NFL V - Turkey Day Edition.

[The Wedge]

With regard to the intensity of tackling and padding, there is an aspect that cannot be overlooked: The surfaces that players are on today are much faster and consistent than they used to be. Sport Turf (or whatever the newest version of artificial turf is called) speeds up the game over a real grass field that gets ripped up over the course of a game.

As well, players are just downright faster and stronger than ever. 300 pound linemen running sub-4 second 40 yard dashes. That's some serious energy coming at a quarterback or runner with the ball.

Anecdotally, just 24 years ago the game was swept up in William "The Refrigerator" Perry mania. The Fridge was over 300 pounds and a monster in his rookie year. Nowadays he would be just average.

In some aspects the game is just getting too big, fast, and strong to avoid injuries despite improvements in padding.

[Bronn Stone]

Everybody is dancing around the real issue in NFL safety these days.

Your average NFL lineman (offensive or defensive) is on more 'roids than your average Tour de France TEAM. They are just really good at beating the faux testing programs.

[Arakasi]

Ehh, I don't think that matters really much Bronn. Sure they might be on roids, but it is not offensive linemen that are causing the big injuries here. What is is the high speed collision of players, often on special teams and on regular plays usually between linebackers and dbs and receivers/rbs.

While yes there is definitely long term impact on player health from the linemen clashing at the scrimmage line, it is still less of a problem than big open field hits, where we get most of the catastrophic injuries.

[Slyfinger]

Ehh, I don't think that matters really much Bronn. Sure they might be on roids, but it is not offensive linemen that are causing the big injuries here. What is is the high speed collision of players, often on special teams and on regular plays usually between linebackers and dbs and receivers/rbs.

While yes there is definitely long term impact on player health from the linemen clashing at the scrimmage line, it is still less of a problem than big open field hits, where we get most of the catastrophic injuries.

I believe you have lost me, sir.

[Green Apple Fossoway]

Yes, there have been fatalities. Earlier in the sport, American football was almost banned. In 1905 there were 19 deaths.

Here's some supporting documentation.

My university's football stadium is named in honor of someone who died as a result of injuries sustained in a football game (Jack Trice). He died of hemorrhaged lungs and internal bleeding throughout his abdomen a day or two after being trampled in a game against Minnesota.

[Ran]

If you read about football around the turn of the 20th century, it wasn't really the equipment that was behind these deaths and injuries. It was a far more unruly sport. For all the violence of the sport today, back at the start of things it was really just a lot of wanton brutality. It was the "unnecessary roughness" that the contemporaneous article mentions. Dudes would link up arms to clothesline tackle opponents, people were stomping on one another, things like that.

I don't think that sort of sport play would fly today.

[Green Apple Fossoway]

If you read about football around the turn of the 20th century, it wasn't really the equipment that was behind these deaths and injuries. It was a far more unruly sport. For all the violence of the sport today, back at the start of things it was really just a lot of wanton brutality. It was the "unnecessary roughness" that the contemporaneous article mentions. Dudes would link up arms to clothesline tackle opponents, people were stomping on one another, things like that.

I don't think that sort of sport play would fly today.

That's true. If I remember correctly, Trice was trampled by a Minnesota back (It's also debatable whether or not it was on purpose, as Trice was ISU's first black athlete and he wasn't even allowed to eat with the rest of the team while up in Minnesota.)

[Arakasi]

I believe you have lost me, sir.

I'm not sure what I'm missing here. Offensive and defensive linemen clash at the line before they have time to get any real speed up. Most of the concussions and such come from open field tackles, where the players have a while to get up to speed. Just watching the two college games today and last night (Cinci/Illinois and Texas/A&M) and once each in those games a player was out for a while because of an open field hit. Last night it was a special teams play on a kick return. Today it was a receiver getting leveled by a db who hit with his helmet.

Now yes there is studies that are showing that the repeated clashes at the scrimmage line are doing repeating impacts to the brain and causing long term brain injuries, but since everyone on the football field is hitting eachother I would think everyone other than kickers is going to have that problem. Look at the majority of rule changes recently. We have the Hines Ward rule which is basically there since Ward took it on himself to constantly make picks on defenders and knock them out. We have spearing issues, which only happens at speed, you can't have an offensive linemen and defensive linemen spear eachother, they don't get up to enough speed before they're wrestling eachother. We have rules for not leaving your feet, for not hitting in the back, and in general for not hitting players who can't defend themselves.

Most injuries inside the line actually tend to be leg injuries, because with so many people around that often players step on another player and wrench their knee, or someone falls down on their knee from behind where they couldn't do anything to prevent it. I don't think any amount of rule changes would make things much safer for the hogs in the injuries that usually get them. What the NFL though really has been wary about and where all the focus has been lately is high speed impacts. Open field tackles, spearing, levelling the QB on a blitz, hits to the head, blindside hits, leaping off the ground to deliver hits and so on.

Edit: What is the worst publicity for the NFL, the thing they want the least. That is the time stoppage where they have to bring in a stretcher to pull an unconscious player off the field. The vast majority of those hits take place from open field tackling, most often in special teams play or in the secondary. Not at the line of scrimmage.

I don't see there being much point to trying to protect people from leg injuries. They happen routinely but are also almost impossible to make rule changes to protect the players.

[ljkeane]

Guys I think you're really overestimating the likelyhood of further injuries without all this protective equipment. I don't want to go over the top comparing sports as obviously they're different but both Rugby Union and League feature players who are a similar size to the NFL players outside of the offensive/defensive lineman and League is more of a collision sport like American football. These sports function fine without all the protective equipment, players are perfectly capable of not leading with their heads in tackles and I doubt they would without the helmets they wear.

Some

of Rugby League tackles, plus a few Rugby Union examples;

,

,

and Brian Lima.

I was joking yesterday about American Football players not being tough but I do think that all the equipment they wear is unnecessary and for me personally I think the game would be more entertaing to watch without it. I do appreciate that it might mean sacrificing some of the big collisions and that might not appeal to others.

[Swordfish]

I was joking to an extent but I do think all the padding is a bit excessive, the only players who really need the crash helmets so far as I can see are the wide receivers who are getting speared into the ground. I appreciate that the players are tough and that that the padding facilitates bigger hits but to be honest for me because of that it's less impressive than a big hit in rugby without the pads.

I just find all of the protection a bit over the top having played and watched contact sports that do without all my life, while I do appreciate that there are reasons for some of it. :dunno:

Spoken like someone who has obviously never payed american football in full pads.....

[Arakasi]

Spoken like someone who has obviously never payed american football in full pads.....

Well isn't that the point? If they didn't have the protective gear on they wouldn't make these hits, because it would hurt the hitter as much as the player being hit?

[ljkeane]

Spoken like someone who has obviously never payed american football in full pads.....

I have played contact sports without pads though and I've seen American Football played with pads and I know people who've done both, the only significant difference I've seen is the tackling in the air and sometimes the players intentionally leading with their helmets.

ETA: Look I don't want to get over the top criticising American Football or comparing it to other sports in this thread, I do enjoy watching American Football and I don't think because they wear the padding the players aren't tough. I'm just of the opinion the the level of padding etc is more than is strictly needed.

[Jaime L]

What has changed is the speed of the game, but that is because of changes in rules and equipment. Also sports has changed hugely from then in that it is really an industry now. Athletes back then were often times not full time. Baseball for a long time was seasonal work. Now it is full time work where year round players are making themselves better, stronger and faster. But I have no doubts that the stars of yesterday would be able to compete today.

The stars of yesterday would be able to compete today, but what about the other 90% of the league? The 250 pound O-lineman? The 6'0" tall QBs? The 4.9 40 RBs? The speed of the game hasn't changed due to equipment or rules...those are almost ancillary details. The speed of the game has changed because the athlete playing the game, all 22 men on the field, are now, across the board, ridiculous athletic freaks in a way unimaginable even 25 years ago. NFLers, even as recently as the 70s or 80s, simply are not comparable as a group. A few superstars here and there had either the size or the speed or both, but taken as a group, the prior generations of NFLers are like Model Ts compared with today's Ferraris and Hummers. We just plain don't know what it'll mean to re-introduce the modern equivalent of leather helmets to this group. I just have a hard time imagining Chris Johnson all of a sudden not hitting the hole at his 4.2 40 speed because he's wearing a different kind of helmet. And I don't see Troy Polamalu all of a sudden deciding not to fill that hole because he was coming in at full speed and so was Chris Johnson and it would be an ugly collision. These guys only play at one speed. So even if you reduce the number of reckless spearings and impalings that occur in today's game, you've still got no way to address the core underlying issue of ridiculous athletes colliding at ridiculous speeds. Until you're willing to enforce that only players of certain size and certain athleticism can play the game, you're still going to have the problem of what happens when giant men collide at high speeds regardless of what helmets you decide are best.

Really, I think focusing on the recklessness of certain players is an easy target. It looks brutal and is often replayed over and over again. But of all the injuries I've seen this season, and as a Redskin fan, I've seen any number of season-enders (not to mention a litany of concussions and brutal hits to boot), the vast majority of the time they occur in far tamer circumstances, during the play-by-play grind of being out there 70-80 plays a game, or the angle of how they happen collide, or how they fall into another guy. It's chaos out there and no matter how careful you might be, you're not in control of what the other 21 guys are doing out there...even when it's completely unrelated to what you're doing.

One final point I'd like to make is, while you might be right that current helmets don't actually protect as well as softer ones....I'd really like to see some proof on that. I have a hard time believing they'd stick with the helmets they're using across all levels of football, even pee-wee football, if these weren't superior.

[Arakasi]

About the helmets, they had it on ESPN I think a couple weeks ago. It was on their website too iirc. But the general idea was helmets that had a much larger soft shell on the inside were safer for concussions than the norm. It has also come up in hockey as well, since there is somewhat of a concussion problem going on in that sport too, although that is mainly from the removal of all the obstruction calls that has sped up the game and has created more open ice hits.

Here is a couple articles on helmets in sports that I was able to come up with just now though:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/...tory?id=4392045

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/...tory?id=4392045

General premise is the same though, larger shell or padding or shocks on the inside make for a safer playing experience.

As for the hits at speed, I think as the rugby examples show that there would still be plenty of hits. It just would be different and safer. You are right that most injuries would still be injuries, like for example you could never make a rule that would have stopped Ben from getting the concussion he got last week. That was a freak play and it will always happen. But you can absolutely get the worst hits out of the game. One thing that struck me comparing those rugby hits to NFL hits is the nature of them. In the rugby ones the player making the hit would wrap the player up with their arms and would often even slam them to the ground. But they would always wrap up. Compare that to football, where half the time the hit isn't a tackle but more of a throwing shoulder, usually launched at full speed into the player. You make the game more about tackling and wrapping up and it would be fine. It is always going to be a physical sport, but you can take the worst out of it.

One more note about the helmets. Looking at the link I linked there about football helmets, they're not cheap. Several hundred dollars per helmet, and really to maximize effectiveness they need to be fitted to the individual. Little league football (well other than if you live in Texas) just doesn't have that kind of money to throw around.

Edit: To be blunt here, the only injuries anyone cares about here is head injuries. There are of course ways to reduce other injuries like no leg whipping or horse collar tackles, but the vast majority of lower body injuries in football are not controllable. Head injuries though are, and there are ways both by changing the rules or changing the equipment that can make the game safer for all involved.

[awesome possum]

You also gotta take into account that most of the players on the field are literally worth millions of dollars to their respective franchises. They're an investment and if you're an owner you don't want to unnecessarily risk your investments.

[Arakasi]

Looks like Ben and the Steelers are going to play it safe this weekend. He is sitting and Dixon is going to get his first start. Hope he does well. (aka doesn't get killed)

[Mexal]

Looks like Ben and the Steelers are going to play it safe this weekend. He is sitting and Dixon is going to get his first start. Hope he does well. (aka doesn't get killed)

I hope he doesn't. I hate to say this but definitely rooting for the Ravens this week. We could use the lead.

[Bronn Stone]

Definitely glad to see Ben making the right choice. It really isn't worth it.

[Gold Storm]

It's the right thing, if batch was healthy it would not have even been a question. I also want too see how Dixon does.

[Rockroi]

From what I heard (ie - my local radio station) the theory is that the NFL put a TON of pressure on the Steelers to have Ben sit. In other words- when push came to shove, the NFL put its money where its mouth was an insisted that teams actually do what the NFL was mandating: take care of the players.

If that is the case (and I really have no more info than anyone else) than NFL, the Steelers, and Ben all deserve credit for "doing the right thing." The pressures on a player and a team to play (especially with the playoffs rapidly approaching) is tremendous. To basically say "these guys and their health are more important that the game itself" is really strong. The NFL should begin to collect a list of players who sit out games as examples of how teams should be properly run. This will never happen, but it should. We are SO QUICK to point to a guy who plays hurt as being "a warrior" but we should also point with pride to the players and say "he is a smart warrior."

Again, this will never happen.