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np1234

Just how important is Mance?

28 posts in this topic

On 3/21/2017 at 7:25 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I think he meant wights. He can fight the wights, as evidenced by his ordering Varamyr to put his wolves on the wights' scent and every man to have a torch and flint.

Yeah, that was a complete slip on my part. I meant wights, referring to the statement that goes something like, Aye.. you've killed a dead man.. Mance has killed a hundred.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am surprised to find someone on this forum think that bloodraven is working against the others. Nice.

Really? I always though it was pretty much 50/50 and it's up to us to figure it out based on GRRM's clues, same with Bran. I think BR has done a lot to show that he's a good guy and is trying to do what's best for the realm, and I have little reason to believe that changed after deserting the NW.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:


As for the timing of introductions, that really has no bearing on anything. Mance is mentioned in the first book, but we do not meet him until the third book. We hear about Marwyn in the first book too, but we don't see him until the end of the fourth. 

That's not an even comparison at all. I am not saying Mance is important because he's mentioned in the first book, ton's of character's are in the first book. He is mentioned in the Second Paragraph of the first chapter. He is the first character given a title in the entire series. He is the first character introduced to the reader. To say that's not important and to compare it with someone merely being mentioned in the first book fails to recognize its significance.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:


I am curious, where did it say that mance had killed hundreds of white walkers? He fights with steel. We never see him mention dragonglass as far as I can remember. 

Mistake on my part, definitely meant wights. Still, he's killed more of the dead than anyone else and has stopped them from killing all those wilidings that would have greatly bolstered their numbers. That's extremely helpful in our fight against them.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:


As for the pink letter? Meh. whoever wrote it did it to get Jon to ride south. He tried and got stabbed. Job done.

If you were arguing that the point of the PL was to get jon stabbed and then jon got stabbed, so the job is done, I would agree. But I, like you, believe the PL's intention was to bring Jon south, not to get him stabbed. So I do not believe the job is done when jon is stabbed, i believe it is done when jon goes south. I think Jon will be back and will be going south.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Also, the rowan theory is cute, but it is just that, and unproven theories rarely bolster another unproven theory.

So what, is that you basically just writing it off? God forbid a theory has multiple aspects that are still unproven. Rowan being an umber makes more sense than her not. Everything points to Rowan being an Umber. If you disagree, I urge you to dig deeper or provide an alternative theory that better explains why she addresses stannis as king, is angry at theon using the stark words, is described as having the same skin as other umbers (leathery) and calls theon a kinslayer when half the other people to do so are also umbers. This isn't even mentioning how GRRM purposely writes Mance into two scenes that give him all the knowledge he needs about the umbers and the daughter that was stolen.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Speaking of the pink letter, the text also strongly supports Stannis writing the pink letter. Far more than Mance, and we met Stannis earlier in the story, he has played a larger role in the story and has all the information necessary to compose it.

The text supports Stannis writing the PL because GRRM has made it a mystery for the reader to solve and Stannis, Ramsay, and Mance are all possible answers to the mystery. GRRM made the text support all of them, but not equally. Mance is the correct answer, and he is whom the text ultimately supports. I've laid out the reasons I believe mance wrote the pl in my thread, "An argument supporting Mance wrote the Pink Letter", so I'd be happy to defend my views there if we wish to talk more about the PL specifically.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:


I completely disagree on your opinion of his greatness. He is written OK, and he does beat Jon in a fight, but his command gets obliterated  pretty easily and he is probably captured and nude in a cell in winterfell

He was a man who deserted the only life he knew at the wall to venture into the inhospitable north with people who would immediately hate him for being a NW brother. You can say they would welcome him as a wilding but Osha's comments show us that the average wilding still views him as a black crow flew down from the shadow tower, and not one of them. He went out from the wall on his own with nothing and managed to become king. He united warring tribes through both politics and single combat. We have a few characters who are political like that e.g tyrion, varys, and a few that are badass fighters like that e.g. red viper, Jaime, but can you think of anyone who is both. Who could become the "elected" leader of a realm of unorganized warring tribes. How many kings are willing to go single combat these days. Yet Mance really doesn't even show an affinity towards violence. Mance is a boss. His rise from nothing to king should be evidence enough. And I disagree that he is probably captured nude in WF. I would say he's probably about to be in a position of power in WF, but that's just more "unproven theories". Then again, so is assuming the PL is true.

On 3/20/2017 at 11:11 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:


Also, why do you think Jon will kill him? 

Just a scenario I like. Seems an appropriately tragic end. I could see it unfolding similar to Bael when his son kills him.

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15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Yeah, that was a complete slip on my part. I meant wights, referring to the statement that goes something like, Aye.. you've killed a dead man.. Mance has killed a hundred.

I see. thanks

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Really? I always though it was pretty much 50/50 and it's up to us to figure it out based on GRRM's clues, same with Bran. I think BR has done a lot to show that he's a good guy and is trying to do what's best for the realm, and I have little reason to believe that changed after deserting the NW.

People see his shiftiness as a reason to not believe anything he says to bran, subverting tropes and blah blah.........
I think he is not the same person after merging with the weirnet.  Just hearing how he speaks of his brothers and sister seems to indicate a profound change in his extreme old age

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

That's not an even comparison at all. I am not saying Mance is important because he's mentioned in the first book, ton's of character's are in the first book. He is mentioned in the Second Paragraph of the first chapter. He is the first character given a title in the entire series. He is the first character introduced to the reader. To say that's not important and to compare it with someone merely being mentioned in the first book fails to recognize its significance.

It's a perfectly reasonable comparison. Mance is a plot point that was foreshadowed early on in the story. The author knew what he was going to do with him.  To the op, making the jump from being an early mentioned character to something like busting into the crypts, discovering jon's secret, rallying the wildlings and then leading the north against the others again is far too much. He isn't even a POV character.  Entering crypts, leading the fight all or that needs to be in a POV. 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Mistake on my part, definitely meant wights. Still, he's killed more of the dead than anyone else and has stopped them from killing all those wilidings that would have greatly bolstered their numbers. That's extremely helpful in our fight against them. 

there are so many dead things I can't imagine the battle will be won or lost by the number of dead wights. 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

So what, is that you basically just writing it off?

Yes

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

God forbid a theory has multiple aspects that are still unproven.

If it isn't in the books it isn't in the books.  theories based on theories that are nothing but wild speculation are bogus. A neat exercise, intellectual masturbation, but nothing more. 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

 Rowan being an umber makes more sense than her not.

Maybe, or maybe not. 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Everything points to Rowan being an Umber. If you disagree, I urge you to dig deeper or provide an alternative theory that better explains why she addresses stannis as king, is angry at theon using the stark words, is described as having the same skin as other umbers (leathery) and calls theon a kinslayer when half the other people to do so are also umbers. This isn't even mentioning how GRRM purposely writes Mance into two scenes that give him all the knowledge he needs about the umbers and the daughter that was stolen.

Everything does not point to her being an Umber. did she say she is? Does she have an umber tattoo on her thigh? She addresses Stannis as king because he is a brutal man would punishes disrespect, especially to those beneath him who he does not need, like wildlings.  She is angry at theon because he is a traitor and betrayer who until recently was the numero uno collaborator with a monster. Leathers, from beyond the wall has leathery skin. Is he an umber too. Also, what scenes are you referring to? 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

The text supports Stannis writing the PL because GRRM has made it a mystery for the reader to solve and Stannis, Ramsay, and Mance are all possible answers to the mystery. GRRM made the text support all of them, but not equally. Mance is the correct answer, and he is whom the text ultimately supports. I've laid out the reasons I believe mance wrote the pl in my thread, "An argument supporting Mance wrote the Pink Letter", so I'd be happy to defend my views there if we wish to talk more about the PL specifically.

I disagree entirely on supporting text, and we are talking about it because it is mentioned in the op. I would argue that Stannis writing it makes far more sense than anyone else. But we can leave that to another thread 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

He was a man who deserted the only life he knew at the wall to venture into the inhospitable north with people who would immediately hate him for being a NW brother. You can say they would welcome him as a wilding but Osha's comments show us that the average wilding still views him as a black crow flew down from the shadow tower, and not one of them.

He didn't desert the only life he knew. He spent lots of time north of the wall. He fought and killed many who would have later called him king. He deserted due to experiencing a kindness that was rebuffed by his brothers. 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

 He went out from the wall on his own with nothing and managed to become king. He united warring tribes through both politics and single combat. We have a few characters who are political like that e.g tyrion, varys, and a few that are badass fighters like that e.g. red viper, Jaime, but can you think of anyone who is both. Who could become the "elected" leader of a realm of unorganized warring tribes.

Jon Snow

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

 How many kings are willing to go single combat these days.

King Bob and King Robb

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Yet Mance really doesn't even show an affinity towards violence.

His leading his army and his fight with Jon says otherwise 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Mance is a boss. His rise from nothing to king should be evidence enough.

I agree he is a boss, But he didn't come from "Nothing."  That is dead wrong. He was educated by maesters, he was trained in combat by knights, learned to wield castle forged steel and had years of ranging with the longest running military order in history. That is very far from nothing. 

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

And I disagree that he is probably captured nude in WF. I would say he's probably about to be in a position of power in WF, but that's just more "unproven theories". Then again, so is assuming the PL is true.

that's fine that you disagree, and yes, thinking he will gain power in winterfell is mos-def an unproven piece of baseless speculation.  Assuming the pink letter is true is not a baseless theory though. Stannis (and the text supports stanis as the author far more than anyone else) has captured the bolton lackeys in his camp so he would know the disposition of winterfell. I guess if you haven't read the released chapters then it would make more sense if Mance wrote the letter.  

15 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Just a scenario I like. Seems an appropriately tragic end. I could see it unfolding similar to Bael when his son kills him.

Ok. That kinda makes sense, but Jon and mance would have to be enemies again, and I do not see that happening  

Edited by Dorian Martell's son

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Mance is the rogue prince equivalent of this generation.  Mr. Martin loves that kind of character so I don't think Mance will die until near the end of the story. 

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Even if he's killed off in the first chapter of WoW, he's already been extremely important. Uniting the wildlings and, in a sense, getting them south of the wall is a major factor in the war to come. He's the first character we're introduced to that knows what's really at stake, and makes moves to save humanity. 

Long live King Mance :bowdown:

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The opening post had some rather interesting ideas. I like the Mance character. I’m one of the people who think he survives WF. My tinfoil is that Ramsey not Mance is in the cage and that Roose was killed by Manderly’s archers while sitting at the dais enjoying his meal.

What part could he play after the battle for WF? LC Snow has let a massive amount of the wildlings and free folk through the Wall and he’s using them to man the castles along the Wall so to defend the realm against the Others.

The Others & wights start becoming active when it starts getting dark. If winter brings the long night, doesn’t that mean 24 hour a day of night fighting? If the magic wards of the Wall hold and the NW & wildlings manage to keep the onslaught of Others & the wights at bay, what happens then. I guess daylight returns and the Others return to whence they came.

I’m rambling.

If Mance survived WF, he, Stannis & the LC would be rivals for leadership. Right now the only reason the wildlings are cooperating is so they can defeat their common foe. Plus that Weeper dude is still making trouble north of the Wall and Tormund might be getting keen on the idea of being a leader.

I really can’t come up with a good suggestion as to what Mance’s role would be after WF. Maybe he goes with Stannis to the Night Fort. No, I don’t think that would work out very well. Would be interesting to read a conversation between the two though.

The wildling culture and the northmen culture don’t actually gel. After the defeat of the Others does the memo arrive at the various Wall castles saying, “Okay, we have defeated our common enemy now you can go home.” The response would probably be something like, “Hell NO we won’t go.”

Jon’s last commands were that Tormund was to lead a rescue mission to Hardhome and that he (Jon) was going to WF. This Stannis, WF, Jon, Mance, and the defeat of the Others is the first thing I will be snooping out in WoW.

I think I may have convinced myself Mance dies. But, he better reveal where and how he came to be in procession of that raven wing helmet before he dies. Oh, he also needs to spill the beans about his buddy Halfhand. Now I’m looking for reasons to keep him alive. I just remembered another one. The baby swap. He’s gotta get his kid back from Gilly!!! Long live The Mance.

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Other than Marwyn, Mance is probably the person I'm most intrigued by in the story. Whatever he's up to, its something huge. Its been going on for years, and you don't go back and forth over the Wall a dozen times just to steal a goat or something. Really can't wait to see what his conspiracy with the Manderly's and Umber's is all about. And why's he so interested in Jon? I don't believe he is secretly Rhaegar, but they clearly have some connection. And since Mance most likely wrote the Pink Letter its safe to assume he isn't locked up in a cage in Winterfell, so wonder where he'll be at the start of Winds.

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On 3/24/2017 at 1:24 AM, Rosetta Stone said:

Mance is the rogue prince equivalent of this generation.  Mr. Martin loves that kind of character so I don't think Mance will die until near the end of the story. 

Actually, Daario is probably the most Daemon-like character in the series. I was rather shocked to discover it. Mance has very little in common with TRP.

And for the record, @Dorian Martell's son I too am pro-Bloodraven.

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Joining the Bloodraven Caucus. 

Mance is definitely important, but I'm quite unclear what his role is. He's a trickster of sorts, talking about tricksy birds and being a turncloak, but he seems to side with the good. I'd wager he has some role in overthrowing the Boltons.

Symbolism is important in defining and predicting events or character developments. Winterfell is described in eggy terms several times, and Mance has snuck into it twice. What sneaks into eggs? Sperm. He styles himself after Bael the Bard, who, like a crafty sperm, snuck into the egg of winterfell and planted a child. And now with Mance  surrounded by a little harem while he's there, there's quite a bit of this procreative imagery happening. Maybe Mance will get a child on Jeyne Poole-Bolton and lay a claim to Winterfell for himself (are there even 9-12 months left in the series?).

Or maybe he will burn Winterfell yet again. His very first appearance in one of Jon's earliest POV's says that his voice could scarcely be heard above the roaring of the fire.

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