, from what we know he was probably there for ~ 2 years.

<snip

I agree here, it is telling that we get nothing on Meera being a skinchanger, and I think it's safe to say she isn't. Still, it is possible that Howland has the gift and she doesn't. 

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

My favorite way for Howland to save Ned's life is by yelling "Hey Dayne, I knocked up your sister!"

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

My favorite way for Howland to save Ned's life is by yelling "Hey Dayne, I knocked up your sister!"

[Lord Wraith]

4 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

My favorite way for Howland to save Ned's life is by yelling "Hey Dayne, I knocked up your sister!"

I always preferred the idea that Howland threw a frog at Dayne. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

I always preferred the idea that Howland threw a frog at Dayne. 

And the mighty warrior freaked out? Or was that the last of poor Kermit?

[Kingmonkey]

9 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

While I will agree that its very possible that Howland Reed saved Eddard by the use of magic, I got a soft spot in my heart for Howland using a dart, a spear or a sword, or just tackling Dayne from behind to make his lose his balance and footing to be an easy kill for Eddard.

It's been pointed out before, but the traditional weapons of the Crannogmen are "frog spear" (trident), dagger, and net. These are the weapons of the retiarii gladiators, specifically intended to combat a more armoured opponent. We've seen Meera handling a direwolf...

On the other hand, frog to the face. The frog's name was Kekex, by the way. Fearsome frog.