Why do Lannisters have a reputation as a "villain family"?

[snow is the man]

Mainly because they have been the villains in the series. Cersei is insane and evil pure and simple and tywin is a war criminal on an incredible scale and since he has essentially rebuilt the house and to most people he "is house lannister" so they are judged by him and his children as well.

Jaime-In the first episode of the show and early in the first book we see him sleeping with his sister and then throwing a little kid off a tower to try an kill him. Then we see him do all kinds of bad things and in the early seasons he is an arrogant jerk. And since the starks were made to be the "good" guys especially in the beggining and we see them hating jaime well it implies that the lannisters are the bad guys as well.

Tywin- Wipes out entire houses and  helps plan the red wedding to some degree. He keeps gregor on retainer and uses him too essentially rape and terrorize the riverlands and the ones he does do this to were people who played no part in the fighting just lived in the area where it was happening. In the show it doesn't show as much of it but they leave the riverlands in such bad shape by taking all the livestock they can and just killing the rest and doing the same with every other food supply in the riverlands and burning houses and fields down that it causes a famine and if the winter lasts more then a year it will likely cause the death of half the remaining population and tywin knows this will happen but does it anyway.  And this needs to be said since most people don't catch it but when he sacked kings landing it was completly unneccesary since aery's had literally opened the gates and let him in. Yet tywin lets (probably tells them too) his men rape and pillage kings landing. Also tywin keeps evil people with him and rewards them for it.   So basically tywin has been responsible for the deaths of probably at  least half a million people.

 

Cersei- She is a cruel and paranoid women who sleeps with her brother then her cousin sleep with her as well and used it to control him. She does terrible thing after terrible thing. 

In the show tyrion is very white washed so he doesn't count in the show.

Joffrey-An evil monster who is 100% lannister.

Lancel is a little snob and annoying in season 2 and when we see him again he is a nut job.

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/25/2017 at 10:59 PM, WSmith84 said:

I have to agree with the other poster here; this defense is fairly weak. Jaime is well aware that fucking his sister is illegal and will get him, her and his children killed if they are caught and so he will have to silence anyone who catches them. Thus making it automatically immoral to continue doing it. And really, if they wanted to keep doing it that badly they'd grab some gold, flee to Essos and live as husband and wife with they're children; they don't do that because they aren't prepared to sacrifice their own lifestyles to do so. They are, however, prepared to toss little boys out of windows. Even if you want to make the argument that Jaime didn't think about the consequences, he later has sex with Cersei on the way back to King's Landing, so it seems Jaime was perfectly prepared to keep tossing boys out of windows so he could shag his sister.

You can assume it's weak. It matters little and less his defense of his position is that Jaime is a cartoon evil caricature, no matter what his words say. We've already seen him deny and dismiss people and arguments when his words and explanation and subsequent context don't match up.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:31 PM, The Wolves said:

GRRM also called Jaime a villain. 

Also not everyone sees Jaime story as a story of redemption. He hasn't shown any real regret for ANYTHING. He's NEVER once looked around at all the devastation, deaths, blood, rapes, families torn apart or any of it and acknowledged his part in it. There is never that real regret for any of the wrongs he committed, never. So yes Jaime is still a villain and to some of us will always be a villain.  

“Well, he’s beyond suspicion now.” Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . .”

Demonizing characters is easy. Actually reading the text and seeing character development is easy too. Must be easier to ignore it....

[Thoror]

Some people cannot distinguish between morally grey people and outright villains. This supposedly villainous Jaime Lannister had saved King's Landing even before his redemption arc.

[The Sunland Lord]

7 hours ago, snow is the man said:

 

In the show tyrion is very white washed so he doesn't count in the show.

Joffrey-An evil monster who is 100% lannister.

Lancel is a little snob and annoying in season 2 and when we see him again he is a nut job.

 

Just a little correction. This thread is in the ASOIAF section, not the show, so feel free to count books here.  

[Lion of the West]

17 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Oh for god's sake!  Language bullies have no interest in discussing ideas, so they pick ONE word you say, and then they go HOG WILD.

I tried to put myself into the perspective of a reader reading the series for the first time.  Which, technically, is no longer me.  Do you have any evidence for your belief that I DO speak ONLY for myself?  I am quite sure that I speak for at least SOME others, who have expressed similar views in the past in a variety of forums, and even in this thread.  What "majority" gave YOU the right to declare that I speak ONLY for myself.

I never presumed to speak for YOU, so YOU have no cause for complaint.  Choose your own words and let me choose mine.   If this means so much to you, go organize a poll.

No, I pick the central part of your message and break it appart to show that its unreasonable. I understand it can hurt to be called out, but there you have it. We've had plenty of wild discussions on this forum before so it this would be another, I'm all ready to go.

And no I don't have any evidence for anything, but I will point out that neither do you. You are perfectly in your right to use whatever terminology you wish. Just as I am in my total right to question that choice of terminology if I so wish.

[Lion of the West]

12 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Exactly my point.  Now that we have that settled, please feel free to express your own opinion, if you have one. 

I do have one. And I expressed in all my posts.

[Lion of the West]

1 minute ago, Lew Theobald said:

Congratulations.

Thank you very much. It does seem that I have one up on you.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

What some call "outright villains", others call "cartoon villains".

What some call "morally grey", others call "villains".

If morally grey people are villains, there might be 2-3 "heroes" in the entire series. So good luck with that

[The Wolves]

13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

“Well, he’s beyond suspicion now.” Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . .”

Demonizing characters is easy. Actually reading the text and seeing character development is easy too. Must be easier to ignore it....

So was it character development when in AFFC he was going around threatening to murder a newborn baby and trying to equate his monster of a father? Or when Jaime condemned Cersei to the judgement of the Faith for her treasons and betrayal when he was guilty of all of that and than some? 

[King Ned Stark]

I never really believed the Jaime redemption arc.  Near the last time we see him he is threatening to do what he did near to the first time we see him, when most people saw him as a villain.  Killing children.

Saving Brienne I think feeds back more into two of his character traits that seem already fairly well established; courage, and defending people he loves/respects.

Killing Aerys, or saving Kings Landing if you prefer, could just as easily be written off as self-preservation.  It's an easy sacrifice that acts to trick the readers because of the sheer enormity of lives saved.  Absent the wild fire plot, would Jaime have fought westermen (and died)?  Would he have brought Aerys the head of his father, or die trying?  Unlikely.  Seems to me that he was going to kill Aerys no matter, and he justifies it to hilmself with the wild fire plot.

Quote

Jaime had decided he would return Sansa, and the younger girl as well if she could be found.  It was not like to win him back his honor, but the thought of keeping faith when they all expected betrayal amused him more than he could say.

He gives a token effort of finding the Stark girls, and apparently more out of amusement, than actually doing the right thing.

He allows Jeyne to be more or less kidnapped by the Boltons.  He doesn't seem to care about the weak and the innocent, at least no as much as his reputation.

Quote

The white cloak soiled me, not the other way around.

He wants to be looked upon like Dayne, or Ned, but doing the right thing is often difficult (unlike killing Aerys to save half a million people) and more often than not he chooses what is safe and easy.  He could of died defending Rhaella against Aerys raping her, or could could have died defending Aerys against the Lannisters and Starks, but he chose neither.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

I don't see the problem.  If it turned out there would be ZERO heros in the entire series, it would be no skin off my nose.   

As Bonifer said, all men are sinners, but some sins are blacker in the eyes of the Seven than others.  Like killing babies.

"Morally grey" is just a meaningless postmodern label, that means whatever you want it to mean.  As applied to Jaime, it merely means he is not a complete cartoon villain, but is closer to a realistic portrayal of a murderous human being whose foul deeds are justified in his own mind.  Rather like every single "villain" that Shakespear ever wrote.

There is a lot of of fail in the thread. Somehow you managed to concentrate it into this post. Applause is necessary and given, ser.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

I never really believed the Jaime redemption arc.  Near the last time we see him he is threatening to do what he did near to the first time we see him, when most people saw him as a villain.  Killing children.

I don't like that his character development is so often called a redemption arc. The start of this so-called redemption arc more or less coincides with the introduction of his PoVs. So the truth is, we don't know whether he was, inside his own head, exactly as he is when we get inside his head. 

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

Saving Brienne I think feeds back more into two of his character traits that seem already fairly well established; courage, and defending people he loves/respects.

I agree, but I think it's that and more. Remains to be seen.

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

Killing Aerys, or saving Kings Landing if you prefer, could just as easily be written off as self-preservation.  It's an easy sacrifice that acts to trick the readers because of the sheer enormity of lives saved.  Absent the wild fire plot, would Jaime have fought westermen (and died)?

IMO,  if it's the exact same scenario minus the wildfire, the answer is no. Problem is, I think that would have been the right decision. It was clear Aerys was a sadistic nut job, and Jaime already knew it. Who's the KG he asks about defending Rhaella? Darry? Hightower

Doesn't matter. Aerys had to go, no way around that. 

 

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

 Would he have brought Aerys the head of his father, or die trying?  Unlikely.  Seems to me that he was going to kill Aerys no matter, and he justifies it to hilmself with the wild fire plot.

I don't think he would either. Shame, it would have been his best decision yet: get Westeros rid of Tywin and Aerys in one fell swoop.

 

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

He gives a token effort of finding the Stark girls, and apparently more out of amusement, than actually doing the right thing.

Disagree. Jaime finding it amusing and his desire to try to find the Stark girls are not mutually exclusive. 

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

He allows Jeyne to be more or less kidnapped by the Boltons.  He doesn't seem to care about the weak and the innocent, at least no as much as his reputation.

Pia would beg to differ. 

AFfC - Jaime III 

"Take the whore as well," Ser Bonifer urged. "You know the one. The girl from the dungeons."

"Pia." The last time he had been here, Qyburn had sent the girl to his bed, thinking that would please him. But the Pia they had brought up from the dungeons was a different creature from the sweet, simple, giggly creature who'd crawled beneath his blankets. She had made the mistake of speaking when Ser Gregor wanted quiet, so the Mountain had smashed her teeth to splinters with a mailed fist and broken her pretty little nose as well. He would have done worse, no doubt, if Cersei had not called him down to King's Landing to face the Red Viper's spear. Jaime would not mourn him. "Pia was born in this castle," he told Ser Bonifer. "It is the only home she has ever known."

AFfC - IV 

One of the Mountain's men had tried to rape the girl at Harrenhal, and had seemed honestly perplexed when Jaime commanded Ilyn Payne to take his head off. "I had her before, a hunnerd times," he kept saying as they forced him to his knees. "A hunnerd times, m'lord. We all had her." When Ser Ilyn presented Pia with his head, she had smiled through her ruined teeth.

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

He wants to be looked upon like Dayne, or Ned, but doing the right thing is often difficult (unlike killing Aerys to save half a million people) and more often than not he chooses what is safe and easy.  He could of died defending Rhaella against Aerys raping her, or could could have died defending Aerys against the Lannisters and Starks, but he chose neither.

He was 17, and he did tell another KG, and one who had "seniority" for lack of a better word, that they were sworn to protect the queen, too. Remember what Darry replied?

He wanted to be Arthur Dayne, but became disillusioned and brutally cynical, and did some very horrible things. I can't wait to read the rest of his journey. 

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

The text makes it clear that Jaime was prepared to murder Edmure's wife and baby to get what he wanted.  I feel perfectly justified in judging him according to what he was prepared to do, even if that is not what actually happened.  That's not "having it both ways".  I'm merely taking Jaime at his word that he is exactly as evil as he claims to be.

He freed Edmure, yes.  But as you concede, that was not altruistic.

It remains to be seen that there will be no bloodshed.  As Jaime made clear when he threatened Edmure & his pregnant wife with torture-murder after Edmure surrendered based on Jaime's promises, Jaime's promises are meaningless.

The text makes it clear that he presented a credible threat.  Whether he really would have gone through with that if his bluff was called is another matter.  If we knew the answer we wouldn't be having this conversation.  The fact remains that he achieved a bloodless victory at Riverrun and your determination to paint him as black as possible has you trying him for crimes not committed and accusing him of spilling blood to save spilling even more blood without even having the grace or objectivity to acknowledge that no blood was in fact spilled....

Maybe some blood will be spilled down the line but we have to judge a character on what they do not what they talk about or think about doing.

And Brienne would beg to differ as to whether Jaime's promises are meaningless.

Fact is GRRM is on the record as talking about playing with the idea of redemption (outcome unknown) but you seem wilfully intent on denying any writing that illustrates that Jaime is striving to be a better person and making decisions that he would not have made in his AGOT/ACOK character.  Change is possible whether or not that leads to redemption.  The idea is not that he suddenly changes into a saint/monk-like figure - that's Lancel - but that he both has and is changing.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't like that his character development is so often called a redemption arc. The start of this so-called redemption arc more or less coincides with the introduction of his PoVs. So the truth is, we don't know whether he was, inside his own head, exactly as he is when we get inside his head. 

I agree, but I think it's that and more. Remains to be seen.

IMO,  if it's the exact same scenario minus the wildfire, the answer is no. Problem is, I think that would have been the right decision. It was clear Aerys was a sadistic nut job, and Jaime already knew it. Who's the KG he asks about defending Rhaella? Darry? Hightower

Doesn't matter. Aerys had to go, no way around that. 

 

I don't think he would either. Shame, it would have been his best decision yet: get Westeros rid of Tywin and Aerys in one fell swoop.

 

Disagree. Jaime finding it amusing and his desire to try to find the Stark girls are not mutually exclusive. 

Pia would beg to differ. 

AFfC - Jaime III 

"Take the whore as well," Ser Bonifer urged. "You know the one. The girl from the dungeons."

"Pia." The last time he had been here, Qyburn had sent the girl to his bed, thinking that would please him. But the Pia they had brought up from the dungeons was a different creature from the sweet, simple, giggly creature who'd crawled beneath his blankets. She had made the mistake of speaking when Ser Gregor wanted quiet, so the Mountain had smashed her teeth to splinters with a mailed fist and broken her pretty little nose as well. He would have done worse, no doubt, if Cersei had not called him down to King's Landing to face the Red Viper's spear. Jaime would not mourn him. "Pia was born in this castle," he told Ser Bonifer. "It is the only home she has ever known."

AFfC - IV 

One of the Mountain's men had tried to rape the girl at Harrenhal, and had seemed honestly perplexed when Jaime commanded Ilyn Payne to take his head off. "I had her before, a hunnerd times," he kept saying as they forced him to his knees. "A hunnerd times, m'lord. We all had her." When Ser Ilyn presented Pia with his head, she had smiled through her ruined teeth.

He was 17, and he did tell another KG, and one who had "seniority" for lack of a better word, that they were sworn to protect the queen, too. Remember what Darry replied?

He wanted to be Arthur Dayne, but became disillusioned and brutally cynical, and did some very horrible things. I can't wait to read the rest of his journey. 

I think that's the best summary of Jaime in this thread.  To the reader the Jaime of AGOT/ACOK appears a monster and to always have been so.  Knowing what he knew, thought and did in KL in Aerys's KG gives a different picture.  Seeing what he will do and where he'll end up is fascinating and conflicting: should we feel any sympathy or approval for a character who threw a child out the window?  The head says no but the way GRRM is writing him has the heart leaning that way and conflicted over it(tbd). 

It's like Arya leaving The Hound off her list, despite the fact he cut Mycah near in two, and then wondering why she did that.  Surely Mycah's murder was unforgiveable?

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Have you forgotten this line of Jaime's?  It's from the same chapter where Jaime threatens Edmure with torture murder, with his wife dying beside him (in his previous chapter, he had threatened to send Edmure his infant son with a trubuchet):

"Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out. If I were to threaten to hit you unless you shut your mouth, and you presumed to speak, what do you think I'd do?"

No, I haven't.  The lesson was learned very quickly which is all part of establishing a position from which a further threat can be made that people will listen to.  Edmure would have been taking too great a risk to call Jaime's bluff which is the whole point.  Needless to say, you are still trying Jaime for things he didn't do while succeedingly manfully in ignoring the fact that he um, well, didn't do them.  The Jaime of AGOT / ACOK would have stormed Riverrun without a second thought, sending the River Lords and their men to do the dirty work, the Jaime of AFFC finds a bloodless solution.

8 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

The possibility, or availability, of redemption, rejected by the protagonist, is an element of many a "damnation arc".  The possibility of redemption is precisely what makes them tragic.

Well, at least you are prepared to acknowledge the possibility of redemption so that's a start.  I have said all along and the author is on the record as saying that he is exploring the idea of redemption and doesn't know whether it is possible or not.  Where Jaime ends up in an unknown, but to ignore the differences in his thoughts and behaviour seems to deliberately miss out on what GRRM is trying to explore.

[King Ned Stark]

15 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't like that his character development is so often called a redemption arc. The start of this so-called redemption arc more or less coincides with the introduction of his PoVs. So the truth is, we don't know whether he was, inside his own head, exactly as he is when we get inside his head. 

I agree, but I think it's that and more. Remains to be seen.

IMO,  if it's the exact same scenario minus the wildfire, the answer is no. Problem is, I think that would have been the right decision. It was clear Aerys was a sadistic nut job, and Jaime already knew it. Who's the KG he asks about defending Rhaella? Darry? Hightower

Doesn't matter. Aerys had to go, no way around that. 

 

I don't think he would either. Shame, it would have been his best decision yet: get Westeros rid of Tywin and Aerys in one fell swoop.

 

Disagree. Jaime finding it amusing and his desire to try to find the Stark girls are not mutually exclusive. 

Pia would beg to differ. 

AFfC - Jaime III 

"Take the whore as well," Ser Bonifer urged. "You know the one. The girl from the dungeons."

"Pia." The last time he had been here, Qyburn had sent the girl to his bed, thinking that would please him. But the Pia they had brought up from the dungeons was a different creature from the sweet, simple, giggly creature who'd crawled beneath his blankets. She had made the mistake of speaking when Ser Gregor wanted quiet, so the Mountain had smashed her teeth to splinters with a mailed fist and broken her pretty little nose as well. He would have done worse, no doubt, if Cersei had not called him down to King's Landing to face the Red Viper's spear. Jaime would not mourn him. "Pia was born in this castle," he told Ser Bonifer. "It is the only home she has ever known."

AFfC - IV 

One of the Mountain's men had tried to rape the girl at Harrenhal, and had seemed honestly perplexed when Jaime commanded Ilyn Payne to take his head off. "I had her before, a hunnerd times," he kept saying as they forced him to his knees. "A hunnerd times, m'lord. We all had her." When Ser Ilyn presented Pia with his head, she had smiled through her ruined teeth.

He was 17, and he did tell another KG, and one who had "seniority" for lack of a better word, that they were sworn to protect the queen, too. Remember what Darry replied?

He wanted to be Arthur Dayne, but became disillusioned and brutally cynical, and did some very horrible things. I can't wait to read the rest of his journey. 

I enjoy reading Jaime's chapters, more so than, say, Sansa or Arya.  But I "root" more for them, and given the option of Sansa dying (some of my least favorite chapters) and Jaime dying (whose chapters I really really enjoy from an entertainment standpoint), I'd choose Jaime dying.  He may be on a redemption arc, or as you put it which I like better, it's just character development.

I agree with @Lew Theobald that his redemption arc could be rejected, or he could fall short, as all people do.  For those diehard redemption arc people, I've wondered, can there be true redemption without atonement.  I'm not sure, is that the reasoning behind Stannis's statement about good and bad acts?

Martin is a tricksy bird, and just when you think it's smooth sailing, it's not.  I've seen Jaime, Theon, and Sandor being mentioned as working towards redemption, I don't think it will happen for all three.

[SerMudz]

On 21/08/2017 at 7:21 AM, TMIFairy said:

I agree with the "Tywin and his brood" being the causes of vilification of the House Lannister. Under Tytos the family probably inspired "point and laugh" reactions.

Tywin? - 'nuff said.

Cersei? - murderess in her mid teens.

Jaime? - raper of his brother's wife in his mid teens. On his father's command, mind you.

Tyrion? - as ruthless as his father. Being smarter than Tywin means that he has to be brutal less often.

As to the Stark's - Eddard and his brood indeed do not strike one as particularly bright.

I disagree on the sympathetic picture of Robert painted above - IMO a piece of shit. However, far cry from the league of the likes of Tywin or Euron.

Every story needs villains. "Blond guys = bad guys" is in fashion nowadays.

There's no evidence that Jaime raped Tyrion's wife. Not sure where you got that from. He even says in Book 2 he's only ever lain with one woman which is Cersei. 

I also don't see Tywin Lannister as particularly evil. His complete destruction of the Houses Reyne and Tarbeck were necessary to restore the reputation the Lannisters once had - Tytos had reduced House Lannister to such a low point that they were verging on destruction themselves, soon they would be completely overthrown by their vassal houses because they simply no longer commanded respect. Tywin had to send a clear message that would put a stop to any rebellions from vassal houses and restore their reputation as a powerful great house that commanded respect. He is pragmatic and ruthless but I don't see him as evil. Ultimately Tywin wants a peaceful realm - he just wants to ensure the Lannisters are the ones ruling it and remain doing so for many generations 

[palaeologos]

On 8/21/2017 at 8:02 AM, LionoftheWest said:

 I do not mean that Jon Arryn was a roaring monster but I contend that he wasn't a flawless saint defined by only good qualities.

There's no support for that in the text.  Any number of factors could have contributed to Lysa's instability, from a predisposition to mental illness to her arranged marriage to a man she didn't want to the torch she was carrying for Petyr Baelish (remember, he took her virginity under the impression that she was her sister).  The fact that she was married to Arryn is purely circumstantial, and there is no textual evidence that he mistreated her in any way.

 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, SerMudz said:

There's no evidence that Jaime raped Tyrion's wife. Not sure where you got that from. He even says in Book 2 he's only ever lain with one woman which is Cersei. 

I also don't see Tywin Lannister as particularly evil. His complete destruction of the Houses Reyne and Tarbeck were necessary to restore the reputation the Lannisters once had - Tytos had reduced House Lannister to such a low point that they were verging on destruction themselves, soon they would be completely overthrown by their vassal houses because they simply no longer commanded respect. Tywin had to send a clear message that would put a stop to any rebellions from vassal houses and restore their reputation as a powerful great house that commanded respect. He is pragmatic and ruthless but I don't see him as evil. Ultimately Tywin wants a peaceful realm - he just wants to ensure the Lannisters are the ones ruling it and remain doing so for many generations 

The gangrape of Tysha, Elia and her babies and his raid on the Riverlands will always be what I go to to show the evidence of his evil. 

[Dofs]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don't like that his character development is so often called a redemption arc. The start of this so-called redemption arc more or less coincides with the introduction of his PoVs. So the truth is, we don't know whether he was, inside his own head, exactly as he is when we get inside his head. 

Jaime does not have one arc, he has multiple. Before I also disagreed with people who claimed that Jaime had a redemption arc but after thinking about it I decided that he does have one, it's just his character is not solely about it. You can't analyse Jaime only through the lenses of him having a redemption arc or not.

15 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Have you forgotten this line of Jaime's?  It's from the same chapter where Jaime threatens Edmure with torture murder, with his wife dying beside him (in his previous chapter, he had threatened to send Edmure his infant son with a trubuchet):

"Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out. If I were to threaten to hit you unless you shut your mouth, and you presumed to speak, what do you think I'd do?"

 No, it's not the line from the chapter you are claiming it to be. It's the line from the chapter when he threatened to trebuchet Edmure's baby, spoken in front of Edmure so that later he would not call his bluff.