If Jon Snow becomes king, who is TPtwP?

[lAPPYc]

Just like the wording of the vows free him from the Night's Watch upon his death, the wording of this prophecy that deals in princes frees him from the duty if he becomes a king. TPtwP was supposed to come from Aerys's and Rhaella's line, and Dany is already a queen. So assuming Aegon is fAegon, why do so many people want Jon to lose the privilege of being the hero of the series?

[Faera]

Could you clarify what you mean by "the wording of this prophecy"? I can't really remember much about the clauses.

Speaking for myself, I don't think Jon is going to be king but I don't see why becoming King excludes him from being TPtwP anymore than Daenerys being a queen would. Melisandre certainly doesn't seem to think becoming monarch precludes one from becoming TPtwP as she firmly believes Stannis is the one and he is currently the strongest claimant to the Iron Throne depending on who you ask.

[Dorian Martell's son]

21 minutes ago, lAPPYc said:

Just like the wording of the vows free him from the Night's Watch upon his death, the wording of this prophecy that deals in princes frees him from the duty if he becomes a king. TPtwP was supposed to come from Aerys's and Rhaella's line, and Dany is already a queen. So assuming Aegon is fAegon, why do so many people want Jon to lose the privilege of being the hero of the series?

Jon is the prince that was promised because he is the child of Rhaegar, who is the direct line of Aerys and Rhaella. being lord commander of the watch or the king in the north does not change that 

[LynnS]

I don't understand what the prophesy says at all:

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

- what was the prince promised?

- to whom was he promised?

- the prince promised to do what?

[lAPPYc]

18 minutes ago, Faera said:

Could you clarify what you mean by "the wording of this prophecy"?

The Prince that was promised.

18 minutes ago, Faera said:

Melisandre certainly doesn't seem to think becoming monarch precludes one from becoming TPtwP as she firmly believes Stannis is the one

Mel's crazy. She saw a tower by the sea being attacked and even when she knew that it didn't look anything like Eastwatch, she told Jon that it was Eastwatch. She uses the terms Azor Ahai and The Prince that was Promised, but uses Azor Ahar more frequently(According to wiki), probably because she has been using Azor Ahai longer, that is to say, she read some prophecy about Azor Ahai reborn, and then when she came west, heard about this Prince that was also promised, and assumed both to be the same. Of course, she could be right, but then that would mean Jon couldn't be Azor Ahai either if he became a king. Another possibility includes that TPwtP is tin foil, but the Ghost of High Heart corroborated this prophecy, and the Targs probably knew it before she came too, so that's two different sources citing this prophecy.

18 minutes ago, Faera said:

I don't see why becoming King excludes him from being TPtwP anymore than Daenerys being a queen would.

Consider these lines:

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A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.... mother of dragons, daughter of death... Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

 

She knows the titles of these people even if she has never seen them. She doesn't even hear name Rhaegar whispers, but she knows it is a woman's name. There are more:

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I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning

Knows it's a king

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I dreamt of a maid at a feast, with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs. And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.

 

knows it's a maid

And probably more. Titles are important.

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, lAPPYc said:

Just like the wording of the vows free him from the Night's Watch upon his death, the wording of this prophecy that deals in princes frees him from the duty if he becomes a king. TPtwP was supposed to come from Aerys's and Rhaella's line, and Dany is already a queen. So assuming Aegon is fAegon, why do so many people want Jon to lose the privilege of being the hero of the series?

You think there is only one hero in the series?  I believe many people will rise to the occasion, even the likes of Theon, Stannis, and Brienne.  Each will have a part to play, some great and some small, but all of importance.

Why is the prophecy worded this way, "the prince that was promised" instead of "the king that was promised?"   Could be it's not the destiny of the promised person to rule.  

[lAPPYc]

4 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Why is the prophecy worded this way, "the prince that was promised" instead of "the king that was promised?"   Could be it's not the destiny of the promised person to rule.

Ummm, yeah. This was actually my point. Jon doesn't have the crown in his destiny.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

Aegon is legit... Dany is AZOR AHAI, TPTWP (She's the Amethyst Empress reborn). She will kill Aegon or be involved in his death some how. Jon is the Sword of the morning

[Faera]

2 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

The Prince that was promised

Many kings and queens start out as princes and princesses, so I don't think that necessarily changes anything in regards to whether Jon, Daenerys, (f)/(r)Aegon or any other technical prince or princess cannot become ruler after fulfilling whatever is required of TPtwP. Even if Daenerys is the "Queen of Meereen" she is still a Targaryen prince(ss) because she has never officially assumed the throne of the Seven Kingdoms.

I have my doubts that GRRM will ever stick his flag in the ground and declare a single character as TPtwP or even allow us to come to a conclusion that only one interpretation is correct. Even though the Ghost of Heart Heart's declaration that TPtwP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella is pretty damning evidence that narrows the search down to about three characters without knowing the actual dream itself, we have no clear way of knowing if her interpretation of her dream was correct. Her dreams, while accurate with the benefit of hindsight, are as subjective as Jojen Reed's are and we have seen that the dreams don't always tell them what he initially thinks either.

When I hear "The Prince that was Promised", I ask the same questions @LynnS does:

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I don't understand what the prophesy says at all:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

- what was the prince promised?

- to whom was he promised?

- the prince promised to do what?

It is the "promised" aspect more than the royal aspect that has always puzzled me. The wording of the phrase itself is open to all of these multiple interpretations that can spin-off even further speculations based on your favoured reading of "promised". In other words, it reinforces the subjectivity of prophecy.

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

- what was the prince [...] promised?

While I recognize the ambiguity, I tend towards the interpretation of a person (i.e. the so-called 'prince') who is promised in payment by one party to another.

e.g. The Ghost of High Heart demands a song from Tom Sevenstrings in exchange for her prophecy, as agreed in the quid-pro-quo deal, referring to this as the 'song that was promised'; hence, the meaning of something owed in exchange for magical information proferred (think of Rumpelstilskin, as @Unchained has noted).  

According to @Wizz-The-Smith's 'SCION=COINS' wordplay, a person, specifically a male heir, is frequently used to effect some payment or another.  e.g. Theon as Ned's ward to seal the peace pact and ensure Balon's compliance, or Robb who was supposed to marry Walder Frey's daughter as a 'bridge toll'!  The latter highlights that a special component of being 'promised to someone' often entails marriage:

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A Storm of Swords - Catelyn II

"How will you get the northmen to the north?" her brother Edmure asked. "The ironmen control the sunset sea. The Greyjoys hold Moat Cailin as well. No army has ever taken Moat Cailin from the south. Even to march against it is madness. We could be trapped on the causeway, with the ironborn before us and angry Freys at our backs."

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . ."

"Not something," said Catelyn. "Someone."

 

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime V

"Small wonder you took the white. I'd have done the same."

"Oh, Lysa was not so fearsome as all that." She had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles, with none of Cersei's fire. Her older sister had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was promised to some northern boy, the heir of Winterfell . . .

As I discussed with you on the other thread, I see Bran as the scion/coin paid in exchange for Monster's border crossing at the 'toll gate' -- constituting a reprieve from Monster's appointed fate as sacrifice to the Others.  Effectively, Bran takes his place 'under the sea/see'.  As to marriage -- Bran was promised in marriage to the trees!

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

- to whom was he promised?

By a human to the Children/the Others, in exchange for peace/withdrawal of Winter's forces during the Long Night.  

I think Bran the Builder promised to pay for the magical help he received with a male relative of his line (but I suspect he and/or his descendants rescinded on the deal...).

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- the prince promised to do what?

To settle a debt, as agreed upon in a pact. 

Except -- the human forfeited the payment; and now the 'debt collectors' (the Others) are coming to claim their due!

The prince has to die for Spring to be reborn -- that's why his wolf's name is Summer ('Prince of the Green...Prince of a Lost Kingdom...Prince of Winterfell...Prince Bran...').

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

A prince may one day become a king, not a problem. I don't interpret "The prince that was promised" as "he'll never become king, it's a prince and not a half a step higher". I don't think anybody in-universe did, and they - at least people like Rhaegar or Aemon - lived and breathed royal titles.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

While I recognize the ambiguity, I tend towards the interpretation of a person (i.e. the so-called 'prince') who is promised in payment by one party to another.

e.g. The Ghost of High Heart demands a song from Tom Sevenstrings in exchange for her prophecy, as agreed in the quid-pro-quo deal, referring to this as the 'song that was promised'; hence, the meaning of something owed in exchange for magical information proferred (think of Rumpelstilskin, as @Unchained has noted).  

According to @Wizz-The-Smith's 'SCION=COINS' wordplay, a person, specifically a male heir, is frequently used to effect some payment or another.  e.g. Theon as Ned's ward to seal the peace pact and ensure Balon's compliance, or Robb who was supposed to marry Walder Frey's daughter as a 'bridge toll'!  The latter highlights that a special component of being 'promised to someone' often entails marriage:

 

As I discussed with you on the other thread, I see Bran as the scion/coin paid in exchange for Monster's border crossing at the 'toll gate' -- constituting a reprieve from Monster's appointed fate as sacrifice to the Others.  Effectively, Bran takes his place 'under the sea/see'.  As to marriage -- Bran was promised in marriage to the trees!

By a human to the Children/the Others, in exchange for peace/withdrawal of Winter's forces during the Long Night.  

I think Bran the Builder promised to pay for the magical help he received with a male relative of his line (but I suspect he and/or his descendants rescinded on the deal...).

To settle a debt, as agreed upon in a pact. 

Except -- the human forfeited the payment; and now the 'debt collectors' (the Others) are coming to claim their due!

The prince has to die for Spring to be reborn -- that's why his wolf's name is Summer ('Prince of the Green...Prince of a Lost Kingdom...Prince of Winterfell...Prince Bran...').

Ah!  Very interesting.  Yes I can see that Bran is exchanged in payment for Monster.  Is there something equivalent that relates to Dany if she is in the fact the PwiP as Aemon concludes - the dragons prove it?   

[Universal Sword Donor]

It's either Jon or Dany, since the prince is gender neutral and they are the only ones who are alive to fulfill the prohecy

[ravenous reader]

38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ah!  Very interesting.  Yes I can see that Bran is exchanged in payment for Monster.  Is there something equivalent that relates to Dany if she is in the fact the PwiP as Aemon concludes - the dragons prove it?   

Hi Lynn   The promise or payment seems to involve a child, perhaps even one child for another.  Think of Cat's strange, almost-misplaced line to Jon 'it should've been you...'  -- Bran took the fall and stayed at Winterfell in Jon's stead, liberating Jon from Winterfell.  Remember on Heresy, we discussed the movement involved using the analogy of a chess move (of which GRRM as former almost-grand-chessmaster would certainly be aware), namely 'castling', in which the rook (Bran) saves the king (Jon) by exchanging positions with him!  As far as 'the dragons prove it,' I believe Bran will skinchange an ice dragon.

For Dany to qualify, she would have to sacrifice a child (perhaps a dragon?) for another (perhaps a human life?).  Alternatively, she'd have to be prepared to sacrifice herself (so far, others have died in her stead -- namely, Viserys, Rhaego and Drogo -- the death order corresponding to the birth order of the three dragon namesakes Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon, respectively).

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't think the PtwP can't be king or that a king can't be the PtwP. 

We still don't know what the whole prophecy of the PtwP entails. It seems to focus on waking the dragons, the salt, the smoke and the bleeding star, maybe because those criteria are more difficult to attain, but it's got to be more extensive than this. 

In Dance, Jon was starting to have dreams that are similar to the ones Dany was having in Game. So it does seem to me that there's another side of him that's beginning to emerge. 

Besides this, I still don't understand what the PtwP or Azor Ahai are. At least with the stallion who mounts the world, we are told that this person will unify all the khalasars. The crones aren't hiding anything. But all we have about the PtwP/AA are a half-baked prophecy and a half-baked legend about the forging of Lightbringer.

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It's either Jon or Dany, since the prince is gender neutral and they are the only ones who are alive to fulfill the prohecy

Maybe it's both of them.

 

[lAPPYc]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

A prince may one day become a king, not a problem. I don't interpret "The prince that was promised" as "he'll never become king, it's a prince and not a half a step higher"

Well, I am only asking you to interpret that 'it shall not end until my death' as till my last days and not free Jon of the vows. You can't take one literally and not the other.

[ravenous reader]

PRince, not King, that was PRomised is a PRice to be paid -- maybe GRRM enjoys the alliteration!

The 'Prince' is technically the heir-in-waiting, rather than someone who rules.  If Jon and/or Dany officially becomes a King and/or Queen respectively, then it's highly unlikely either can be the stipulated 'prince/ss'.

[bent branch]

First off, the "Prince that was promised" is actually the "Dragon that was promised". Look again at what Aemon says in AFFC-Chapter 35:

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...What fools we were who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years..."

What we can glean from this passage are these three things:

1)  The prophecy is about a thousand years old.

2)  The prophecy has been translated from a different language.

3)  The word in the original prophecy in its original language is "dragon". How we know it is dragon is that it was mistranslated with a gender specific word, prince, while dragons are not of a fixed sex. Therefore, we know the original word was dragon.

The next thing to ask ourselves is what did calling someone a "dragon" mean a thousand years ago. I have spilled lots of electronic ink on this topic (it is the topic I came originally to the forum to discuss); however, I will shortcut my conclusions here. A thousand years ago calling someone a dragon meant they were one of the dragon lords. Therefore, the prophecy refers to someone who descended from this group of people. This individual need not be "royalty" at all.

"The dragon has three heads" strongly suggests that there are three people who comprise the "dragon that was promised". The first two heads of the dragon are Dany and Jon. Depending on if the third head needs to also fulfill the woodswitch's prophecy of TPTWP of the dragon descending from Aerys and Rhaella, then the third head must be Aegon, who then must be the son of Rhaegar and Elia. If the third head of the dragon doesn't not need to descend from Aerys and Rhaella, then Tyrion must be the bastard son of Aerys and Joanna. No matter which way the story goes, some people are going to be pissed off.

Anyway, I don't think the prophecy is saying anything at all about who ends up on the throne. It is far more likely that DTWP prophecy is about those who will save the world from the existential threat from the north than who occupies the Iron Throne.

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, bent branch said:

First off, the "Prince that was promised" is actually the "Dragon that was promised". Look again at what Aemon says in AFFC-Chapter 35:

What we can glean from this passage are these three things:

1)  The prophecy is about a thousand years old.

2)  The prophecy has been translated from a different language.

3)  The word in the original prophecy in its original language is "dragon". How we know it is dragon is that it was mistranslated with a gender specific word, prince, while dragons are not of a fixed sex. Therefore, we know the original word was dragon.

 

Oh, the dragon that was promised!  That's great.  But I think this has more to do with 'waking the dragon' or transforming into a dragon. Not just any dragon, but a great dragon or dragon god.  

 

 

[bent branch]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Oh, the dragon that was promised!  That's great.  But I think this has more to do with 'waking the dragon' or transforming into a dragon. Not just any dragon, but a great dragon or dragon god. 

I think the dragons and their riders were a magical weapon prepared against the day the Others arose again. I seriously doubt anyone is going to actually turn into a dragon or a god.