Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

340 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

When Maegor and Aenys are making processions through their kingdom, do they visit the North? Does Aegon for that matter? Or is Jaehaerys and Alysanne still the only two known Targaryens to visit the North proper.

Aegon's last journey was to Winterfell in 33 AC.

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3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

It is a little bit different. The point of confusion is that some people think the calendar starts with Aegon's Landing, but actually it starts with his coronation in Oldtown two years later. As a maester you know that kind of stuff, but even if you get it wrong, Aegon becoming 60 in 33 AC just does not work.

So on his coronation he should be 32 then right? So in 33 Ac he should be 65 no?

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3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Aegon's last journey was to Winterfell in 33 AC.

Hmmm. I missed that some how. Twoiaf?

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33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So on his coronation he should be 32 then right? So in 33 Ac he should be 65 no?

No. English is not my mother tongue and now it becomes mathematical. That is not a good combination, but I will try. 

For Aegon's age the start of the new calendar actually is not important at all. You have a fix point - may that be the Landing or the coronation. Aegon was born in 27 BFP (Before Fix Point). For simplicity let us assume he was born on the first day of the sixth month. So he becomes 1 year old in 26 BFP, 2 years old in 25 BFP and 26 on the first day of the sixth month in 1 BFP. Half a year later we reach the fix point, Aegon is 26,5 years old. The first day after the fix point is the first day of the first month in 1 AFP (After Fix Point). So Aegon becomes 27 on the first day of the sixth month in 1 AFP. He becomes 28 in 2 AFP and 29 in 3 AFP and thus 59 in 33 AFP. It does not matter if your fix point is the Landing or the coronation, as long as you keep it consistent. If you use the Landing for the events prior to your fix point and the coronation for the events thereafter, you get a bloody mess. But that is not what happened here. They just forgot that there is no year 0.

And yes, the Winterfell journey was mentioned in the Worldbook.

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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Major question for Elio:

Why does TWOIAF specify that "Lord Daemon Velaryon" was the first major lord to openly declare against Maegor, after which the rest of the Great Houses followed in rapid succession...but TSotD only calls him "Lord Velaryon?  (Alyssa's father Aethan died somehow before this)

You've speculated in this thread that Dozois was working off the same early draft notes you first received when working on TWOIAF ( he chose Rogar while you chose Robar because they're used inconsistently, etc.)

So what I'm asking is about your "process" working on TWOIAF:

Was "Daemon" Velaryon added in a later version of this GRRM gave you that Dozois didn't get?  Or were parts of this edited for space?

Or, alternatively, did you know Alyssa's uncle who succeeded Aethan is named "Daemon" from some unreleased family tree?

...I don't want you to share unreleased info :) I just want to clarify if this is a "known unknown" or an "unknown unknown".  There are things GRRM never told you (what happened to the dragons who survived the Dance, for example) but then there's "we know, but won't say publicly because it hasn't been released".

Because the Velaryon family tree is going to be a real quagmire for the wiki development, ack, so this is a major point on the "to do" list.   There's always another Velaryon floating around, amirite?

But the question is:  if Dozois was working off the same first draft you were when you wrote TWOIAF based on it, why does your version give the full name "Daemon Velaryon" when his earlier version does not?

Separate question:

As Lord Varys linked:

Was the High Septon Ceryse's paternal or maternal uncle?  Was he Manfred Hightower's son, or Manfred's goodbrother-by-law?  

We'll need to figure this out when making the Hightower family tree on the wiki.  From that other reference to Manfred it sounds like the High Septon is Morgan and Martyn's brother.  Please clarify.

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On 10/11/2017 at 8:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

But back to that Quicksilver conundrum for a moment:

This whole thing really seems to be an unsolvable puzzle.

We know that Quicksilver was on Dragonstone when Aenys died there, because Visenya actually urged Aenys to his dragon to rain fire down on the Starry Sept. She wouldn't have done that if Aegon and Rhaena had taken the dragon with them on their progress - which doesn't make a lot of sense, anyway.

We know Aegon spends the entire time prior to his campaign in the Westerlands so there is essentially no chance for him to get to Dragonstone to claim the dragon there. Assuming he made that rather long journey - although somewhat shorter if Rhaena took him across the contingent on Dreamfyre - one wonders whether Aegon would return with Quicksilver to the Westerlands rather than, say, take possession of Dragonstone and KL in the absence of Maegor - who, at that time, was in Oldtown.

In that sense the best conundrum to resolve that issue is that someone must have brought Quicksilver to Aegon at Casterly Rock to mount him. But who could that have been? And how might that have worked? I daresay that a dragon transport by ship is out of the question. Quicksilver was only a quarter the size of Balerion but that is still not exactly small. Who would have tried to transport a riderless dragon this size on his ship? How could Quicksilver have been prevented from burning the ship down?

 

While I don't usually indulge in spoilers, I won't have time to read Sons of the Dragon for a while so I am making an exception by perusing this thread. 

I think there are very strong hints that some Targaryens are able to bond with animals in a fashion similar to skin changing and/or that a part of them survives in the animal after the person dies.  In particular, the descriptions of Balerion the Cat (owned by Princess Rhaenys, daughter of Rhaegar and Elia) hint at the possibility that Rhaenys continues to exist in a fashion similar to the "second life" Varymyr Sixskins describes in the prologue to ADWD.  

So a possible explanation for what you are calling the Quicksilver conundrum is that King Aenys had a second life in Quicksilver and that it was his decision to seek out Prince Aegon so that Aegon could bond with the dragon.

On 10/9/2017 at 10:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, and we get all the names of the champions during the Trial of Seven. I don't recall them right now but the first one to agree to stand with Maegor is a commoner named Dick Bean - a very touching scene - who shames the knights into standing with Maegor (the Kingsguard could not accompany Maegor and Visenya to KL on dragonback).

Very much looking forward to reading this.  From your description, this sounds like confirmation of a very obvious point I have made before:  the (R+L=J related) theory that one member of the kings guard must always be with the king is ridiculous given that the kings guard was created (and their vow was formulated) at a time when the king regularly hopped on a dragon leaving all the kings guard members behind on the ground.  

On 10/11/2017 at 1:05 AM, SFDanny said:

Just finished my first read of TSotD and I'm quite happy to have new ASoI&F material to discuss. I have to say I see absolutely no evidence here that there was an agreement between Aegon, Aenys, or Maegor with the Faith to limit Targaryen marriage customs either in the area of polygamy or in what the Faith considers to be incest. To the contrary,  we are told the following:

A new kingdom that had grown through the years of Aegon's rule to accept the Targaryens did these things differently. 

The closest to any agreement we see is a communication between the High Septon and Aegon about Visenya's proposal of a marriage between the twelve year old Prince Maegor and the new born Rhaena. Not only is there objection to the marriage from the Faith, but also from Rhaena's parents, Prince Aenys and Princess Alyssa. With the suggestion of Ceryse Hightower as an alternative bride, Aegon agrees to this second match for Maegor in an attempt to keep the Faith's support. But here it is important to note that this concerns incest, not polygamy. We know from the wedding of Aenys's children that there is no support for a ban on such marriages that the Targaryens have agreed to.

I could go on, and if LV or anyone wants to dispute my reading of the text, I will happily do so. Loving to finally discuss new Martin material.

I would not expect to find confirmation of the "polygamy is illegal" theory in a book covering the reigns of Aenys and Maegor.  The theory is that polygamy was formally outlawed during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator, which came after both Aenys and Maegor were dead.  

You are familiar with this theory.  In short, we know from prior books that Jahaerys earned the honorific "the Conciliator" because he made peace with the Faith and passed a uniform code of laws for all of Westeros.  When he did that, he did not annul his then-existing incestuous marriage.  But we also know that neither he nor any other Targaryen king who followed him even tried to enter into a polygamous marriage, and it never occurred to anyone that Robb Stark could keep his betrothal vow to the Freys after he married Jeyne Westering.  This suggests that polygamy was formally outlawed during Jaehaerys' reign.  So we should not look for confirmation of that law in Sons of the Dragon. 

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Alysanne proved very fertile. If she hadn't been, perhaps Jaehaerys would have opted to undo the marriage, or take a second bride, but probably not -- they were very much in love. Had Alysanne been barren, I'm going to guess Jaehaerys would have ended up having the offspring of one of the female Targaryens groomed as successor, if not the female Targaryens themselves. I suspect the speculation that Rhaena married a Farman is both  an explanation for why Jaehaerys did not marry her himself and an avenue for his having had some kin.

Given how easily people are suggesting Daenerys take up polygamous marriages, I think it's fairly asinine to assume that no one ever _suggested_ it in the past; a lack of examples doesn't mean it was not, at some point, mooted. Daemon Blackfyre may have well believed his father would have supported his marrying Daenerys when he already had a wife, after all. 

But it never happened, doubtless because in all the scenarios presented there are perfectly sound reasons for why polygamy wasn't something anyone leapt to. It fell out of favor with the Targaryens for the reasons already stated, whereas to some degree incest did not, and so it just wasn't something anyone chose as a solution within the scope of the reigns from Jaehaerys I to Aerys II.... well, with the one speculated by some for Rhaegar.

I don't find this convincing at all.  Jorah -- no great legal scholar -- is not suggesting to Dany that polygamy would be legal in Westeros.  He is saying that if she is going to conquer Westerns with three dragons, like Aegon the Conqueror did, she can rewrite the rules, the way Aegon the Conqueror did.  And, he is trying to talk her into giving him a dragon and going to bed with him.  

The more relevant conversation is the one Dany has with the Green Grace, where Dany suggests she might marry Hizdahr pursuant to Westerosi rites and the Green Grace says that a marriage that does not comply with Meereenese customs would make Dany a concubine and her children bastards.  The obvious inference is that a child born in Westeros of a marriage falling outside Westerosi norms would also be considered a bastard.

As I indicated above, I am a proponent of the theory that Jaehaerys formally outlawed polygamy when he promulgated the uniform code of laws as a way to appease the Faith because he needed to maintain the legality of his incestuous marriage but did not have any use for polygamy.  That is the most logical explanation for the fact that no Targaryen king after Maegor attempted to take a second wife.  

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Prince Maegor didn't get what he wanted. And that was always my point. And neither did Prince Rhaegar, in my opinion. The man didn't had a dragon nor the support of his father nor the ear and trust of the High Septon.

This we don't know yet, we don't know literally anything about the High Septon who served during Aerys's reign.

 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

 

I told you I won't debate this matter with you further. We've been arguing this matter for years and I no longer care to discuss it with you. As I find the conversation unproductive.

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9 hours ago, Ran said:

Polygamy fell out not because it became illicit for the Targaryens, but because: 1)  the Targaryen family got a lot bigger over time and 2) the need to bind the realm led to marrying out rather more often than Viserys would have had you believe in AGoT. Aegon and his sisters were the last Targaryens in the world, while Maegor was a monster. Why would anyone want to replicate what Maegor did? Why would anyone feel compelled to do what Aegon did?


I don't expect there was ever a formal legal document from the crown or a Great Council proclaiming that the Targaryens would never indulge in polygamy again. It simply fell by the wayside. But you can look at the novels and see characters entertaining it now for Daenerys, for example -- Jorah suggests it, and Dany even considers it in ADwD -- in a way that shows that there seems to be a very pragmatic view on this. 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Alysanne proved very fertile. If she hadn't been, perhaps Jaehaerys would have opted to undo the marriage, or take a second bride, but probably not -- they were very much in love. Had Alysanne been barren, I'm going to guess Jaehaerys would have ended up having the offspring of one of the female Targaryens groomed as successor, if not the female Targaryens themselves. I suspect the speculation that Rhaena married a Farman is both  an explanation for why Jaehaerys did not marry her himself and an avenue for his having had some kin.

Given how easily people are suggesting Daenerys take up polygamous marriages, I think it's fairly asinine to assume that no one ever _suggested_ it in the past; a lack of examples doesn't mean it was not, at some point, mooted. Daemon Blackfyre may have well believed his father would have supported his marrying Daenerys when he already had a wife, after all. 

But it never happened, doubtless because in all the scenarios presented there are perfectly sound reasons for why polygamy wasn't something anyone leapt to. It fell out of favor with the Targaryens for the reasons already stated, whereas to some degree incest did not, and so it just wasn't something anyone chose as a solution within the scope of the reigns from Jaehaerys I to Aerys II.... well, with the one speculated by some for Rhaegar.

Thank you Ran, I find this explanation more than satisfactory and very sensible. And I agree with you in this.

 

I find the idea of an official outlawing of polygamy unlikely given that the entire royal line after Maegor descends from the second wife of Aegon Targaryen, to outlaw polygamy would invalidate their claim to the IT given that they all from that point on descended from Rhaenys. If polygamy were to become officially proscribed for Targaryens Aenys would posthumously become a bastard and thus Jaehaerys & Allysanne would be mere children of a bastard.  

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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4 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I.  

The more relevant conversation is the one Dany has with the Green Grace, where Dany suggests she might marry Hizdahr pursuant to Westerosi rites and the Green Grace says that a marriage that does not comply with Meereenese customs would make Dany a concubine and her children bastards.  The obvious inference is that a child born in Westeros of a marriage falling outside Westerosi norms would also be considered a bastard.

 

 

This is incorrect, the laws and customs of Meereen are not the laws and customs of Westeros, where there is a unique history.  We have several examples of people wed outside of Westeros who then return to the continent and their marriages are perfectly accepted and upheld. Viserys II is a good example he married Larra Rogare in Lys and when they returned to Westeros no one claimed them unwed. Similarly, Orton Merryweather married his Myrish wife Taena during his exile. We can, therefore, presume their marriage was performed under Myrish custom. No one thinks their marriage is invalid. Similarly, it seems Maggy the Frog was wed to her Spicer husband in the Essos as it is said he brought his wife back to Westeros. 

Alys Harroway was married to Maegor in a Valyrian ceremony, wed by Fire & Blood we are told.  And whilst people chuntetered and tutted and decried it for the polygamy. They were accepted to be married as Glydayn makes clear in this very text. 

I suspect the reason why Westeros chooses to honour all forms of marriage is due to their duality of religion within the Seven Kingdoms. In a place where half the country geographically at least follows a different faith, you can't go around denouncing the other faiths marriages. You'd not get very far trying to forge a political alliance with a house from the North if you are going around calling them all bastards. If an Andalised first man house decided that all those married under the Heart tree are illegitimately wed they'd be making their own ancestors bastards.  

Meereen might have their standards as to what they accept in terms of marriages under other faiths. But Westeros is altogether less fussy. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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8 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The last seven years of the reign of Aegon the Conqueror were peaceful ones. After the frustrations of his Dornish War the king accepted the continued independence of Dorne, and flew to Sunspear on Balerion on the tenth anniversary of the peace accords to celebrate a “feast of friendship” with Deria Martell, the reigning Princess of Dorne.

Did the First Dornish War not end in 13 AC? So the tenth anniversary would take place in 23 AC. 

 

Yes. I read this section as an explanation as to why Aegon did not go to war again with Dorne in the later years of his reign, by explaining that after 13 AC, he decided to end his attempts, and that the sincerity of the decision was exemplified by Aegon celebrating the tenth anniversary of the peace (in 23 AC) in Dorne.

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As to the discussion of Dragons. One crucial factor which seems to be being forgotten about here is that the Dragons themselves have a great deal to do with who ends up riding them.  The question of why Aegon never had a dragon prior to Quicksilver can easily be answered by assuming none of the 6 (8 after Maegor & Aenys's reconciliation) wanted him.  Can someone remind me, this 6 then 8 are not including Ballerion and Vhagar? But hatchlings since Aegon's conquest? 

So we have 6 dragons hatched and one - Quicksilver becomes Aenys' mount. Leaving 5 which Maegor rejects - or who simply reject him. Don't forget what an egomaniac he was. He may well have claimed he was waiting when in fact he had unsuccessfully approached one or more Dragons in private.

I propose The Cannibal must be one of these 5. I know there are rumours he was living on Dragonstone prior to the Targaryens arriving but I find this unlikely. Not to mention his likeness to Ballerion and Drogon makes me think he was indeed from a clutch sired by the Black dread. With Dany's dragons being old Targ eggs Varys has "acquired" or which the Blackfyre's took with them arriving in her possession via Illyrio. 

Dreamfyre must be one of the 6 too, she is big enough for Rhaena to ride her and Rhaena has been joined with her for some years. We are told she was a dragon rider at 12 but do not forget this does not mean she claimed her at 12, only that she and Dreamfyre were both mature enough to fly together at that point. 

As to why Rhaena had a dragon bonded to her as a young girl but her brother Aegon did not, see my point regarding the fact Dragons have an awful lot to do with who rides them if none of the others wanted Aegon he'd be forced to wait. And frankly, if the other dragons included Cannibal I can see why he waited!!! 

So we have 3 of the six and we can consider GreyGhost as a fourth. We are not told their size or age iirc in TP&TQ? But certainly, GreyGhost seems a peaceful soul who may or may not be one of the 6 who hatched during Aegon's reign. I can definitely see GreyGhost rejecting Maegor as a mount! In fact I can see Cannibal and GreyGhost as analogous of Aenys & Maegor themselves. Greyghost just wanted to be left alone to fish and fly and doesn't really want to be around people. Cannibal is a monstrous beast intent on destruction. The fact neither prince ever rode the Dragon who most represents them is I think quite supportive of viewing them as hatchlings who maybe hatched around the time the boys were each born but neither bonded their counterpart instead are left as a poignant reminder of the sons of the Dragons (cough, or should I maybe venture the Targaryens sisters sons) very different natures. 

number 5 I might venture to propose Meleys, she was definitely seen as one of the oldest Dragons during the Dance. Again she maybe just didn't like the smell of Aegon, I can imagine Aenys taking his son to the hatchlings on the Dragonmount and hoping one might take to the boy as Dreamfyre had Rhaena, but non coming forth to the lad. We get told Aenys's himself was given Quicksilver. But that is quite ambiguous. We know from TRP and TP&TQ that Dragons readily reject riders they don't like the feel of. I doubt early Targaryens had some superior power to bend the Dragons will. I propose this phrasing by Glydayn that Aenys's was given Quicksiler is just a turn of phrase when in fact Aegon likely took Aenys's to see the hatchlings hoping one might venture forth and bond with the boy. Luckily for him, one did. Obviously we do know that Meleys went on to be Rhaenys's mount. there are 26 years howether between Jaehaerys reign begining and Rhaeys's birth, meaning it likely Meleys had riders prior to her; this ought to be obvious given we are told she is an old dragon during the Dance. And there are candidates. Aerae or Rhaella being two possible candidates. 

Leaving a 6th and final candidate to be found and I'd propose Caraxes, who again is a huge dragon, half the size of Vhagar, but that makes sense given these hatchlings are born when Vhaghar herself is already a huge formidable dragon. if he was born at the time of Aegon I's reign then he'd be about a hundred-ish during the dance which makes sense for a huge Dragon who is non the less nowhere near as huge as a Vhagar who would be about 80 or so years his senior being hatched as she was in 52BC.

This lack of riders for the 6 hatched during Aegon's reign explains why two Dragons went feral, No one was there to mount them, or dared in the Cannibals case. 

I propose that GreyGhost was so elusive & Cannibal so dangerous that when the two twins came to claim a mount Meleys & Caraxes were the more available options. I hope that the girls did each take one of the beasts. But I guess that is a story for another day (ie: Fire & Blood) maybe Rhaena retrieved Rhaella from her fate as a Septa, I do hope so and in that case, I'd like to see the twins claim these dragons as it gives each a rider prior to those we know they had. Surely Daemon & Rhaenys' would not be their first riders?

I think surely the longer a Dragon goes riderless the harder they'd prove to claim? As seen in TP&TQ.

 Bringing me to Vermithor he could be one of the two who hatched during the two years of joint rule by the brothers? With Silverwing the other perhaps. I think there is a nice symmetry with the two dragons who were taken as representative of peace going on to be the mounts of the two Targaryens who did indeed bring years of peace and plenty to the realm. 

Leaving just Sheepstealer, who hatched early in Jaehaerys life, maybe just shortly after he took the IT? as it stands no one claimed him for 80 years! indicating that he hatched during a time when potential dragon riders were few. Which makes sense if I am right and Aerae & Rhaella took Maraxes and Meleys. Maybe Sheepstealer hatched and went wild before any of Jaehaerys & Allysannes children were old enough to try to claim him?

I'm still annoyed that we did not get a description of Vhagar in this story. 

Edited by The Weirwoods Eyes

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7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Major question for Elio:

Why does TWOIAF specify that "Lord Daemon Velaryon" was the first major lord to openly declare against Maegor, after which the rest of the Great Houses followed in rapid succession...but TSotD only calls him "Lord Velaryon?  (Alyssa's father Aethan died somehow before this)

You've speculated in this thread that Dozois was working off the same early draft notes you first received when working on TWOIAF ( he chose Rogar while you chose Robar because they're used inconsistently, etc.)

So what I'm asking is about your "process" working on TWOIAF:

Was "Daemon" Velaryon added in a later version of this GRRM gave you that Dozois didn't get?  Or were parts of this edited for space?

Or, alternatively, did you know Alyssa's uncle who succeeded Aethan is named "Daemon" from some unreleased family tree?

I personally don't see any contradiction of any kind here. So the guy is specified by name in one edition, but not in the other. That shouldn't matter.

Is there anything that suggests that there is an inconsistency here?

 

7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

...I don't want you to share unreleased info :) I just want to clarify if this is a "known unknown" or an "unknown unknown".  There are things GRRM never told you (what happened to the dragons who survived the Dance, for example) but then there's "we know, but won't say publicly because it hasn't been released".

Because the Velaryon family tree is going to be a real quagmire for the wiki development, ack, so this is a major point on the "to do" list.   There's always another Velaryon floating around, amirite?

Not really. The only thing we don't know is how Daemon and Alyssa are related. The current family tree displays that properly.

 

7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Separate question:

As Lord Varys linked:

Was the High Septon Ceryse's paternal or maternal uncle?  Was he Manfred Hightower's son, or Manfred's goodbrother-by-law?  

We'll need to figure this out when making the Hightower family tree on the wiki.  From that other reference to Manfred it sounds like the High Septon is Morgan and Martyn's brother.  Please clarify.

Again, I don't see anything here that has not already been solved. Ran's answer on Lord Varys's question (the next post in the link) is clear. Morgan is Martyn's brother, not the High Septon's. That's the error there. Patrice is the maiden aunt of Martyn and Morgan.

A younger brother of Morgan and Martyn took his septon's vows. Whether he rose to be the High Septon, we don't know. That's never confirmed.

Manfred Hightower, Lord of Oldtown, was a cautious lord, and godly. One of his younger sons served with the Warrior's Sons, and another had only recently taken vows as a septon.  (TWOIAF, The Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest)

The High Septon who lived during the Conquest died in 11 AC, and six others took the office between 11 AC and 37 AC. The High Septon who held the office in 24 and 25 AC was the uncle of Ceryse Hightower:

Queen Visenya proposed that Maegor be wed to Aenys's first child, Rhaena, but the High Septon mounted a vigorous protest, and Maegor was wed instead to the High Septon's own niece, Lady Ceryse of House Hightower. (TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I)

Ceryse was the daughter of Martyn Hightower, the Lord of Oldtown. She was advanced by her uncle, the High Septon, after he protested the betrothal of the thirteenyear-old Prince Maegor to Maegor's newborn niece, Princess Rhaena. Ceryse and Maegor were married in 25 AC. (TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Maegor I)

[...] and when word reached Oldtown’s Starry Sept, the High Septon sent a raven, warning the king that such a marriage would not be looked upon with favor by the Faith. He proposed a different bride for Maegor: Ceryse Hightower, maiden daughter to the Lord of Oldtown (and the High Septon’s own niece). (The Sons of the Dragon)

We don't know whether this High Septon was kin by marriage, or kin by blood.

But with six different High Septons holding the office in between 11 AC and 37 AC, it seems highly likely and logical that the man who was High Septon in 24 AC (when the possible betrothal between Maegor and Rhaena was protested) was no longer in office in 43 AC (when the High Septon was kin by marriage to House Hightower).

The High Septon who mysteriously dies in 43 AC (the date of 44 AC given in TWOIAF has been confirmed to have been incorrect) was definitely "kin by marriage". But exactly how this relation goes, we are not told.

The conflict thus averted flared up again a generation later, however, during the bloody struggle between the Faith and the Conqueror's second son, the aptly named King Maegor the Cruel. The High Septon during the first years of Maegor's reign was kin by marriage to the Hightowers. His sudden death in 44 AC—shortly after King Maegor had threatened to incinerate the Starry Sept with dragonfire in his fury over His High Holiness's condemnation of his later marriages—is considered quite fortuitous, as it allowed Lord Martyn Hightower to open his gates before Balerion and Vhagar unleashed their flames. (TWOIAF, The Reach: Oldtown)

And Ran's answer has made it clear that the paragraph that follows contains the error that "His High Holiness" was the brother of Morgan and Martyn. He was not.

The unexpected nature of the High Septon's death in 44 AC aroused much suspicion, however, and whispers of murder persist to this day. Some believe His High Holiness was removed by his own brother, Ser Morgan Hightower, commander of the Warrior's Sons in Oldtown (and it is undeniably true that Ser Morgan was the sole Warrior's Son pardoned by King Maegor). Others suspect Lord Martyn's maiden aunt, the Lady Patrice Hightower, though their argument seems to rest upon the belief that poison is a woman's weapon. It has even been suggested that the Citadel might have played a role in the removal of the High Septon, though this seems far-fetched at best. (TWOIAF, The Reach: Oldtown)

That Patrice is the maiden aunt of Martyn (and thus also Morgan), indicates that she was the sister of Lord Manfred, who, by the time of Maegor's second marriage, had already died, after which Lord Martyn had assumed rule of the HIghtower

Nor was His Grace alone in his wroth. Lord Hightower, father of Lady Ceryse, made protest to the king, demanding that Lady Alys be put aside. (The Sons of the Dragon)

(The king had him lay hands on Lady Ceryse’s belly every night, in the hopes that his brother might repent his folly if his lawful wife could be made fertile, but the lady soon grew weary of the nightly ritual and departed King’s Landing for Oldtown, where she rejoined her father in the Hightower.)  (The Sons of the Dragon)

And Manfred, we know, had at least three sons (Martyn, Morgan, and a younger son who took a septon's vows) and at least two daughters.

(Some say that Lord Hightower also offered up the hand of his youngest daughter, which Aegon declined politely, lest it offend his two queens).

The statement in The Sons of the Dragon that Ceryse was the sister of the Lord of the Hightower seems to be an error.

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As Rhaenys says. Though unclear, the phrasing is simply indicating examples of why the realm was at peace: he had settled things with Dorne earlier, he spent time on building projects, etc. 

I think I've already indicated that the High Septon was Ceryse's maternal uncle, and that Martyn and Morgan were brothers, while the Lady Patrice was sister to Martyn and Morgan's father. 

I had a fair bit here about the Hightowers, but now I see there was a decision for TWoIaF. I'm going to have to go through a bunch of notes and drafts to figure out the process, but will flag this for F&B v1 to try and make sure George thinks about it again when finalizing the text there.

"Some believe His High Holiness was removed by his own brother, Ser Morgan Hightower, " Rhaenys, that was corrected in later editions. It now reads: "Some believe His High Holiness was removed by Lord Hightower's brother, Ser Morgan"

Re: Daemon Velaryon turning against Maegor, it looks like the call was made to name him so, but in retrospect I suspect this was in fact supposed to be Aethan. That said, it feels like another thing to flag for George, as it's possible he indicated to Anne that Aethan was dead by this point and his successor was the one who turned.

Edited by Ran

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@Rhaenys_Targaryen It is an interesting idea that the High Septon in 23 AC was a different one than the one during the Faith Militant Rebellion. I never thought about that, because both times he is mentioned as Ceryse's uncle, but I guess this would work. The only way to learn the truth is probably waiting for Fire and Blood.

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7 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Major question for Elio:

Why does TWOIAF specify that "Lord Daemon Velaryon" was the first major lord to openly declare against Maegor, after which the rest of the Great Houses followed in rapid succession...but TSotD only calls him "Lord Velaryon?  (Alyssa's father Aethan died somehow before this)

I guess George gave Ran/Linda special information on this.

And since it is fun another interesting question:

@Ran

Your wording in TWoIaF indicates that Alyssa Velaryon had indeed a Targaryen mother of unknown identity. Can you confirm that as canon? The way George phrases it in TSotD indicates that Aenys and Alyssa are only cousins through Aegon's mother Valaena Velaryon (who herself had had a Targaryen mother of unknown identity, of course).

We have oft used your words there as basis for speculation that Aethan Velaryon must have married some Targaryen cousin. A much younger sister of Lord Aerion, perhaps.

The latter idea would make them much closer cousins that the former. I'm pretty sure you did ask George about stuff like that, didn't you?

6 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

So a possible explanation for what you are calling the Quicksilver conundrum is that King Aenys had a second life in Quicksilver and that it was his decision to seek out Prince Aegon so that Aegon could bond with the dragon.

That doesn't convince me at all. If Aenys was living a second life in Quicksilver he and Aegon would have flown away from Balerion as quickly as their wings could carry them. Not to mention that the much easier way to help his sons would have been to bond with Prince Viserys who could then still have supported Rhaena and Aegon in the West.

Assuming Viserys dragonless - as he appears - for another stupid reason.

6 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

Very much looking forward to reading this.  From your description, this sounds like confirmation of a very obvious point I have made before:  the (R+L=J related) theory that one member of the kings guard must always be with the king is ridiculous given that the kings guard was created (and their vow was formulated) at a time when the king regularly hopped on a dragon leaving all the kings guard members behind on the ground.

Well, we never really needed confirmation for that. It was always obvious. Although especially Visenya and Maegor could have transported a few people on Vhagar and Balerion. They were big enough for that. But they did not do that in that situation. And with smaller dragons - like Syrax, Sunfyre, etc. - the whole thing would become pretty much impossible.

6 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

I don't find this convincing at all.  Jorah -- no great legal scholar -- is not suggesting to Dany that polygamy would be legal in Westeros.  He is saying that if she is going to conquer Westerns with three dragons, like Aegon the Conqueror did, she can rewrite the rules, the way Aegon the Conqueror did.  And, he is trying to talk her into giving him a dragon and going to bed with him.  

That is not an irrelevant point. You know I don't think polygamy was formally outlawed by Jaehaerys I. That wasn't really necessary. It was never legal from the Faith's point of view to begin with. And if we take the incest thing then it is quite clear that incest remained a crime and a sin. What made it incestuous marriages possible was just that the kings arranged them, and thus gave the people involved permission - or their approval after the fact, as Aegon V did with Jaehaerys and Shaera - to indulge in that kind of behavior.

A twisted Targaryen king - say, one like Aerys II or Aegon IV, who really grew to resent his ingrate son - could very well have condemned a son who married his sister, and punished him for the crime of incest as the scriptures of the Faith demand.

And I'm sure a similar thing could have done with polygamy.

But the question at hand really is the material reason why the hell especially the dragonriding Targaryens didn't pursue the polygamy thing. As I listed above, there were situations where the idea must have come up to resolve a problem. And it is not that the law of a king could have stopped another king. Aegon IV - who surely must have been tempted to marry at least one of his mistresses - could have unmade any law Jaehaerys I made. Not to mention Viserys I who didn't give shit about the decrees of the Great Council which essentially made him king.

6 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

This we don't know yet, we don't know literally anything about the High Septon who served during Aerys's reign.

We know that the man was closer to Aerys II than Prince Rhaegar. Aerys II humbled himself and made walk of repentance to the Great Sept. That kind of thing must have gotten him very much into the good graces of the High Septon since that symbolically strengthens the power and authority of the Faith.

Allowing a Targaryen prince to take a second wife - which goes against the doctrines of the Faith - means that you weaken the authority and power of the Faith. 

In addition, it is quite clear that the permission of the High Septon wouldn't be worth much without the permission of the king. If the High Septon said 'yes, of course' to Rhaegar-Lyanna, and Aerys II said 'no way' then the High Septon would change his mind to 'no way' immediately. The Great Sept of Baelor stands in KL. Not on Dragonstone.

But the relevance of this question only is whether the Faith and pious lords and smallfolk of Westeros would actually recognize a child born by Lyanna as a legitimately born royal prince if there was some sort of wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna (which I think there was). I very much doubt that.

In fact, I'm pretty sure if Maegor's women had given him children there would have been a lot of uncertainty as to who was worthy to succeed him. If Ceryse had suddenly given him a child she could claim it was the heir because she was the first and thus the most important/only lawful wife. A child by Tyanna could be dismissed - after her and Maegor's deaths, of course - as being of too lowborn on his mother's side, and a similar case could be made for a Westerling and Costayne child.

And, of course, all those children could be dismissed as heirs because of the polygamous nature of their marriage. The Catholic view on the matter - which also seems to be the Faith's view of the matter - is that only the first marriage of a bigamist or polygamist is valid. That is why anyone who divorces and takes another spouse is effectively committing continuous adultery by entertaining a concubine.

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I told you I won't debate this matter with you further. We've been arguing this matter for years and I no longer care to discuss it with you. As I find the conversation unproductive.

I wasn't discussing with. I was clarifying my position which you misrepresented.

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I find the idea of an official outlawing of polygamy unlikely given that the entire royal line after Maegor descends from the second wife of Aegon Targaryen, to outlaw polygamy would invalidate their claim to the IT given that they all from that point on descended from Rhaenys. If polygamy were to become officially proscribed for Targaryens Aenys would posthumously become a bastard and thus Jaehaerys & Allysanne would be mere children of a bastard.  

That is actually not true. Rhaenys is the younger wife of Aegon the Conqueror, not necessarily 'the second wife'. We don't know when and how he married his sisters - I imagine it must have been one ceremony, like Maegor did with the black brides - but there is no reason to believe Rhaenys came after Visenya in any temporal sense there. And if Rhaenys actually happened to be the first wife then the marriage between Aegon and Visenya would have been invalid, not the one between Aegon and Rhaenys.

And no, if you outlaw practice p at point in time t you do not retroactively make all people indulging in practice p criminals. The First Night, for instance, only became a crime after King Aegon decreed it was a crime.

Or take the incest. Aegon V or any other Targaryen king could sure as hell make Targaryen incest a crime punishable by death in the future. But he would thus not invalidate the marriages of his ancestors who had been brother and sister.

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Alys Harroway was married to Maegor in a Valyrian ceremony, wed by Fire & Blood we are told.  And whilst people chuntetered and tutted and decried it for the polygamy. They were accepted to be married as Glydayn makes clear in this very text. 

You delude yourself there. Nobody accepted this marriage before Maegor beat people into submission. If you treated me the way Maegor treated the Faith I'd sing your tune, too, at least in people. But I'd still call you 'polygamous, incestuous abomination' behind your back, and never bow to the abominable bastards from such unions.

Assuming I had an issue with polygamy and incest, of course.

The Faith's concept of marriage sees marriage as a union between one woman and one man. That's it. That's the important part. If the Ghiscari and Lyseni, etc. allow polygamy then such unions would be invalid in Westeros.

The issue of this 'blood and fire' marriage of Maegor's is not the rite, it is the fact that he took a second wife.

In that sense the Westerosi seem to be somewhat more tolerant than the Meereenese. Although it seems quite clear if Aegon the Conqueror had taken a Westerosi wife - say, Sharra Arryn or the Hightower daughter - they would have insisted that he marry her properly in a sept the way the followers of the Seven do. This barbarous 'fire and blood' stuff was no longer done after Maegar-Alys. Not even when Maegor married Tyanna and subsequently the black brides.

And it is out of the question that anyone later on - like Rhaegar, say - revived that ancient stuff.

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I suspect the reason why Westeros chooses to honour all forms of marriage is due to their duality of religion within the Seven Kingdoms. In a place where half the country geographically at least follows a different faith, you can't go around denouncing the other faiths marriages. You'd not get very far trying to forge a political alliance with a house from the North if you are going around calling them all bastards. If an Andalised first man house decided that all those married under the Heart tree are illegitimately wed they'd be making their own ancestors bastards.  

They are not as tolerant as you seem to think. Salt marriages are not seen as proper marriages outside the Iron Islands. There is a different marriage concept between the Ironborn (more complex, room for polygamy) and the rigid monogamous concept of marriage of the followers of the Seven. The tolerance only extends to the accepted religions of Westeros - meaning the old gods and the new gods. Whatever the promiscuity the Summer Islanders consider 'marriage' is most likely not accepted as such by either the First Men nor the Andals.

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Yes. I read this section as an explanation as to why Aegon did not go to war again with Dorne in the later years of his reign, by explaining that after 13 AC, he decided to end his attempts, and that the sincerity of the decision was exemplified by Aegon celebrating the tenth anniversary of the peace (in 23 AC) in Dorne.

That would be a very difficult reading in the context of the paragraph. If that's what is meant the sentence should come up when the early 20s are discussed. Or it should be marked as a short episode, looking back in time to the year 23 AC.

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7 hours ago, The Twinslayer said:

While I don't usually indulge in spoilers, I won't have time to read Sons of the Dragon for a while so I am making an exception by perusing this thread. 

I think there are very strong hints that some Targaryens are able to bond with animals in a fashion similar to skin changing and/or that a part of them survives in the animal after the person dies.  In particular, the descriptions of Balerion the Cat (owned by Princess Rhaenys, daughter of Rhaegar and Elia) hint at the possibility that Rhaenys continues to exist in a fashion similar to the "second life" Varymyr Sixskins describes in the prologue to ADWD.  

So a possible explanation for what you are calling the Quicksilver conundrum is that King Aenys had a second life in Quicksilver and that it was his decision to seek out Prince Aegon so that Aegon could bond with the dragon.

Very much looking forward to reading this.  From your description, this sounds like confirmation of a very obvious point I have made before:  the (R+L=J related) theory that one member of the kings guard must always be with the king is ridiculous given that the kings guard was created (and their vow was formulated) at a time when the king regularly hopped on a dragon leaving all the kings guard members behind on the ground.  

I would not expect to find confirmation of the "polygamy is illegal" theory in a book covering the reigns of Aenys and Maegor.  The theory is that polygamy was formally outlawed during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator, which came after both Aenys and Maegor were dead.  

You are familiar with this theory.  In short, we know from prior books that Jahaerys earned the honorific "the Conciliator" because he made peace with the Faith and passed a uniform code of laws for all of Westeros.  When he did that, he did not annul his then-existing incestuous marriage.  But we also know that neither he nor any other Targaryen king who followed him even tried to enter into a polygamous marriage, and it never occurred to anyone that Robb Stark could keep his betrothal vow to the Freys after he married Jeyne Westering.  This suggests that polygamy was formally outlawed during Jaehaerys' reign.  So we should not look for confirmation of that law in Sons of the Dragon. 

Is this talked about else where? It's an idea i find interesting.

Not that i think Aegon went into Quicksilver for the reasons your suggesting, but this is over all an idea i have in general about dragons and their eggs being seeded by the souls of dead Targaryens. 

If Rhaenys did indeed go into her cat, it would mean fire isn't needed possibly to slip into the eggs either. Just merely their presence or proximity. Which is what i think happened with Viserys, Drogo, and Rhaego. They went into the eggs for Viserion, Drogon, and Rhaegel. Though in the thread i started, it is much debated over how this would work and who could actually do it. Drogo vs Mirri seems to be the big contention. Much debated over when the seeding happened too, some citing the fire while i cite simple proximity and maybe fire as even Viserys is given to flames of some kinds through molten gold. So he was burned to death. Rhaenys though could settle that. 

Sons of the Dragon neither proves this or disproves it from what i can tell. Though it does help pin point timing of some of the hatchings. Half a dozen is hatched on Dragonstone in Aegon's life and that's ok as there are 11 dead Targaryen's prior to Aegon and his sisters. Though fire does seem implied to be still needed to actually hatch the seeded eggs. What Mirri seems to possibly have done, was to bind by blood, Dany and the Dragons through her son Rhaego's half dragon body. Mirri's botched blood magic seems to have bound the dragons (broken since the Dance) by blood to the Targaryens again, or at least any line from Dany.  

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And iv'e gotta say, this book definitely adds fuel to the fire for Preston Jacobs Maester Conspiracy (septons actually). 

Though it seems a toss up where the power really lies. Ultimately, the triumvirates power seems to still come back to House Hightower. Actually, instead of a triumvirate, it seems the Maesters and Septons may not be in on it together though. Just independently connected to House Hightower.  

I thought it was really interesting that House Hightower is even alleged to have killed or had killed the High Septon, which kept the Hightower and Old Town from ever actually facing off against Targaryen forces. 

Also, can't help but wonder if the Hightowers didn't shadow baby that Septon. 

For as much as Maegor was an ass, he definitely seems to be the victim of some one or some peoples manipulations. 

The maesters having dragon knowledge and knowing to keep the Targaryen's from inbreeding and polygamy seems to definitely be at play. I also cant help but believe that certain women were special as they were the ones doing the hatching. 

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33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As to the discussion of Dragons. One crucial factor which seems to be being forgotten about here is that the Dragons themselves have a great deal to do with who ends up riding them.  The question of why Aegon never had a dragon prior to Quicksilver can easily be answered by assuming none of the 6 (8 after Maegor & Aenys's reconciliation) wanted him.  Can someone remind me, this 6 then 8 are not including Ballerion and Vhagar? But hatchlings since Aegon's conquest? 

Those six dragons hatched 'during the later years of Aegon's reign'. They are not necessarily the complete list of dragons that hatched during - or before - his reign. Quicksilver isn't among them. She didn't hatch in the early years of Aegon's reign.

We don't really have all that much evidence for dragons rejecting Targaryen riders. What evidence is there? Alyn Velaryon being rejected by Sheepstealer. Those fools trying to mount the other dragons with little to no Targaryen blood. Not even Quentyn was rejected by the dragon he tried to mount.

Not to mention that the idea is that a grown-up dragon rejecting you usually means he kills you. That's what Drogon nearly did to Daenerys, and Sheepstealer tried to with Alyn, etc.

If your parents give you a hatchling - or a hatchling comes from the egg you receives - there is no reason not to believe that this dragon is yours afterwards. No reason to believe you cannot win its trust and break its resistance. You are the one caring for it, feeding it, and you have 'the magical blood'.

Sure, if you mistreated, hurt, angered the dragon it might grow to resent you. But there is no reason to believe that there is one magical moment where you can claim a dragon, and that you are finished for life with that dragon if it rejects you once.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So we have 6 dragons hatched and one - Quicksilver becomes Aenys' mount. Leaving 5 which Maegor rejects - or who simply reject him. Don't forget what an egomaniac he was. He may well have claimed he was waiting when in fact he had unsuccessfully approached one or more Dragons in private.

That would be very weird. If Maegor had been given a hatchling as a toddler - like Aenys was - he would have inevitably bonded with that. The fact that he wasn't indicates that Visenya had always groomed him to one day claim Balerion (or Vhagar, if she predeceased Aegon). And she would have fed this idea to him as soon as he could understand it. Else the chances are very high that Maegor would have claimed one of the other dragons.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Dreamfyre must be one of the 6 too, she is big enough for Rhaena to ride her and Rhaena has been joined with her for some years. We are told she was a dragon rider at 12 but do not forget this does not mean she claimed her at 12, only that she and Dreamfyre were both mature enough to fly together at that point. 

Exactly. This means that Dreamfyre did not exactly hatch in the year 35 AC - when Rhaena turned twelve - but rather that she was large enough to be flown by Rhaena at that age. And it most likely means she was given to her at a much earlier age.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As to why Rhaena had a dragon bonded to her as a young girl but her brother Aegon did not, see my point regarding the fact Dragons have an awful lot to do with who rides them if none of the others wanted Aegon he'd be forced to wait. And frankly, if the other dragons included Cannibal I can see why he waited!!! 

The young Cannibal wouldn't have been that bad. But again - you usually don't choose your dragon on your own. Your parents give you a hatchling. There is no chance that Aenys and Alyssa didn't give Aegon and Viserys hatchlings if they gave some to Rhaena, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne.

It might be that those dragons died - either of sickness, or during the Poor Fellows attack that led to the siege of Crakehall.

Again, as I've said above, the idea that there was a siege there when Rhaena had her Dreamfyre with her makes no sense, either. They could just have flown away riding her together, or at least Rhaena could have fled, or actually attacked the rabble outside the castle.

That's how some real attack on the dragons could make sense there. The Poor Fellows sneak up to the camp at night, kill Aegon's dragon and injure Dreamfyre who then flies away to safety. The Targaryens have to take shelter in the castle, and Rhaena is only reunited with Dreamfyre after the end of the siege. And if Dreamfyre was somewhat injured and took a time to heal this could also explain why Rhaena wasn't with Aegon on her dragon during his campaign.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So we have 3 of the six and we can consider GreyGhost as a fourth. We are not told their size or age iirc in TP&TQ?

Grey Ghost is the youngest dragon and always gave me the impression to have been hatched during the reign of Jaehaerys I. We know that Sheepstealer - the second oldest of the wild dragons - hatched 'when the Old King was still young'. If Sheepstealer was one of the eight hatchling from the later years of Aegon's reign up to the two who hatched in 37 AC there would be a very small time frame to squeeze him in. He would have to have hatched in 34-37 AC.

Chances are that Grey Ghost is definitely not among them. And we have to keep in mind that there may have been quite a few more wild dragons in the earlier decades anyway. Dragons that were eventually killed and eaten by the growing Cannibal. Grey Ghost seems to be creature who grew up during the Cannibal's reign. He is so secretive because he has to constantly evade the top predator of the island.

However, prior to the building of the Dragonpit, Vhagar and Balerion would have been often on Dragonstone. And the chances are about zero that the Cannibal would have dared attack the hatcheries in those days, considering the vast size of those dragons.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

number 5 I might venture to propose Meleys, she was definitely seen as one of the oldest Dragons during the Dance. Again she maybe just didn't like the smell of Aegon, I can imagine Aenys taking his son to the hatchlings on the Dragonmount and hoping one might take to the boy as Dreamfyre had Rhaena, but non coming forth to the lad. We get told Aenys's himself was given Quicksilver. But that is quite ambiguous. We know from TRP and TP&TQ that Dragons readily reject riders they don't like the feel of. I doubt early Targaryens had some superior power to bend the Dragons will. I propose this phrasing by Glydayn that Aenys's was given Quicksiler is just a turn of phrase when in fact Aegon likely took Aenys's to see the hatchlings hoping one might venture forth and bond with the boy. Luckily for him, one did. Obviously we do know that Meleys went on to be Rhaenys's mount. there are 26 years howether between Jaehaerys reign begining and Rhaeys's birth, meaning it likely Meleys had riders prior to her; this ought to be obvious given we are told she is an old dragon during the Dance. And there are candidates. Aerae or Rhaella being two possible candidates. 

We know the Targaryen children were literally given either dragon hatchlings or dragon eggs. There is nothing mysterious about that, and there is no talk that a Targaryen who was given a dragon or an egg was ever hatched by the dragon (who hatched from that egg). And especially Aenys wasn't the kind of guy you accept to approach a wild/unknown animal. If his parents hadn't given him a dragon while he was 1-3, or something like that, he would never have become a dragonrider. Especially not after his mother was killed riding a dragon.

There is also no doubt that a Targaryen prince who has not yet mounted the dragon who hatched from his or her egg will eventually do so. It is matter of fact that Jaehaerys and Jaehaera will eventually claim their dragons, just as as it is matter of fact that Aegon the Younger would one day mount his Stormcloud - which he then did, on that ship.

It is different with adult dragons, of course, and even more different with wild dragons. But those hatchling dragons essentially are treated and seen as pets.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Leaving a 6th and final candidate to be found and I'd propose Caraxes, who again is a huge dragon, half the size of Vhagar, but that makes sense given these hatchlings are born when Vhaghar herself is already a huge formidable dragon. if he was born at the time of Aegon I's reign then he'd be about a hundred-ish during the dance which makes sense for a huge Dragon who is non the less nowhere near as huge as a Vhagar who would be about 80 or so years his senior being hatched as she was in 52BC.

We don't have to make attempts to attach names to all those dragons. It is quite unlikely that they fit. Meleys could indeed have hatched in 37 AC, or during the reign of Maegor. She is pretty old. But Caraxes might have come from an egg given to Daemon. Or he may have been a hatchling/egg given to one of Jaehaerys' children who died young.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I propose that GreyGhost was so elusive & Cannibal so dangerous that when the two twins came to claim a mount Meleys & Caraxes were the more available options. I hope that the girls did each take one of the beasts. But I guess that is a story for another day (ie: Fire & Blood) maybe Rhaena retrieved Rhaella from her fate as a Septa, I do hope so and in that case, I'd like to see the twins claim these dragons as it gives each a rider prior to those we know they had. Surely Daemon & Rhaenys' would not be their first riders?

The dragons some people should claim rather quickly now would be the riderless Balerion and Vhagar. Considering Alyssa Velaryon's Targaryen blood I find it very odd that she didn't claim Vhagar after Visenya's death. That could have made them a real danger to Maegor.

If Alyssa didn't do that, then Aerea and Rhaella are the best candidates to eventually claim Balerion and Vhagar. Jaehaerys' own children are all about a decade younger than the twin girls.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think surely the longer a Dragon goes riderless the harder they'd prove to claim? As seen in TP&TQ.

I think there is clear difference between riderless and wild dragon. Vermithor, Silverwing, and Seasmoke were easy to claim by people with the right amount of Targaryen blood. Sheepstealer not so much. Because he was not accustomed to the presence of humans.

33 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 Bringing me to Vermithor he could be one of the two who hatched during the two years of joint rule by the brothers? With Silverwing the other perhaps. I think there is a nice symmetry with the two dragons who were taken as representative of peace going on to be the mounts of the two Targaryens who did indeed bring years of peace and plenty to the realm. 

I suggested that above. The problem with that seems to be the age of Vermithor. Also already discussed above. Vermithor is supposed to be the oldest and largest dragon after Balerion and Vhagar. Which would mean older than both Dreamfyre and the Cannibal.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

But with six different High Septons holding the office in between 11 AC and 37 AC, it seems highly likely and logical that the man who was High Septon in 24 AC (when the possible betrothal between Maegor and Rhaena was protested) was no longer in office in 43 AC (when the High Septon was kin by marriage to House Hightower).

You actually think that? I never thought that at all. There is a good chance that those five other High Septons were all old and sick men who served only a couple of years - or some even months, like so many popes - between the years 11-23 AC.

The forceful High Septon died in 43 AC at the age of 53. That doesn't make it impossible that he received the Crystal Crown around the age of thirty in 23 AC, say. A younger brother to the Lady of Oldtown should always have a good shot at the highest office in the Faith.

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

Re: Daemon Velaryon turning against Maegor, it looks like the call was made to name him so, but in retrospect I suspect this was in fact supposed to be Aethan. That said, it feels like another thing to flag for George, as it's possible he indicated to Anne that Aethan was dead by this point and his successor was the one who turned.

That would be good to know. We have it in the TSotD text that Alyssa searched refuge in her 'lord father's castle' indicating that Aethan was still alive in 42 AC, shortly after Aenys' death. But later on, when Alyssa and the children attend Maegor's third wedding the same year, only Alyssa's brothers and cousins of House Velaryon show up. Lord Aethan Velaryon is not mentioned, although one assumes that he would have been there if he was still alive and well enough to travel.

He seems to have been a Velaryon Maegor have gotten along rather well. The warred together on the Stepstones against the Saan fellow. But still, it is odd that Maegor would have spared Aethan's life after Alyssa and the children escaped. Or the life of her brother Daemon.

Fire and Blood could clarify that. Maegor really needs a good reason not to kill people.

56 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen It is an interesting idea that the High Septon in 23 AC was a different one than the one during the Faith Militant Rebellion. I never thought about that, because both times he is mentioned as Ceryse's uncle, but I guess this would work. The only way to learn the truth is probably waiting for Fire and Blood.

See above. I really don't think that would make a lot of sense. It was why I originally asked whether it makes sense that the High Septon was only 53 when he died. But it makes sense. A thirty-year-old certainly could be chosen. It would be somewhat early, but the man was really a forceful, ambitious, and charismatic guy.

Nobody liking the idea that he may have been a Gardener from an obscure cadet branch, given to the Faith before the Conquest?

Or at least a boy who lost a lot of family members on the Field of Fire...?

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