Angel Eyes

Regarding Lord Rickard Stark’s Southron Ambitions,

28 posts in this topic

Marry him to a Northerner most likely, Brandon's marrying the daughter of a liege lord and Lyanna's marrying another liege lord. Ned and Benjen will most likely be married to a bannerman's daughter to strengthen House Stark. A lot of Robb's problems would have been solved if Benjen had married instead of joining the NW imo. 

On the other hand I can see Ned staying with Lyanna in Storm's End like Brynden did with Lysa, perhaps Rickard intended him to marry someone there? 

Edited by Pikachu101

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Before answering the question, I think that Rickard wasn't making these alliances out of southron ambition as Barbrey Dustin put it, but he was instead doing it to defend the north when the time came. I know, there's nothing in the text that supports that. 

Since I tend to think that Rickard understood that there was a great threat coming from beyond the Wall, I also think that Benjen was always going to end up with the Night's Watch. 

As far as Ned goes, maybe he would have married him off to one of his bannermen's daughters. The other option is that he was looking for another southern alliance. And I've kinda thought that this alliance might have been with the Reach. Rickard and Olenna knew each other. Olenna says that they didn't know each other well, but still, the fact remains that those two had some interactions. Olenna has two daughters. I think one is married to Paxter Redwyne and the other to a Fossoway. I could easily seem them talking marriage. If a long, destructive winter is coming, then the North would starve. And one thing the Reach has is food.

But this is all going from the idea that Rickard believed that the long night was coming.

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Well, it does look like Rickard is somehow quite ambitious in the South than regular Starks. 

Lyanna and Brandon’s marriages bonded Stark with Tully and Baratheon. Ned made Stark bond to his foster father Arryn and brother Baratheon too. These four houses STAB are exactly the four houses who fought in the rebellion. Honestly, if Aerys becomes totally insane and behaves like Maegor and Rhaegar does not bother or fails to remove him, then this rebellion will still happen even Rhaegar does not do anything with Lyanna. And Robert will still kill Rhaegar and becomes new king. 

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I believe Ned was going to marry the daughter of a vassal, as Brandon and Lyanna were already meant to marry outside the North. Or maybe Ned could have chosen his own bride, maybe he could have gone for Ashara Dayne?

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Judging by Egg getting to marry whoever he wants (and he was a prince), the younger sons seem to have more freedom in this regard. Probs could have had a shot at Ashara as put forth by others. Perhaps he could have wed Barbrey Ryswell?

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3 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

Judging by Egg getting to marry whoever he wants (and he was a prince), the younger sons seem to have more freedom in this regard. Probs could have had a shot at Ashara as put forth by others. Perhaps he could have wed Barbrey Ryswell?

Barbrey was expecting that to happen, since she claims Catelyn stole Brandon from her and then Ned. Although I am quite sure Ned would do as he was told to, he is a follower, not a leader, at least he was like that before he became Lord of Winterfell.

 

If he was given free will to choose, I bet he would go after Ashara Dayne, although I don't know if the Daynes would accept. I tend to think they would, the Starks are a Paramount House, that marriage wouldn't be beneath the Daynes. Ashara maybe loved Ned, I hope we have a revelation in the next two books.

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59 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Barbrey was expecting that to happen, since she claims Catelyn stole Brandon from her and then Ned. Although I am quite sure Ned would do as he was told to, he is a follower, not a leader, at least he was like that before he became Lord of Winterfell.

I had the impression Barbery was angry because Cat stole her chances of becoming lady of Winterfell. Even if Brandon and Cat happened, Barbery would still be angry on Cat because Cat gets to be lady of Winterfell (and has Brandon as a bonus). Probably Barbery's father would try and get her married off to Ned. But would that be happy for her? Probably not, because she wouldn't be lady of Winterfell and she would have to watch Brandon being husband to Cat. The only scenario in where she would want to wed Ned is when Brandon was dead and Ned was an unmarried Lord of Winterfell himself. But to bad on her that Cat got Ned as a back up.

59 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

If he was given free will to choose, I bet he would go after Ashara Dayne, although I don't know if the Daynes would accept. I tend to think they would, the Starks are a Paramount House, that marriage wouldn't be beneath the Daynes. Ashara maybe loved Ned, I hope we have a revelation in the next two books.

Yes I hope so to - atleast then we can find out if it was Brandon + Ashara or Ned + Ashara. I'm leaning a bit more on Brandon being the one...since Ned never makes mention of Ashara or her stillborn girl in his POV's. Which he should have done if he had a real relationship with her and he fathered her stillborn daughter. But you know, he doesn't at all - and that's what gets to me.

Edited by WeKnowNothing

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2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

 A lot of Robb's problems would have been solved if Benjen had married instead of joining the NW imo.

I don't see why. Most of the Northern houses pledged themselves to Robb anyway, and gave him all the help they could. And perhaps, sending a Stark to the Night's Watch is something that makes them gain prestige in the North and earn the loyalty of all of their vassals in a more widespread manner than a marriage would (since it would only reward a single family).

Perhaps a case could be made for Barbrey Dustin, but I think Benjen was too young for her, and I'm not sure that a couple thousand soldiers more would have changed Robb's fortune significantly.

 

15 minutes ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

If he was given free will to choose, I bet he would go after Ashara Dayne, although I don't know if the Daynes would accept. I tend to think they would, the Starks are a Paramount House, that marriage wouldn't be beneath the Daynes.

My personal theory is that Rickard was trying to set a network of alliances between the great houses to overthrow the Targaryens, or at least curtail their powers to the point that they became puppet kings with only nominal rule.

He would have been in league with Jon Arryn, and had already brokered marriages with the lords of the Stormlands and the Riverlands.Tywin may had been considering to join the conspiracy when he toyed with the idea of marrying Jaime and Lysa. I think it's remarkable that there were all those matches among the main lines of great families when they were apparently non-existent in the previous centuries***

For this reason, I wouldn't discard that the relationship between Ned and Ashara was instigated by his father, trying to gain an ally in Dorne to counter the power of House Martell (that were obviously on the Targaryen camp)

 

***AWOIAF gave us the family trees of the Starks and the Lannisters, and practically all of the matches are with vassals of their region [with the only exceptions being Gerold Lannister's second marriage with Rohanne Webber and Cregan Stark's marraige with Alysanne Blackwood]. And at least in the previous generation, the rest of the families followed the pattern: Steffon Baratheron married an Estermont, Hoster Tully a Whent, Jon Arryn a Royce and an Arryn, Luthor Tyrell a Redwyne, Mace Tyrell a Hightower, Balon Greyjoy a Harlaw,..

 

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1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't see why. Most of the Northern houses pledged themselves to Robb anyway, and gave him all the help they could.

There's strength in numbers especially when it comes to family, if Benjen had children the North would have had someone to fight for after Robb died. The Lannisters and Tyrells have hoards of cousins whose allegiance is solely to the family, bannermen aren't that trustworthy.  

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9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

What were his plans for Ned outside of fostering him in the Vale?

Good question, although we may never know the answer... politically, wouldn't Cersei have made a great match? Though Tywin might not have thought so.

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Before answering the question, I think that Rickard wasn't making these alliances out of southron ambition as Barbrey Dustin put it, but he was instead doing it to defend the north when the time came. I know, there's nothing in the text that supports that.

Hmmm, more than that, there is evidence to support Barbrey Dustin's allegations of Southern Ambitions, besides the planned marriages of two of his children to other High Lord's families...

Quote

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

Lord Hoster Tully had ambitions too, although for a long time he had no son... and Catelyn Tully was raised as heir. Even after Edmure is born, she is heir to Riverrun and the River Lands.

Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully were a power couple and a half, ruling what Rob later claims as his Kingdom. Add to this Lyanna was intended for Robert, and Jon Arryn was probably in on the deal and all of a sudden we are talking about a majority of the Seven Kingdoms.

Hoster Tully was married to Minisa Whent... whose one brother hosted The Tourney of Harrenhall, and whose other brother was at the Tower of Joy.

My question is why weren't Hoster Tully and his children at the Tourney of Harrenhall? 

The Whents were his bannermen, and he had been married to a Whent... and the tourney was in honor of his niece, Catelyn's first cousin.

If Rhaegar was really behind organizing the tourney, why wouldn't he invite Holster, or why wouldn't Holster come?

 

 

 

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@LiveFirstDieLater, with regard to the quote about Brandon, I disagree with you that it has to do with southron ambitions. I think it's just Ned reflecting on Brandon having been groomed to be the Lord of Winterfell and everything that came with it. If Brandon had lived, his daughter with Catelyn may have been the one to be betrothed to the crown prince, he might have been chosen as Hand of the King. 

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Hoster Tully was married to Minisa Whent... whose one brother hosted The Tourney of Harrenhall, and whose other brother was at the Tower of Joy.

We don't know this. We only know that Minisa was a Whent, we don't know if she was sister to Walter and Oswell. The other thing is we don't know which side House Whent fought during Robert's Rebellion. 

39 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Lord Hoster Tully had ambitions too, although for a long time he had no son... and Catelyn Tully was raised as heir. Even after Edmure is born, she is heir to Riverrun and the River Lands.

She was the heir until Edmure was born. She says in ACOK that she was the daughter and the son until Edmure was born and when her mother died, her father told her she must be the lady of Riverrun, so she was the one running the household, but that doesn't make her the heir to Riverrun or the riverlands.

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6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

My question is why weren't Hoster Tully and his children at the Tourney of Harrenhall? 

The Whents were his bannermen, and he had been married to a Whent... and the tourney was in honor of his niece, Catelyn's first cousin.

If Rhaegar was really behind organizing the tourney, why wouldn't he invite Holster, or why wouldn't Holster come?

 

 

 

Not only Hoster Tully and his household were absent from tourney, but also Lord Rickard Stark. 

It is also kind of strange why all four Stark siblings attended tourney, we know northern people are not big fans of this type of event. 

My explanation is that Hoster Tully and Rickard Stark are both busy in preparing the wedding of Brandon and Catelyn. All four Stark children came to Riverlands because they would need to attend Brandon's wedding shortly after this anyway. Catelyn is the bride and she also served as Lady of Riverrun, so obviously she did not have time to attend the tourney even it was sponsored by her mother's kin.

By the way, we do not know if Minisa is the sister of lord Whent. I too believe so but there is no proof from the book saying so. We do not know if Lady Shella Whent is the "fair Whent maid" (queen of love and beauty before Lyanna) in the tourney either. But I also believe so. 

 

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25 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Not only Hoster Tully and his household were absent from tourney, but also Lord Rickard Stark. 

It is also kind of strange why all four Stark siblings attended tourney, we know northern people are not big fans of this type of event. 

My explanation is that Hoster Tully and Rickard Stark are both busy in preparing the wedding of Brandon and Catelyn. All four Stark children came to Riverlands because they would need to attend Brandon's wedding shortly after this anyway. Catelyn is the bride and she also served as Lady of Riverrun, so obviously she did not have time to attend the tourney even it was sponsored by her mother's kin.

By the way, we do not know if Minisa is the sister of lord Whent. I too believe so but there is no proof from the book saying so. We do not know if Lady Shella Whent is the "fair Whent maid" (queen of love and beauty before Lyanna) in the tourney either. But I also believe so. 

 

One theory is that Hoster stayed away as a protest because he was pissed off at Aerys for inducting Jaime Lannister into the Kingsguard (which formally happened at the tourney).  This ruined the arrangement Hoster and Tywin were making for Lysa and Jaime's marriage.

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7 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

and Jon Arryn was probably in on the deal

Hoster and Rickard I can see, but not so much with Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn had already given up on having children which is why he never remarried until both his nephew Elbert, who was his heir, and Denys died. Only then does he agree to marry Lysa Tully, so he can secure an heir for the main branch of House Arryn.

We know of no prestigious betrothals for Elbert Arryn or Denys. So one has to ask, what was in it for Jon Arryn or the Vale? I honestly believe Jon Arryn was happy to live out the twilight of his life, after naming Elbert his heir, in peaceful contentment . Then he agreed to foster a future Lord of Storm's End and a second son from the North, which, in it self, is not an uncommon thing for a Warden of the East and Lord of the Vale to do. 

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3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

We know of no prestigious betrothals for Elbert Arryn or Denys.

Denys Arryn was married to one of Jon's nieces, the daughter of his sister, she and her son died shortly after Denys himself.

 

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Not only Hoster Tully and his household were absent from tourney, but also Lord Rickard Stark.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, this is mentioned a number of times during the books.

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8 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

By the way, we do not know if Minisa is the sister of lord Whent. I too believe so but there is no proof from the book saying so. We do not know if Lady Shella Whent is the "fair Whent maid" (queen of love and beauty before Lyanna) in the tourney either. But I also believe so. 

It's Shella Whent's daughter who was the maiden. Shella inherited Harrenhal from her father and married Walter who was her cousin, they had the 4 boys and the daughter. LF says that Shella died in AFFC (which made me mad because I was expecting her to come into the story at some point), the daughter could be the one who is married to Danwel Frey. 

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5 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's Shella Whent's daughter who was the maiden. Shella inherited Harrenhal from her father and married Walter who was her cousin, they had the 4 boys and the daughter. LF says that Shella died in AFFC (which made me mad because I was expecting her to come into the story at some point), the daughter could be the one who is married to Danwel Frey. 

No she is confirmed to be dead.

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2 hours ago, direpupy said:

No she is confirmed to be dead.

I don't remember that, but oh well!  

ETA - yeah, it says she was the last of her line, which is a line that I've read a million times.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't remember that, but oh well!  

ETA - yeah, it says she was the last of her line, which is a line that I've read a million times.

Lady Shella is dead. And since she is the last one, so this means all her 4 sons and her daughter died before her too? Pretty tragic. 

 

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