Jace, Extat

Nothing was done for Palestinians on Oct. 7th except provocation of war and tragedy.

They cheered not m for freedom, but for dead jews.

2 minutes ago, Darryk said:

Israel is a lot more sacred to Jews than Constantinople is to Hellenes.

 

Not in my HoI4 campaigns it's not! The Rome of the East will rise again!

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Fascinating. So war means do whatever the fuck you want? 

 

War means destroying the enemy's capacity to coordinate and maintain combatants in the field. That is what Israel wants to do, and they only wanted it after Hamas attacked first. 

There has been a popular drift of the word "indiscriminate" by many in these threads.

Indiscriminate is what the allies did in WW2. Dropping bombs by the thousands from high altitude and not caring what they hit. These kinds of attacks produced casualties as high as 120,000 or 180,000 in a single day, in Germany and Japan. 

It's just incorrect to lay that charge on Israel in Gaza. 

7 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

There is death here and now. That this wanton destruction won't lead to stability and peace may be speculative, but that this destruction and death is illegal and immoral is not. 

I'm no legal expert, so I'll leave it to the U.N. to bark up that tree as soon as they're done rescuing a cat that's up a different tree. As for immorality, well. Agree to disagree, I suppose. 

What would you have them do? It is a war. 

Hamas is responsible for starting the war, for using aid money to build infrastructure and weapons of terror and abusing their own people. Hamas has to go, just like the Nazis had to go. 

Your repeated assertions that there will be nothing but more terror in the future is speculative. There is terror and war now.

You're dancing around Oct. 7th, acting like the Israelis are responding to rhetoric instead of deadly and deliberate attack. 

C'mon, now!

"Wants to do to Israelis."

Come on...

29 minutes ago, Zorral said:

For two entire days, Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, I managed to wall myself off from everything except friends, family, food, literature, history and music.  We were all on the same page.  Of course then, this morning, I felt guilty for not paying attention, ya know?

But I want to do this again for New Year's weekend.

You should never feel bad for enjoying family and the good things in your life. If it makes you happy to step back from the bustle and buzz of ongoing events that's something to appreciate, not be guilty over. 

Just my opinion. 

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But it wasn't just violence, a lot of money went into rebuilding afterwards. To make sure people would not have reason to find fascism/extremism attractive again. Unlike in WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles, which helped create conditions where fascism/extremism was more attractive to the people.

Gaza gets billions in aid every year from the U.N. with Hamas gone and unable to steal all that money the area can be rebuilt. 

6 hours ago, Rippounet said:

There's a fun little game to play here. See:

I don't want to watch allies bomb cities. I don't want to watch anybody do that. But if violence is the game then China is going to win. It's up to the Taiwanese to produce leadership that can start to get a handle on the reactionary parts of the population.

...

 

This is a very well written piece of wrong. 

Hamas attacked first. They decided the terms of the exchange. 

I appreciate your desire for non-violent resolutions to crises but it's just not how the world operates. There is no common ground to find with Hamas, it's a death cult and a jihadist organization. They must be dealt with. 

You use a superb narrative trick with the repetitive reframing of my statement, but the other conditions don't apply. Hamas isn't in those countries, the Ukrainians never attacked Russia first. The Uyghurs didn't produce a terrorist statelet out of U.N. aid and Iranian funding. South Korea and Taiwan do not send marauders into China or North Korea searching for innocents to slaughter. 

My argument is not that weak states or minorities should be bullied by stronger states without recourse. We stand with Ukraine against Russia, even though they're going to lose. Because Russia attacked first. 

Again, I enjoy your argument for a moral and ideal world response to horror and tragedy, but at the end of the day you are more or less arguing that a great power play impotent when confronted by war and terror. That's just not possible, I'm afraid, and while you are entitled to your opinion I think it's wrong. And I don't think that a majority of people would support whatever responsive policies would emerge from your worldview when a real crisis hits. 

But that's okay, baby 

Like, I'm glad that there are people in the Palestinians' camp. They're going to need that support after the war with donations and volunteers and political support in the west. Rebuilding Gaza, without Hamas and with a responsible government that shares your dedication for peace and moral intercourse will be the work of decades. It's not a small task and deserves big support. 

We disagree here, now, because today is a time of war. But I think you're a good dude. I don't have beef with anybody on this forum because of their opinions and I think it's important to talk about this stuff. 

I say give it to McCaffery. He has 21 TDs!!!

Israel has to destroy Hamas, for security purposes. 

You're not wrong, they are creating problems of tomorrow but the fact is that Hamas had to go today and this is what it takes. They have a murderous statelet of terrorists to fight right now. 

48 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have serious doubts that bombing people into submission is a very effective strategy to achieve peace and security for all involved. Palestinians and Israelis have been inflicting horrors on one another for decades, and yet here we are today. 
 

Much the opposite, in fact. As long as this type of tactic is the go-to response leaders on both sides employ, people on both sides will continue to die and suffer while their leaders remain safe and continue to foment more hate and violence in those they are supposed to protect. 

I pretty much agree outright with this, and it's why I get a little freaked out when I see people explaining away Hamas' actions as inevitable or, God help me, liberatory.

I don't want to watch allies bomb cities. I don't want to watch anybody do that. But if violence is the game then Israel is going to win. It's up to the Palestinians to produce leadership that can start to get a handle on the reactionary parts of the population. Not easy to do, especially when and after massive infrastructure damage and loss of life from war is affecting your people.

But if this doesn't happen then, as you say, the cycle is inevitable and Israel has no choice but to seek the threshold of violence that guarantees the state's security. 

48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm not sure that it is helpful to lump all Palestinians into a category like this, especially for the purpose of saying they chose violence. I don't think the thousands of Palestinian children chose violence. Nor do I really think one can make the argument that the whole adult population of Gaza 'chose' this violence when there has been no election in Gaza since 2006, where less than half the electorate voted for Hamas. Unless one believes that the failure of the average Gazan to overthrow Hamas entitles Israel to bomb them.

 

Well, the question of how much responsibility a particular group of people have for the actions of their rulers or governments, even in a despotic or terroristic system, is an interesting one but not the point of this thread. (The answer is not "none", by the way)

But I think I covered this with my response above. At some point the Palestinian people either produce leadership that leads towards peace, or we do what we've been doing.

As to the children? Dude it's horrible.  Not just that those kids are living through this, but that they'll have to live through the aftermath and have to be the ones who will choose that long illusive peace. That is a horrible draw. But it has happened before and the sooner it happens for the Palestinians the better for all.

48 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

.

To the best of my knowledge, there has not been a time when only the application of violence removed violence from another society, unless you count totally destroying said society. There also needs to be rebuilding for the change to stick.

Germany and Japan in 1945 up to the present day come to mind.

Okay. 

________________________________

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

Whatever Hamas gets replaced with is going to be built atop these horrors and humiliations. And whatever that group does, it will be on the hands of this Israeli government. 

 

 

What an awful and patronizing way to dilute the agency of the people you're claiming to champion. Because the people of Gaza couldn't possibly learn from war and decide to move as a community, if not a government, towards peace. Couldn't possibly!

It's an ugly fact, but you can beat the violence out of a society. It's been done before. 

Hamas broke the cease-fire, and Israel's return serve is going to break Hamas. If the Palestinians want to keep choosing violence then they will keep getting bombed. It's that simple.

Jesus, this is becoming a body bag game

DangeRuss!

I would trade every player on the Colts for Mike Tomlin. You can build talent, coaches are rarer than gold.

7 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Good question. The only way id agree to debate Trump would be if his micrphone was muted during any responses.  He wont refrain from interrupting or follow any etiquette.

Honestly im certain I couldnt sit through watching a debate with him in it, its too sickening at this point.

The republic lies drunken on the lip of an abyss.

Merry Christmas. 

16 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Ideally that would be enough, but I think there needs to be an element of goading to bring out the maximum Trump manbaby image.

For that he has to have lost his temper and the tantrums can begin. Perhaps when manbaby is in full tantrum mode theres room to position as the only adult choice, so theres that as viable option hopefully.

Does Trump even debate Biden at this point? Does he have to?

Convert to Republicanism, repent later when King Trump dies and we are liberated from the tyranny of Ivanka by a Canadian-Turkish coalition in about 13 or 14 years. Sure, they never would have invaded a MALE tyrant, but we'll confront the sexism of our liberation and emerge stronger as a proletariat.

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I hear WRAP works great on horses.

Now that's a movie I haven't seen in a long time! I miss the days of practical effects. 

Meanwhile, as to grievances... I got nothin', really. More excited for Christmas than I've been since I was a kid. 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

All I want for Festivus is to capture @A Horse Named Stranger in a Master Ball so I can make him fight @Jace, Extat

There can be only one! 
 

I've been living in a Rocky montage just getting ready for the day. Wait 'till I use my LEER ability on him!

1 minute ago, KingAerys_II said:

....

Yeah, well we don't read so good neither! 

The deaths of non-combatants is not a means to Israel, it is an unfortunate byproduct of modern weapons of war in dense population centers. 

You've lost or ignored the ability to see the difference between organized barbarism and collateral damage.

Grim, for God's sake listen to yourself! You are literally arguing that ends justify means, and if not nobody will remember anyway. Dude, that's your argument! The classic argument of those who engage in political violence. 

2 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

 

The problem is not Hamas whether is a Terrorist or Liberation organization, 

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctor-who-treated-freed-hamas-hostages-describes-physical-sexual-and-psychological-abuse/

Dawg... 

I mean, really just 

But there it is, y'know? There. 

It.  

Is. 

And that's how liberals wrapped all the way around the political spectrosphere to emerge making defiant speeches on behalf of the dignity and defensibility of Hamas. 

Splendid. 

The kids aren't all right. 

33 minutes ago, Relic said:

So unless you're talking about strictly nuclear powers or countries that have access to 5th generation fighter jets and subs, i repeat, what the fuck are you talking about?

 

 As a matter of fact I am. You're not a real military if you don't have an airforce and guided missiles. And no, I don't mean leftover Chinese and Russian surplus from the eighties. Ask Saddam how helpful the 4th largest military in the world is if you don't have modern doctrines and equipment. 

22 hours ago, Relic said:

He names one, as you asked, and that's your response?

Yeah. Sorry, my bad. Because Nigeria has modern military capabilities... 

The sad fact is that if Hamas had access to the kinds of weapons Israel has there would be no Israel. Meanwhile Israel will call phones for days, drop thousands of leaflets, to clear out buildings before striking on Hamas strongholds. Acts of brazen murder or criminality is the exception to Israeli conduct, and the point of Hamas.