[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Ran]

GRRM has very good reasons for why the GRRMarillion is not something he's contemplating for release any time soon. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. :)

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

After reading this tale, I must say I'm surprised/disappointed more wasn't mentioned about Ser Cole in the story a man dubbed the Kingmaker and the way Jaime talks of him being a lil bit hero and villain should have been more noteworthy than he was his biggest contribution was silting an old man's throat. I'm surprised history remembers him at all compared to the real Kingmaker (Richard Neville) this guy's deeds are less than remarkable.

Ran I know you mentioned we'd get more detail on the twins battle in the Worldbook but I was wondering if you could shed some light on which part of the war was it they died together?

I want more on Daemon Targaryen’s early life. So many Targ badasses during this time period, and he was the most awesome to me. I sorry this guy did not end up ruling alongside Rhaenrya.

I would love to hear about how he made those enemies in Essos and his days warring in the Stepstones. Its guys like this that make house Targaryen the best thing to every happen to Westeros, and one of the best things to happen in fantasy literature.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Solid points but did we somehow go past the idea that capturing the princes was better than killing them? They could've even had vengeance and a hostage... kill one keep the other.

Perhaps there's a reason this wouldn't work, but I'm not seeing it. If these two could get through the secret passages and out again, surely they could carry a six and/or two year old. It wouldn't be hard to get them out of the city, I think.

Yeah, I guess Daemon had his reasons for not kidnapping the other kid. Perhaps he feared that taking both of the beloved Helaena's sons would give Rhaenyra a bad name amongst the small folk of KL?

Edit: Another thing that I've noticed is that Alicent is worried the Vale will side with Rhaenyra because the Vale is ruled by a woman. Yet not a word is spoken about Rhaenyra's Arryn mother, who had Targaryen blood in her veins. Would this indicate that the Targaryen woman who married a male Arryn wasn't Rhaenyra's grandmother, but possibly her great-grandmother or her great-greatgrandmother?

[PrimeRhaegar]

I want more on Daemon Targaryen’s early life. So many Targ badasses during this time period, and he was the most awesome to me. I sorry this guy did not end up ruling alongside Rhaenrya.

I would love to hear about how he made those enemies in Essos and his days warring in the Stepstones. Its guys like this that make house Targaryen the best thing to every happen to Westeros, and one of the best things to happen in fantasy literature.

amen brother i keep telling people that.

[History of Westeros]

On Daemon's possible adoption/connection to the Old Gods, I'm thinking a guy who has respect for such wouldn't cut up a Heart Tree. This is the rough equivalent of converting to the Seven and proceeding to cut marks into a statue of the Stranger.

Also on the subject of that Heart Tree, perhaps the wounds bleed afresh every spring because of something to do with the properties of Valyrian Steel("dragonsteel"?). These slashes were made by Dark Sister after all.

The simpler answer is probably that the cuts are extremely deep because Valyrian steel is so sharp, not because weirwoods are extra sensitive to the stuff. But it does seem a bit strange that those wounds didn't heal.

[Red Raven]

I just thought the trees bleeding every year was a folktale.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The whole Blood and Cheese thing seems rather logical, the longer I think about it.

Killing Aegon would have been too difficult. He was the King, and thus had Kingsguards all around him the entire time. There was no way Blood and Cheese could have gotten to him

In addition to that, killing Aegon would have brought the Greens in a position where the decision they would have had to make could have had a dangerous outcome for the Blacks. The Greens would have had to choose between 19 year old Aemond and 6 year old Jaehaerys. Either Aemond would have gained a lot of power as Jaehaerys' most likely regent, or he would have gained even more power by becomming King.

Killing Aemond would have been difficult, for he was almost constantly on the move with Vhagar by his side.

Killing little Jaehaerys was the perfect set, although incredibly cruel. It would keep Aemond away from gaining too much power, while letting Aegon, Alicent and Helaena suffer. And possibly Otto too, since it was his great-grandchild. Let's face it, Aemond doesn't seem like the type who would get too upset about the death of a relative. He even stayed incredibly calm when Aegon was severly injured. Although most likely engaged, Daemon would (1) either not know about that yet, or (2) know that Aemond wouldn't care about that girl. We don't know when Alys Rivers came into view, but since Aemond hadn't raided the Riverlands yet, I doubt he had met her already. There was no personal way to get back at Aemond for killing Lucerys. Killing Jaehaerys was the closest Daemon could get without practically handing Aemond the crown. Plus, he might have hoped that the death of his heir would make Aegon so angry that he'd strip Aemond of his power or something like that.

With Cheese having been as familiar with the secret passages of the Red Keep as Varys, why not send in a strike team of the best killers available (50 or so) and eliminate as much of the Green leadership as possible? Assuming the hour is right, Aegon may have had at most two King’s Guard with him. It seems to me, this could have ended the war in one fell swoop.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I read this tonight. Any idea what happened to Nettles and the few dragons that escaped? Are they still hiding somewhere?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

With Cheese having been as familiar with the secret passages of the Red Keep as Varys, why not send in a strike team of the best killers available (50 or so) and eliminate as much of the Green leadership as possible? Assuming the hour is right, Aegon may have had at most two Kings Guard with him. It seems to me, this could have ended the war in one fell swoop.

That wouldn't have felt like a true victory, I think. It's true they could have done this, but it wouldn't have inspired loyalty towards Rhaenyra amongst the lords and ladies in Westeros, I think.

[History of Westeros]

That wouldn't have felt like a true victory, I think. It's true they could have done this, but it wouldn't have inspired loyalty towards Rhaenyra amongst the lords and ladies in Westeros, I think.

That's a very good point, and it applies to the hostage thing as well. Winning the war like this would be dishonorable, as weird as it sounds when we're talking about child murder. But that's smaller scale and the whole episode did end up hurting them in the eyes of the commons.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Thanks for this list!

• Silverwing (Alysanne, Ulf the White)
  
• Cannibal: Black as coal.
  
• Sheepstealer (Netty): Mud brown.
  

So these are the three dragons that may still be alive. Ulf, the lst rider of Silverwing is dead. Cannibal didn't have a rider, and Sheepstealer was last seen with Nettles. I think it's rather interesting that there are 3 dragons alive at the end of this novella.

The most interesting thing to me is that only Targaryens can ride dragons. And what's even more interesting is that there are A LOT of people out there with Targaryen blood. I bet some characters from the books are seeds.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That's a very good point, and it applies to the hostage thing as well. Winning the war like this would be dishonorable, as weird as it sounds when we're talking about child murder. But that's smaller scale and the whole episode did end up hurting them in the eyes of the commons.

Exactly. Daemon doesn't strike me as the person who would want to win a fight like this war by using secret passages and such, but he does strike me as the kind of person who would use such a move to his advantage.

Thanks for this list!

• Silverwing (Alysanne, Ulf the White)

Cannibal: Black as coal.

Sheepstealer (Netty): Mud brown.

So these are the three dragons that may still be alive. Ulf, the lst rider of Silverwing is dead. Cannibal didn't have a rider, and Sheepstealer was last seen with Nettles. I think it's rather interesting that there are 3 dragons alive at the end of this novella.

The most interesting thing to me is that only Targaryens can ride dragons. And what's even more interesting is that there are A LOT of people out there with Targaryen blood. I bet some characters from the books are seeds.

There is another dragon, who hasn't been named, according to Ran. So there's four dragons who survived the Dance!

[Mark Antony]

Sorry if this has already been answered/discussed but 68 pages damn.

But did Dalton Greyjoy just not fight? Or was he just not mentioned after the beginning for other reasons like editing

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sorry if this has already been answered/discussed but 68 pages damn.

But did Dalton Greyjoy just not fight? Or was he just not mentioned after the beginning for other reasons like editing

He isn't mentioned after they ask him to become the Master of Ships. Most likely, it's because of editing, I guess.

[Moondancer]

Is there a possibility that Rhaena's had one of her eggs hatched in the meantime? Is this 4th dragon a grown beast?

GRRM-arillion is the very best hope people can have for anything like a novella about Robert's Rebellion, or Rhaegar and Lyanna, or the Tower of Joy.

I thought that GRRM said by the time he finishes ADoS we will have known everything there is to be known (that is, relevant to the overarching story, I presume)? Or have I misunderstood your post?

[Ran]

Fairly sure George has not said that, as he's noted many times previously that he doesn't really believe in stories that end up with everything tied up in a neat little bow. You will surely know, broadly, the important details (read: relevant to the present story) about the past. But as we know, there's always little details that add depth and color.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I read this tonight. Any idea what happened to Nettles and the few dragons that escaped? Are they still hiding somewhere?

Nettles flew east from Mpool on Sheepstealer. A gold dragon says she was carrying Daemon's child. A silver star says she was BBP's great great grandmother. Another one says Tyrion will connect the dots and BBP will be riding Viserion.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

That wouldn't have felt like a true victory, I think. It's true they could have done this, but it wouldn't have inspired loyalty towards Rhaenyra amongst the lords and ladies in Westeros, I think.

That's a very good point, and it applies to the hostage thing as well. Winning the war like this would be dishonorable, as weird as it sounds when we're talking about child murder. But that's smaller scale and the whole episode did end up hurting them in the eyes of the commons.

Well, Rhaenyra already had the Crownlands, North, Vale, Riverlands, and at least half the Vale. Peace would need to be made with the Lannisters (who oddly continue to suck at warfare) and the Baratheons. Freeing Ser Tyland and removing the Green leadership would likely placate the Lannisters. Marrying one or two of Lord Baratheon’s daughters would have likely brought the Stormlands back into the fold.

The Hightowers would likely continue to be hostile, but alone they are not enough. The smallfolk already considered Rhaenyra the true queen and not harming any kids would have helped. Sparing the realm the devastation of civil war is the most honorable victory possible.

I know doing things this way would not have given us much of a story, but it seems more logical and something I would do.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Sorry if this has already been answered/discussed but 68 pages damn.

But did Dalton Greyjoy just not fight? Or was he just not mentioned after the beginning for other reasons like editing

It is said that the majority of the battles took place on sea. The only sea battle that we hear about is the Battle of the Gullet, but I suspect there were more.

The Redwynes were staunch for Aegon, alongside the Hightowers, as were the Lannisters. Assuming the Redwynes were anywhere near the sea power they are in present-day Westeros, and assuming the Lannisters and Hightowers have force at sea, it stands to reason that the Greyjoys were simply pinned in and unable to come to the aid of Rhaenyra.

Alternatively, Dalton was likely aware of what he faced and decided to stay neutral. He was only sixteen at the time, so it stands to reason his grip on the Iron Isles may not have been as secure.

[Maia]

Exactly. Daemon doesn't strike me as the person who would want to win a fight like this war by using secret passages and such, but he does strike me as the kind of person who would use such a move to his advantage.

Well, KL was taken via a coup with the help of City Watch turning. So, I don't see why Daemon would have been above coordinating this with a commando raid through the secret passages of the Red Keep, eliminating or capturing enemy leadership before it could organize resistance or escape? He didn't seem stupidly chivalric to me.

IMHO, the whole Blood and Cheese thing was a massive wasted opportunity which resulted in PR backlash to boot.

They were lucky that Helaena went into inward-directed madness over this, rather than in Richard Karstark-style bout of vengeful crazy or into rational retribution-mode.

Of course dragons are a major complicating factor in attempting to deal with such a succession struggle relatively mercyfully. From what we have seen, it is difficult to know if the dragons would have been motivated to defend and rescue their riders.

Drogon certainly was on a couple of occasions, but maybe Dany's bond with him is stronger than normal. But the danger of prisoners escaping and making it to their dragons to cause havoc would have always been present either way.

Which is why Alicent shouldn't have started her bid for the crown in the first place and Viserys should have never allowed his Hightower kids to bond with dragons, if he wanted for Rhaenyra and her branch to inherit.

BTW, isn't it interesting that the Gold Cloaks were still Gold Cloaks under Targaryens? I always thought that they used to be called something else and dressed differently before the regime change, given that they wear Baratheon colors - _black_ armor, _gold_ cloaks. Did Orys Baratheon found them, perhaps, and their uniform was intended to honor him?