LynnS

Hells bells! I hope I can maintain the standards of Black Crow's cunning plan. Co-incidence? No. Although Grey Wind and Lady are written off, the other four are significant to someone's plan. Nymeria is described as having eyes like gold coins and Arya is destined to join the Faceless Men with her coin of passage. While Nymeria, like her namesake becomes queen of the super-pack. The fact that Arya can connect with her direwolf from across the Narrow Sea is quite astounding. We learn from an interview with GRRM is the book "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon"; that George has significant plans for Shaggy and Rickon. Shaggy has eyes of green fire and I wonder what that signifies. We know about red and blue fires in the eyes of the red lot and blue lot. Who has green fire in their eyes and I'm guessing it's the green men. Rickon seems to have the ability to warg more than one direwolf at a time. Bran observes him playing with Shaggy and Summer; who both threaten Tyrion when he stops at Winterfell on his way back from the Wall. Bran struggles to get Summer back under control. In Tyrion 1, he says that hearing the direwolves howl at night, makes him feel like running naked with the pack through the woods; and I wonder if this best describes Rickon's disposition. A warg who can control Nymeria and her pack. I think whatever plans Wyman Manderly and Robert Glover have for him; I think that will be secondary to Bran's plans. I say Bran because he has expressed a desire to teach his siblings how to fly. I'll go straight to the time and causality clause from here. Although I know people love to hate this idea. It's a fact straight out of GRRM's mouth or head. So be warned, close your eyes and plug your ears if you desire. We know something of Hodor being damaged/altered by Bran, by events still in Bran's future. The causal event could have occurred initially at Queenscrown, the first time Bran takes over Hodor's body. GRRM has said that Hodor is only afraid of two things. We can guess these are thunderstorms and Bran's repeated violations. GRRM also said that the damage was cumulative. So although the causal affect shows up all at once: Hodor's damaged mind and his seeming inability to communicate (mutesness): when does "hold the door" or "hodor" occur? GRRM has commented in "Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon" that hold the door was really more like hold the passage. I don't know who wrote the iconic episode of Hodor holding the door against the Night King and the wights; but it must have been Hokey the Jokester. When somebody tells you to hold the door; they usually mean "keep it open". So I think the passageway and the door that GRRM is referring to is the path to Bloodraven's cave. This is the desperate fight with the wights when Bran once again takes Hodor's body and fights off the wights, so everyone makes it to safety through the cave door and the protective wards. It's extraordinary the power that Bran feels in this moment. He is bellowing Hodor the whole time and I think this is the event that causes Walder to say hodor. I bring this up because there is another time and causality event in Bran 1, even before Hodor makes it to the page. This occurs with Jon and Ghost. Ghost is the only pup with his eyes open and is also mute. The extraordinary thing is that Jon can hear Ghost in his mind. I trace the causal event to the Skirling Pass when Jon encounters Tree-Bran in a wolf dream. Bran tells him that he can show him (things) but first he has to open his eyes and then Bran touches Ghost. Eyes plural. Jon, the reluctant warg, has to learn how to see with his 3rd eye through Ghost's eyes... before he can fly? This establishes that Bran can communicate with Jon through Ghost and potentially with Arya and Rickon in the same manner. I wonder what lessons Bran has in store for Jon.

I'll have more to say about this in the Bran I Heresy thread. This is also on my mind: "Under the sea" could mean a few things: the underground cave of the greenseers, under a sea of trees or under a sea of snow. Is Patchface telling us that the wights/whites are "crows" under the snow? Or the white walkers are crows made of snow? Are the crows men of the Watch?

I don't have a lot to say about most things; that haven't already been said before, somewhere in Westeros. Of all the book characters, Bran interests me the most. I'm interested in any revised thinking or insights about what Bran is or will become. And, of course, when have we ever stuck to one topic in any Heresy thread?

It looks to me like opinions are very firm. So I don't know where the conversation would go from here. I don't have anything else to say about it. But if you want to continue with it; that's fine with me.

Well opinions are on the table for this prologue and I think its done for now. Why not go onto the next chapter, Bran I and have a look at that again. We could follow Brans arc through AGOT. I haven't done that before. I have a few thoughts about Bran I at any rate.

This is really interesting, especially comments made by GRRM: GRRM makes the rules and then he likes to break them. Who breaks the rules in this story? Jon, Arya, Bran .....

I'm very interested in how light and the light spectrum is being used in this story. Although I think the blue glow; the element that changes the color of the wight's eyes is something else. Something magical. In the prologue of a Dance with Dragons; Thistle claws out here eyes when Varamyr tries to take her body. Then the cold strikes and Thistle dies. Varamyr later describes the blue flame in her eye sockets when she turns to look at him. He says "She sees me." As to the thinness of obsidian being transparent; I think obsidian in any form is deadly to WWs and not something they can handle or manipulate. When Sam plinks the WW; that spell that holds it together is broken, so says GRRM. The obsidian is so cold, it can't be handled immediately. It draws out the cold and perhaps captures it and locks it into the stone. The blue cold seems analogous to the soul or animating component of the WW snow/ice form. It is a form of second life and thus, they can be said to be living creatures. Second lives seem to be the domain of skinchangers and wargs; so while Varamyr fails in his attempt to take Thistle; the WWs seem to be making use of her body in the manner of a skinchanger controlling their familiar animals. They see through their eyes, or lack of them, for one thing. Which raises the question of whether the cold is generated by the WWs themselves and what is the nature of their souls? They certainly seem to be individuals. They communicate in AGOT. I've wondered if Waymar's challenger was giving a demonstration of sorts to his brothers. The men of the Watch don't understand their language but they get that the tone or gist of it is mocking them. What we do know about the blue flame is that red fire overcomes it; destroying the vessel and forcing it out. This doesn't seem to be true of the Others themselves but only the wights acting as and extension of will of the WWs. Their tools and instruments in other words. They can't pass the Wall themselves but their dopplegangers can be brought across the wards during the day when they are inactive. That's very cunning.

Thank you for your interesting thoughts and reflections. This in particular has been a question on my mind. I wonder how or when WWs come into existence as creatures of ice and snow and cold. What connection is there between trees and the WWs. Do the trees hold the souls of the Others until they are mobilized as white walkers. Are the WWs themselves soldiers and sentinels? I've wondered if the plopping of snow off a sentinel tree or soldier pine indicates that a WW has just taken on its icy form. I do think their swords are made of an ice so cold and hard, that striking it with metal would be like hitting stone. I don't know how good castle forged steel would be in such a contest. I imagine it could be chipped or splintered. After repeated contact with the Others blade; Waymars sword is covered in hoarfrost. I don't know if that exacerbates any flaws or weaknesses in Waymars blade. I'm inclined to think its Waymars sword that shatters like glass. I'm not really sure where Waymars party is located on the map when they encounter the Others. I'm guessing they are near the Fist of the First Men where the Watch encounters the wights for the first time. We could be getting into some hilly country, so I don'r know if the place where Waymars party is a ridge or caldera. Certainly there is a lot of geothermal activity in the area. We have sink holes and caves where you can get a hot bath. I don't know about active volcanos though. Certainly in the past. That explains the obsidian. I'm not sure what Waymar thinks he hears. He may be sensing a change in the environment, sensing that it has become very cold all of a sudden. He becomes more alert, an adrenaline reaction perhaps?

Which made me wonder if they can alter a weapon that they have at hand. Melisander says the Others are made of snow and ice and cold. It's not ordinary ice, well, because it's flexible and allows for subtle movement. Ice spiders come to mind. I make the blue component to be "the cold" part of it. The part that she refers to as the soul of ice. I think the blue glow can only be in the sword so long as the WW has contact with it.

Some pretty fancy swordplay for a WW, don't ya think. You don't see any of that in the AGOT Prologue. I wonder where it learned those moves. And where does it get the sword in the first place? Does it come with the kit when the WW is made or do they make their own weapons? And what happens if they drop their weapon? Does it turn back into ordinary ice? Lose its blue glow? As usual, I only have questions and no answers.

We do get a description of this type of sword in Storm of Swords: I don't know what it is other than extremely cold and something like ice blue crystal. The bit where the sword twists and spins sounds like the sword is changing its physical shape as Sam watches.

Sure, I only bring it up because it's what GRRM said about ice and fire, I'm not big on interpreting everything symbolically; it's not how my brain works. I'm not sure about the dragon riders though and who is going to ride them. I think one dragon will be killed in the next book and it looks like Viserion and Moqorro are going to get their hands on one. I do think Rhaegar wanted a son and two daughters to be the three heads of the dragon; one of whom would be the prince who was promised to bring back the dragons. It turns out that Dany is the third head who brings back the dragons. Aemon confirms this and says that WE thought it was a prince. Who the heck is WE? It makes me think that Rhaeher, Aemon and Bloodraven were having some discussion about it and perhaps Aegon's prophecy of the song of ice and fire. This might be the most useful tidbit to come out of the House of Dragons so far. GRRM does seem to be somewhat flexible about canon these days; lessons learned and all that I suppose. Valyria was not cuddly and I don't find much to love about Melisandre. Thoros is a different matter. As for the song itself, perhaps we should say songs, plural. If this is the great lore or something like the magic of the dreamtime/songlines; is there a song of wind? a song of storms? a song of spring, summer etc.? We know the COTF sing the song of earth. I'm reminded of Tyrion seeing the great storm/hurricane heading toward the ship. He calls it the bar sinister and tells Penny that a big bastard is sneaking up behind him. Hello Bloodraven. Sound and songs have a magical component. Melisandre says her voice and words are becoming more powerful at the Wall. Perhaps the Wall acts like an amplifier. Jon describes Mel's voice as sing-song and MMD tries to protect herself from burning through some kind of song. Doesn't she also tell Dany that she knows all the birthing songs? Then there are the horns - Dragon Binder and the Horn of Winter. Drink from a cup of ice, drink from a cup of fire. If no living man can sound Dragonbinder and live; is the same true of the Horn of Winter, should it be repaired? Is this how Coldhands was made?

I'm leaning towards light over dark, love over hate and life over death.

Sure! I'll get a pencil, lick the end (professionally) and draw some blanks. I wanted to come back to something you touched on in an earlier post about Mirri Maaz Durr. Mountains blowing in the wind like leaves.... - the sun rising in the west and setting in the east: the blood moon eclipse that Tyrion describes as the sunrise - an ominous portent if I ever saw one - the seas drying up and turning red: the Dothraki sea in the fall - mountains blowing in the wind like leaves: not actual mountains but the khals themselves are the mountains - sons of the Mother of Mountains in Vaes Dothrak, metaphorically speaking. I think we've seen the first two, but have yet to see what blowing in the wind means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowin'_in_the_Wind#:~:text=According to Alan Lomax's,has always been a spiritual.

This is exactly why I know nothing about anything. It would be a good reason for Lyanna to run in the first place and it could explain Brandon's reaction the Rhaegar crowning Lyanna QoLaB. It's a very jealous reaction. Again, I can't dismiss Wolfmaid's contention that Robert is Jon's father. Although GRRM has gone to some length to have him dismissed. I can't believe that Robert only produced children with black hair and blue eyes. Out of 16 bastards, at least one of them would be against type. This would also be a good reason to hide Jon from Robert. Ned's thoughts at Robert's deathbed have the feel of a confessional. "I lied to you, I hid the truth from you, I let them kill you." That has a lot of buried anger attached to it. Also "yes, I will take care of all your bastards." If Rhaegar knew something about the song of ice and fire and that involved a pact between Aegon I and the Starks; he may have had a reason to make sure that Lyanna did not fall into Aerys' hands. If he did have her at the tower of joy, I doubt he could have stopped Aerys from taking her. I prefer to think Rhaegar would have done the right thing.