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Angalin

R+L=J v.44

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Oh, you know, the usual. Discussion of the World of Ice and Fire app belongs in the appropriate thread, please.

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@The Hamburglar

After the battle of the bells Aerys sent Ser Barristan with Jonothor Darry to gather the remnants of royalist army that lost that battle and rally them to the Trident. This suggests that Selmy was at KL with Aerys before that so no, I don't think he was ever with Rhaegar at the TOJ.

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Selmy was fatally wounded at the Trident... So I don't really see where Selmy would have had the time/chance to go to the TOJ.

I think it stands to reason the wound wasn't fatal. However, I agree Selmy and the ToJ are unrelated.

The tourney is where they met, apparently, but nothing suggests that that's where he "abducted" her.

I'd go further than that. It appears to me he couldn't possibly have "abducted" her there. Her absence would instantly have been noticed, and Robert's Rebellion would have begun months before we know it did.

It's very clear that Barristan doesn't think of himself as being in Rhaegar's inner circle, which I think is GRRM's way of telling us he doesn't know squat about Jon.

Or, when it comes to personal matters, Rhaegar.

Re my alternate theory: Good Christ, you people are prolific. I leave for two days, come back, and there are pages and pages of new thread comments to wade through. The Heresy thread is even worse.

It does appear to me that at least ten people would read the writeup, though, so I am going to post it on LiveJournal and link to it here. Why?

1. Sheer length, and LJ supports threaded comments, which work better for branched discussion of complex ideas. This site doesn't, so it's just one comment after another.

2. I have the impression new threads here take uncertain periods of time to be approved by mods and published. I've read complaints to this effect.

3. Anyone can always cite and discuss my theory here should there be any desire to do so. I don't want to be accused of hijacking a thread that, by its name, ought properly to be confined to discussing the R+L=J theory per se.

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Quote

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Throneshas been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

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I think it stands to reason the wound wasn't fatal. However, I agree Selmy and the ToJ are unrelated.

I'd go further than that. It appears to me he couldn't possibly have "abducted" her there. Her absence would instantly have been noticed, and Robert's Rebellion would have begun months before we know it did.

Now that has me thinking. Where did Rhaegar supposedly abduct her? I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned or not.

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I think it stands to reason the wound wasn't fatal. However, I agree Selmy and the ToJ are unrelated.

Oh I'm sorry *severely* wounded :rolleyes: and yes please post that alternate theory link really looking forward to reading it!

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If it is true whats most likely is that during the tourney Rhaegar and Lyanna planned out the whole "abduction" so probably at somepoint on the road most likely before the neck

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R+L=J keeps making more and mroe sense to me.

It seems Lyanna died in childbirth with Jon to boot.

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Now that has me thinking. Where did Rhaegar supposedly abduct her? I'm not sure if it was ever mentioned or not.

A few of us think he took her from Harrenhal, but after the tournament. We know that Dayne and Whent helped him out and Harrenhal was Whent's home. He knows the place and the area. The Whents were going to be Lyanna's in-laws, and they had a daughter who was probably around her age. It made sense for her to stay there and become socialized in the south and wait until Brandon and Catelyn's wedding instead of trekking all the way back up north only to turn around and come back. It also provides two possible modes of marriage: Septon Meribald on his circuit, and the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces.

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@jonicefyre: without deliberating on the app in the RLJ threads: Meera mentions in the KOTLT story that a black brother is present at ToH. The GRRM-sanctioned app (which I think westerns.org founders wrote with the help/approval of Martin) extrapolates this further to indicate that Benjen was moved/inspired by the calling of the NW and its creed.

Given the textual support in GoT (i.e., Benjen's steadfast adherence to the purpose of the NW); and what is further fleshed out in the app, to say that Benjen joins the NW solely because of his knowledge/involvement in RLJ ignores the historical, symbolic and metaphysical significance that the Starks have with the Wall and the NW.

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A few of us think he took her from Harrenhal, but after the tournament.

IA. Where does Ellia's pregnancy with Aegon (and knowledge thereof) fit into this?

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@jonicefyre: without deliberating on the app in the RLJ threads: Meera mentions in the KOTLT story that a black brother is present at ToH. The GRRM-sanctioned app (which I think westerns.org founders wrote with the help/approval of Martin) extrapolates this further to indicate that Benjen was moved/inspired by the calling of the NW and its creed.

Given the textual support in GoT (i.e., Benjen's steadfast adherence to the purpose of the NW); and what is further fleshed out in the app, to say that Benjen joins the NW solely because of his knowledge/involvement in RLJ ignores the historical, symbolic and metaphysical significance that the Starks have with the Wall and the NW.

Wtf? I never said it was soley based on the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation nor did I say I didn't believe what the app was saying, I think it's a combination of both Rhaegar and Lyanna as well as the apps info all I wanted to know was where/what was the apps source and I see that it's the story of the KOTLT that's I wanted to know nothing else. So you don't have to try to sell me/out debate me on the validation of the app's info I just wanted to know what was the source that's all....Jesus fucking Christ!

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Wtf? I never said it was soley based on the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation nor did I say I didn't believe what the app was saying, I think it's a combination of both Rhaegar and Lyanna as well as the apps info all I wanted to know was where/what was the apps source and I see that it's the story of the KOTLT that's I wanted to know nothing else. So you don't have to try to sell me/ out debate me on the validation of the app's info I just wanted to know what was the source that's all....Jesus Christ!

Are you serious? Wow. I apologize for I did not intend this response.

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Are you serious? Wow. I apologize for I did not intend this response.

There's nothing to apologize about. :D Sorry bout that, today was a rough day at work im a little on edge at the moment :bang:. For what it's worth I agree with what your saying it was never about the validity for me, I just wanted to know the apps source for the sake of reading it myself not to challenge the app.

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There's nothing to apologize about. :D Sorry bout that, today was a rough day at work im a little on edge at the moment :bang:. For what it's worth I agree with what your saying it was never about the validity for me, I just wanted to know the apps source for the sake of reading it myself not to challenge the app.

I gotcha ya. I should've framed my post in a different way as it was not a critique of your previous comments.

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A few of us think he took her from Harrenhal, but after the tournament. We know that Dayne and Whent helped him out and Harrenhal was Whent's home. He knows the place and the area. The Whents were going to be Lyanna's in-laws, and they had a daughter who was probably around her age. It made sense for her to stay there and become socialized in the south and wait until Brandon and Catelyn's wedding instead of trekking all the way back up north only to turn around and come back. It also provides two possible modes of marriage: Septon Meribald on his circuit, and the weirwoods on the Isle of Faces.

I see how that could work. So since it was probably done in front of a heart tree, do you think Bran will be the one to break the news to us? It seems like a likely outcome.

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So there was this panel with some Game of Thrones people RR Martin, Kit, Masie, Sophie, Lena, Peter, D&D, etc. tonight

so there were a couple things that I found interesting the most interesting point was when George was talking about the first lunch he had with D&D when they pitched the show. Then the host of the event tonight turned from Martin to D&D and asked about the famous question they "apparently had to guess" at the lunch.

To which D&D obviously assumed he was asking the question of "Who is Jon Snow's mother" which is they explained was not clearly stated in the books and their response was something like:

He[Martin] didn't even tell us at that point if we had it correct or not.... but his smile was a tell that we'd gotten it right.

I'd always heard that they'd gotten it right, but I didn't know that GRRM didn't even tell them right away. That's funny to me.

ETA: here is a link to the panel from WiC: http://t.co/lbu85khBET

Here is the link direct from Emmys.com: http://www.emmys.com/game-of-thrones

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I'd always heard that they'd gotten it right, but I didn't know that GRRM didn't even tell them right away. That's funny to me.

There's an interview floating around (I think it's in EW) where they did say they got it right. In this interview, they say Martin didn't say yes or no at the time, but they did also mention that the answer is shocking. Certainly, Ashara, Wylla nor the fisherman's daughter would be shocking.

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Rough draft transcript from last night Emmy panel:

GRRM: "I asked them (D&D) a few questions to determine whether they had actually read the books. They gave me the right answers."

Weiss: "He asked us... Shall I say the question? He asked us who's Jon Snow's mother... And we had discussed this before. We gave an answer. A shocking answer. George at that point never actually said whether we were right or wrong but the smile on his face was a tell. We passed the test"

I suddenly feel compelled to go back to discuss rubies metaphors and textual symbology :leer:

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Rough draft transcript from last night Emmy panel:

GRRM: "I asked them (D&D) a few questions to determine whether they had actually read the books. They gave me the right answers."

Weiss: "He asked us... Shall I say the question? He asked us who's Jon Snow's mother... And we had discussed this before. We gave an answer. A shocking answer. George at that point never actually said whether we were right or wrong but the smile on his face was a tell. We passed the test"

I suddenly feel compelled to go back to discuss rubies methaphors and textual simbology :leer:

:cough: blue winter roses :cough:

Sorry, must be coming down with something. Probably allergies. You know, from bl.. never mind. :P

ETA: Or Tormund's member. Pretty much of equal symbolic value.

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