What’s under His many faces?

[Lady Dacey]

50 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

The story about how noble their work is, is a story as a means to an end.

I don't know... as you said, all organized religions need money. The septs of Faith of the Seven and the temples of R'hollor are depicted as much more opulent than the House of Black and White. There are many ways to get money, why become professional assasins? I don't think killing is just a way they came up to sustain themselves, for death is a fundamental part of their beliefs, it's what they work for. 

56 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

No one can deny that their God exists

The Red God? Why not? Believing the Red God is as much a matter of faith as believing any other god. How do you prove a god's existence? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Is there? I haven't seen it. I mean they have power, but how do we know it comes from R'hllor? 

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whatever thing that is "R'hlor is  referred as such is real. Rather that be a demon, a God, or whatever is between who can say. Perhaps the "God" Melisandre is worshiping is the great other. No one can definitely say what it is only that it is real. 

[The Sunland Lord]

54 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I don't know... as you said, all organized religions need money. The septs of Faith of the Seven and the temples of R'hollor are depicted as much more opulent than the House of Black and White. There are many ways to get money, why become professional assasins? I don't think killing is just a way they came up to sustain themselves, for death is a fundamental part of their beliefs, it's what they work for. 

Why-I can't tell. In stories there's often assassins included. So why not here too? The author needed their existence. However it is interesting to dig.

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The Red God? Why not? Believing the Red God is as much a matter of faith as believing any other god. How do you prove a god's existence? 

I was thinking of the God of death. No one can deny that they do mean what they preach. Maybe I misunderstood the post from @Varysblackfyre321. 

[Lady Dacey]

25 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Whatever thing that is "R'hlor is  referred as such is real. Rather that be a demon, a God, or whatever is between who can say. Perhaps the "God" Melisandre is worshiping is the great other. No one can definitely say what it is only that it is real. 

Magic is real in the World of Ice and Fire, I'll give you that. Some people believe in it, others remain skeptical (let's see for how long...) but the fact that is exists is, well, a fact. World of God (Martin, I mean) has said so, and we've seen many instances in the books that can only be explained by the supernatural. 

Magic is real and the red priests are (among other characters) able to manipulate it. Undisputable. The red priests and priestesses of R'hllor are powerful.

But we can't take the leap that because they are able to manipulate magic what they preach is real. That is a leap of faith, and it always will be. In my truly humble opinion, that is one of the beauties of the world Martin has created. 

If we take a parallel to the real world... my cousin's aunt had leukemia fifteen years ago. She never found a marrow donor, but somehow she healed completely. The doctors that took care of her couldn't explain how she was cured. It is a mystery to this day. A religious person would take it as a miracle and proof of god's existence. She is an atheist though, and she never prayed for a cure. Still the scientists that studied her case never came up with a reasonable explanation of what happened and how her body reacted. They are convinced that there is a mundane biological explanation, we just don't have the technological means to access that knowledge yet. 

In a world where magic exists, the origins of magic are going to be forever disputed, and each group of people will have their own explanation. Is it possible to come to know The Truth? Unless one of the deities reveals itself as a supernatural entity with direct interaction with the world, I don't think so. And I'm convinced that Martin isn't going on that direction anyway. 

[Lady Dacey]

11 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I was thinking of the God of death

Sorry I misunderstood you. Indeed, specially because they equate the god of death with death itself, and it's impossible to say ideath isn't real...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Great topic!

I wanna throw two things out there... see where they go.

First, the origin story:

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"No one," he answered. "Some say he was a slave himself. Others insist he was a freeholder's son, born of noble stock. Some will even tell you he was an overseer who took pity on his charges. The truth is, no one knows. Whoever he was, he moved amongst the slaves and would hear them at their prayers. Men of a hundred different nations labored in the mines, and each prayed to his own god in his own tongue, yet all were praying for the same thing. It was release they asked for, an end to pain. A small thing, and simple. Yet their gods made no answer, and their suffering went on. Are their gods all deaf? he wondered . . . until a realization came upon him, one night in the red darkness.

"All gods have their instruments, men and women who serve them and help to work their will on earth. The slaves were not crying out to a hundred different gods, as it seemed, but to one god with a hundred different faces . . . and he was that god's instrument. That very night he chose the most wretched of the slaves, the one who had prayed most earnestly for release, and freed him from his bondage. The firstgift had been given." 

Arya drew back from him. "He killed the slave?" That did not sound right. "He should have killed the masters!"

"He would bring the gift to them as well . . . but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one." He cocked his head. "And who are you, child?"

 

It’s pretty clear there is more to this story than meets the eye. But I would propose that the First No-One must have been well educated to understand the slaves speaking in so many different tongues, let alone be able to move along them at will. Languages are also one of the lessons Arya receives. 

Also, side note, I find the “red darkness” a fascinating turn of phrase, and part of my suspicion that the Faceless man are more a combination of fire and ice than simply a face of the great other, as some have speculated.

But it does seem that this is representative of the “all men must die” and that there are things worse than death, death can be a gift.

But that is only half the ethos... all men must also serve:

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"And are you a god, to decide who should live and who should die?" he asked her. "We give the gift to those marked by Him of Many Faces, after prayers and sacrifice. So has it always been, from the beginning. I have told you of the founding of our order, of how the first of us answered the prayers of slaves who wished for death. The gift was given only to those who yearned for it, in the beginning … but one day, the first of us heard a slave praying not for his own death but for his master's. So fervently did he desire this that he offered all he had, that his prayer might be answered. And it seemed to our first brother that this sacrifice would be pleasing to Him of Many Faces, so that night he granted the prayer. Then he went to the slave and said, 'You offered all you had for this man's death, but slaves have nothing but their lives. That is what the god desires of you. For the rest of your days on earth, you will serve him.' And from that moment, we were two." His hand closed around her arm, gently but firmly. "All men must die. We are but death's instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god's powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?"

I don’t understand... but I’m trying...

The impression I get is that the Faceless men really do get judgements from someone/something... namely him of many faces when he “marks” someone for death. 

There is another odd contradiction here, Braavos was founded by freed slaves, and if the Faceless Men were directly responsible or collaborators they do seem to oppose slavery. However, at the same time a core belief is that “all men must serve” and the first faceless man demands service from the second for the rest of his life. The difference presumably is it is service freely given?

The Faceless Men seem to see themselves as simply tools in the hands of their god. Just No Ones with a bit of pointed steel.

Which brings me to my second quote:

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"It has crossed my mind a time or two," Tyrion admitted. "The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

"And yet he is no one," Varys said. "He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel." 

"That piece of steel is the power of life and death."

Vary’s riddle appears to be a version of the Faceless Men’s ethos...

The answer is “all men must die”, and Varys goes on to explain the philosophy of how all men serve. Power is a shadow on the wall, and shadows can kill.

But the question remains, are the Faceless Men really getting direction from somewhere, or just making things up as they go along... sacrifice and prayer are one thing, actually hearing a gods voice is another.

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"The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead."

[Lady Dacey]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Lady Dacey, @PrettyPig and @Varysblackfyre321--what do we make of the Faceless Men as a religious group involving themselves in Balon's death?   This is the murder of a king, after all.   Was this for money or an urgent desire to get Euron in power?   Paid for by a dragon egg?  

My friend, you are not afraid of asking the difficult questions, are you? I have no idea for their motives, but I'm sure some of our more creative forum users are going to come up with a few theories for us. Was Balon marked? How? Euron doesn't seem distraught about loosing his dragon egg, but we are led to believe the Faceless Men ask for dire sacrifice in order to kill... what could Euron consider a sacrifice? That they were responsible for the death of one of the five kings in the the War of the Five Kings is one of the reasons that points to them being involved in the game of thrones of the Seven Kingdoms. Do they have an agenda?

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah Lady D, this is a truly exciting discussion.   I will be brief as the working day beckons...

@PrettyPig, I was also thinking of the criminal term, "angels of mercy" as I typed.   However, your expose' on Jim Jones was better argument than I could have hoped for.   You know me, I'm not opposed to disagreement so I won't take anything from your lovely reply.  Every word is true and moreover, important to this discussion.   

As I stated early on, I'm trying to figure out why Arya is with the Faceless Men.   Was this group always something GRRM had on his mind, or did he summon them up for Arya?   Assuming nothing, they are with Arya.   Mercy is the thing that screams loudest at me.   This child is so damaged and still utterly fearless--yet I have not thought her psychopathic in the least.   Just broken.   When Bran dreams of the 3 knights over Ned, Sansa and Arya he mentions that Arya holds her secrets hard in her heart.   I think that may be a critical clue to Arya's story.  

I beg all pardons here as I have a question for @The Fattest Leech--Are there other groups akin to the Faceless Men in any of Martin's other writing?   

@Lady Dacey, @PrettyPig and @Varysblackfyre321--what do we make of the Faceless Men as a religious group involving themselves in Balon's death?   This is the murder of a king, after all.   Was this for money or an urgent desire to get Euron in power?   Paid for by a dragon egg?  

Oh boy. I had a bit of an accident this weekend and really doozied myself up, and just took my prescriptions about 12 minutes ago and they are kicking in , so, allow me a little bit of time to thumb through some stories. However, off the top of my bouffant, the story The Glass Flower comes to mind first. However, in many of GRRM’s other stories you have references to “he changed his face”, like we see described with Eddard and Robb when they change roles. In one story, Bitterblooms, we even have an incredibly Arya-like character that keeps and wears a leather face mask with her. She lives in a harsh winter climate and she has a weird experience with the near exact Melisandre prototype, Morgan LaFey. 

[LynnS]

I've always wondered if the first faceless men appear on the Isle of Faces when the trees were given faces and if the founder of the Faceless Men was actually a green man went wandering when he heard the voices of the slaves.

Is it a coincidence that the Kindly Old Man in the HoB&W presents a face to Arya that is so similar to Bloodraven's:

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A Feast for Crows - Arya I

"Let us see." The priest lowered his cowl. Beneath he had no face; only a yellowed skull with a few scraps of skin still clinging to the cheeks, and a white worm wriggling from one empty eye socket. "Kiss me, child," he croaked, in a voice as dry and husky as a death rattle.

Does he think to scare me? Arya kissed him where his nose should be and plucked the grave worm from his eye to eat it, but it melted like a shadow in her hand.

The yellow skull was melting too, and the kindliest old man that she had ever seen was smiling down at her. "No one has ever tried to eat my worm before," he said. "Are you hungry, child?"

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

So I'm guessing that Bloodraven is him of many faces; perhaps one in a long line of greenseers.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

This conversation is in the context of greenseers but the language is also interesting: the gods mark those to receive the gift; the chosen ones are not robust; every song has it's balance and specific reference to skins.

The song must be balanced as Jaqen tells Arya; she stole three lives from the fiery god and they must be paid back with three deaths. So the FM keep a balance between ice and fire. 

Coldhands is another version of a grumpkin or FM to use Arya's term.  Sam must promise three times not to speak of Bran for the 'life' he owes Coldhands (Sam, Gilly and Monster).

So I'm not sure that green men are confined to the God's Eye and whether or not the founder of the HoB&W or the first FM was a wandering green man. 

 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

So what if Martin read The Wizard of Oz and little shrivelled, bloodthirsty rat  men/guys are hiding behind the curtain.  All the religions are a front.

[Lady Dacey]

26 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

So what if Martin read The Wizard of Oz and little shrivelled, bloodthirsty rat  men/guys are hiding behind the curtain.  All the religions are a front.

Might very well be Martin's "message". But in asoiaf the magic is real.  And the way each religion deals with it is very different... so I believe it's worth it to look closer at each one. They have different motivations and different goals, I think, even if none of them hold "the Truth". 

[hiemal]

I suspect that the MFG is actually the Moon, with the New Moon being associated with death and tied to the pool in the HoBaW and contrasted with the full moon of the Moon Pool where the Water Dancers duel. Death is only one of the faces of the MFG, others being found as phases (faces) of the moon as on the temple of the moonsingers and on the gold coins in the Iron Bank.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I suspect that the MFG is actually the Moon, with the New Moon being associated with death and tied to the pool in the HoBaW and contrasted with the full moon of the Moon Pool where the Water Dancers duel. Death is only one of the faces of the MFG, others being found as phases (faces) of the moon as on the temple of the moonsingers and on the gold coins in the Iron Bank.

Can you point me to a quote about gold coins in the iron bank showing the moon? Thanks!

[The Fattest Leech]

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I'm not sure that green men are confined to the God's Eye

I think I agree with this. (I have medicine head at the moment )

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

and whether or not the founder of the HoB&W or the first FM was a wandering green man. 
 

and here too. I do not see a real connection the the HoBW and green men. I know GRRM has given some parallel visuals, but I tend to think those are just story-themed descriptions, maybe red herrings???, and used as a cover/distraction in some way to the real truth of the HoBW mission. I am not claiming to know anymore than other readers on what the Faceless men purpose is, but they seem very separate to the green magicks, in my opinion.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've always wondered if the first faceless men appear on the Isle of Faces when the trees were given faces and if the founder of the Faceless Men was actually a green man went wandering when he heard the voices of the slaves.

Is it a coincidence that the Kindly Old Man in the HoB&W presents a face to Arya that is so similar to Bloodraven's:

So I'm guessing that Bloodraven is him of many faces; perhaps one in a long line of greenseers.

This conversation is in the context of greenseers but the language is also interesting: the gods mark those to receive the gift; the chosen ones are not robust; every song has it's balance and specific reference to skins.

The song must be balanced as Jaqen tells Arya; she stole three lives from the fiery god and they must be paid back with three deaths. So the FM keep a balance between ice and fire. 

Coldhands is another version of a grumpkin or FM to use Arya's term.  Sam must promise three times not to speak of Bran for the 'life' he owes Coldhands (Sam, Gilly and Monster).

So I'm not sure that green men are confined to the God's Eye and whether or not the founder of the HoB&W or the first FM was a wandering green man. 

Interesting!

I also notice the connection (or rather what appears an intentionally similar description), especially between Bloodraven and the Kindly Man’s glamoured face (when Arya eats the worm).

But it’s possibly important that the Faceless Man’s illusion of a literally faceless head, is an illusion. Whereas Bloodraven, no matter how he appears in a dream, is literally a grisly talking corpse. They are almost reversals.

Bloodraven also appears (admittedly to me) to be using his powers to “enslave” others, be they people or animals... The Faceless Men are seemingly founded as anti-slavery.

Of course we don’t know yet what the Faceless Men are under their disguises after they have given up all their parts to Him of Many Faces. There may be an added connection with Faceless Men giving up their privates and “giving ones seed”.

Also, we see that the Faces under the House of Black and White and the ravens in Bloodraven’s hollow hill retain some memories of their previous owners. 

Both locations also sport open flames of interest, Bran seems to see something while staring into the flames, and Arya smells home (Winterfell) in the Faceless Men’s Candles.

Then there is the question of prolonged life... We know Bloodraven has lived far beyond a normal lifespan. Is the same true of the Faceless Men? Is it possible that the Original Faceless Man is still alive?

Anyway, love the topic...

[hiemal]

57 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Can you point me to a quote about gold coins in the iron bank showing the moon? Thanks!

The many faces on the coins are those of the rulers who typically grace such currency- sorry if I wasn't very clear. They are another counterpart, like the pools, of the lunar faces (phases).

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The many faces on the coins are those of the rulers who typically grace such currency- sorry if I wasn't very clear. They are another counterpart, like the pools?

I always liked that the head on the iron coin Arya gets was Faceless. 

But, I have considered that the Iron Bank gets rulers to serve it through financial means and that this well may be another arm of the same organization. 

[Lady Dacey]

My god, you are bringing so much interesting stuff I don't know where to begin! I'm glad I worked up the courage to start the thread. It's delightful to read your thoughts. 

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, side note, I find the “red darkness” a fascinating turn of phrase, and part of my suspicion that the Faceless man are more a combination of fire and ice than simply a face of the great other, as some have speculated.

LiveFirstDieLater, I love your input. The "red darkness" is a strong image in a book where color imagery is so meaningful. I have some stuff up my sleeve about the R'hllor/MFG connection I was saving for a separate thread, but with you and @Varysblackfyre321 talking so much about it I might share it here. Before I explore that more concrete connection in a post full of quotes, though, I feel there's some symbolism to "red darkness" that we can try to puzzle here. From the top of my head the red darkness immediately makes me think of a darkroom, where traditional film photography is developed from negatives. I don't know if you are familiar with the processes, and I don't know the jargon for it in english, but I've worked with film fotography and something very interesting happens: in the developing solution the black becomes white and white becomes black. Just like in the red darkness of the mines of Valyria life becomes punishment and death becomes mercy? I feel like @Seams would enjoy this symbolic connection! 

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

There is another odd contradiction here, Braavos was founded by freed slaves, and if the Faceless Men were directly responsible or collaborators they do seem to oppose slavery. However, at the same time a core belief is that “all men must serve” and the first faceless man demands service from the second for the rest of his life.

Sounds like a paradox to me too. 

 

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Power is a shadow on the wall, and shadows can kill.

But the question remains, are the Faceless Men really getting direction from somewhere, or just making things up as they go along... sacrifice and prayer are one thing, actually hearing a gods voice is another.

Uh, now my brain is melting trying to fit Varys in. I know some people propose he is a faceless men himself but I don't buy it. I think this is more about Martin trying to get us to think. I have said before that to me one of the most important mysteries about the FM is how they know who has been marked, how they communicate with their god. 

Flames speaking... there's R'hllor again. I guess I'll have to spill the beans about that guy hahahahah 

[Lady Dacey]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In one story, Bitterblooms, we even have an incredibly Arya-like character that keeps and wears a leather face mask with her. She lives in a harsh winter climate and she has a weird experience with the near exact Melisandre prototype, Morgan LaFey. 

You've convinced to read it. It's like, the next thing I'm doing. 

[Archangel Lucifer]

There is only God and the rest  Seven Rhollor old gods   the great other are his many faces