[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Lion of the West]

Current knightly House Swyft could be a junior branch of the lordly Swyfts of old.

Could also be that the Swyfts made some bad decision in the past, like supporting the Blackfyres, and that brought them down to their current status.

[Lord Varys]

Stallion,

well, my point was the following:

Lord Ormund Hightower is attacked from two sides while he is still in his lands. Rowan, Tarly, Costayne, Beesbury etc attack him with two armies while he is still at the banks of the Honeywine. Whatever host he has back then has to be made up mostly by Hightower men (i.e. men sworn directly to Oldtown or Oldtown's vassals).

Since Beesbury and Costayne's army is one of the two armies attacking him (the Rowan-and-Tarly-host cannot include any Hightower men since their lands are not exactly near Oldtown) we have to assume that their men were supposed to be Hightower men but weren't because they declared for Queen Rhaenyra.

After Lord Ormund has won this battle he apparently puts his bannermen back into place and forces their levies to fight for him now (but not the remnants of the Rowan-and-Tarly-army - they retreat). Later on - on the march to KL - he and Daeron/Tessarion force all the other Reach lords through whose lands they are coming to join their army. It's implied that there are some Blacks on their way who dare not oppose them due to Tessarion's presence and then decide that it's better to live and fight alongside Lord Ormund's host.

That's how and why Lord Ormund has such a huge host when he reaches Tumbleton. It's not made up of Hightower levies, it represents a good portion of the strength of the whole Reach.

[Gonzalo]

The same for Vickon Greyjoy. Is he now Dalton Greyjoy? Both were born in 113AC.

VIckon was already Lord Greyjoy in 0 AC

[Hardstone]

VIckon was already Lord Greyjoy in 0 AC

I'm referencing the Vickon Greyjoy from BoD, not the first Lord of the Iron Isles.

[PrimeRhaegar]

You can probably skip the part about charging Lannister spears five times, because if we're down to that level we might as well say that they can urinate without help, tie their own shoes and chew their own food.

Everyone always beats the hell out of the Westermen. It would only be noteworthy if they didn't.

And I might add that the dazzling Northmen took quite some casulties in the process of their "heroics".

my word so true 300 years and it seems the lannister are always getting their asses kicked in a unified westeros.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Stallion,

well, my point was the following:

Lord Ormund Hightower is attacked from two sides while he is still in his lands. Rowan, Tarly, Costayne, Beesbury etc attack him with two armies while he is still at the banks of the Honeywine. Whatever host he has back then has to be made up mostly by Hightower men (i.e. men sworn directly to Oldtown or Oldtown's vassals).

Since Beesbury and Costayne's army is one of the two armies attacking him (the Rowan-and-Tarly-host cannot include any Hightower men since their lands are not exactly near Oldtown) we have to assume that their men were supposed to be Hightower men but weren't because they declared for Queen Rhaenyra.

After Lord Ormund has won this battle he apparently puts his bannermen back into place and forces their levies to fight for him now (but not the remnants of the Rowan-and-Tarly-army - they retreat). Later on - on the march to KL - he and Daeron/Tessarion force all the other Reach lords through whose lands they are coming to join their army. It's implied that there are some Blacks on their way who dare not oppose them due to Tessarion's presence and then decide that it's better to live and fight alongside Lord Ormund's host.

That's how and why Lord Ormund has such a huge host when he reaches Tumbleton. It's not made up of Hightower levies, it represents a good portion of the strength of the whole Reach.

I took it that your analysis was constructed to dispute the actual power of an extremely powerful house. I disagreed with this premise, as the power of house Hightower rivals that of any lord paramount. By all rights they should have ruled the reach after house Gardner was extinguished. My second point of contention were in regard to the actual numbers of the Lord Ormund’s host.

The Hightwowers have five principal bannerman, in addition to their own levies: Beesbury, Costayne, Cuy, Mullendore, and Bulwer. It is not in dispute that Beesbury, Costayne, and Mullendore defected to Rhaenyra, as they combined to attack the Hightower host from the rear and block any retreat once the trap was sprung. I don’t think its that disputable that Lord Ormund marched from Oldtown with a huge host, not including his bannerman, as the reading says so, and Oldtown itself and its environs are likely home to a huge population, given its location.

My assumption is that Lord Ormund tarried along the Honeywine awaiting his bannerman, not knowing of their treachery. Of course we know that Daeron flew in and saved the day, forcing the two rival armies to retreat and suffer great losses in the process. There is no indication of Lord Ormund assimilating Beesbury, Costayne, or Mullendore. From the reading, Lord Ormund does not start adding forces until he hits the Mander, which is well away from his own lands.

Aside from the Tyrells (appears to neutral), Rowans (retreated), Oakhearts (not mentioned), Florents (not mentioned), and Tarlys (retreated), any other force attempting to impede Lord Ormund would be minimal (3 to 4,000 men) at best. This assumption is backed up by the consistently low troop numbers we have seen during this time period.

By the time Lord Ormund’s host reaches the first battle of the Tubbleton, I agree that it contains various other houses not sword to the Hightower, but I stand by my argument that the vast majority of said host is made up of Hightower levies.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You can probably skip the part about charging Lannister spears five times, because if we're down to that level we might as well say that they can urinate without help, tie their own shoes and chew their own food.

Try not to sound like such a Lannister loyalists. I think leading the vanguard with only 2,000 men and charging a shield wall five times is quite an admirable feat. Not calling it superhuman, but it is quite impressive.

[Lion of the West]

Try not to sound like such a Lannister loyalists. I think leading the vanguard with only 2,000 men and charging a shield wall five times is quite an admirable feat. Not calling it superhuman, but it is quite impressive.

Have you seen my avatar? Does the name Gurkhal say you something? because what I used to call myself before my account was lost with the password incident.

It would've been an impressive thing if not for the fact that the Lannisters and Westermen always lose, even when their own side wins, every war they take part in. Had it been Tully, or Hightower or Baratheon spears I wouldn't have said anything but when put into context with the Lannister loser-skillz it isn't very impressive. But you are of course entitled to your own views.

my word so true 300 years and it seems the lannister are always getting their asses kicked in a unified westeros.

Indeed. And to add a real freaking dose of injury to the wound we have to my knowledge one, exactly one freaking example of Lannisters in war before Aegon...and that's a guy with a Valyrian steel sword getting killed by a guy with a fucking knife! You heard me! A Lannister with a Valyrian steel sword still loose against a guy with a KNIFE!

Their words should be "Kick my ass!"

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

One more thing. What was the relationship between Harwin Strong and Larys Strong? If Rhaenyra'a kids were Harwin's, shouldn't he have supported them and ended the war quickly?

I mentioned this as well many pages ago. Either Larys obviously doesn't believe the rumours, or the rumours about Rhaenyra and Harwin created an unfavourable situation for House Strong which caused Larys to hate Rhaenyra and her sons enough to want to see them death.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Have you seen my avatar? Does the name Gurkhal say you something? because what I used to call myself before my account was lost with the password incident.

It would've been an impressive thing if not for the fact that the Lannisters and Westermen always lose, even when their own side wins, every war they take part in. Had it been Tully, or Hightower or Baratheon spears I wouldn't have said anything but when put into context with the Lannister loser-skillz it isn't very impressive. But you are of course entitled to your own views.

Yes, I’ve seen your avatar and understand your plight. Buck up!!! You’ll always have Castamere. And Jaime did smash the very inept Edmure Tully under the walls of Riverrun. Oh, and lets not forget Tywin and Mace Tyrell taking Stannis in the rear at King’s Lading. And I must mention Tywin’s victory over Roose Bolton. Who cares if it was a fake attack by the Northmen and that Roose Bolton was purposely sabotaging rival houses.

So, there. You have some.....wins to celebrate.

[PrimeRhaegar]

Have you seen my avatar? Does the name Gurkhal say you something? because what I used to call myself before my account was lost with the password incident.

It would've been an impressive thing if not for the fact that the Lannisters and Westermen always lose, even when their own side wins, every war they take part in. Had it been Tully, or Hightower or Baratheon spears I wouldn't have said anything but when put into context with the Lannister loser-skillz it isn't very impressive. But you are of course entitled to your own views.

Indeed. And to add a real freaking dose of injury to the wound we have to my knowledge one, exactly one freaking example of Lannisters in war before Aegon...and that's a guy with a Valyrian steel sword getting killed by a guy with a fucking knife! You heard me! A Lannister with a Valyrian steel sword still loose against a guy with a KNIFE!

Their words should be "Kick my ass!"

LOLOL thats so true i never understood that that guy must have been a poor ass swordsman. Oh well atleast they have more victories in the current story line man. Hell at least they can say they survived the field of fire too.

[History of Westeros]

The same for Vickon Greyjoy. Is he now Dalton Greyjoy? Both were born in 113AC.

That was my guess as well, since that Vickon is the exact age Dalton would be, on the exact same year during the same time period. Probably a safe assumption.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I definitely lean toward Nettles having Targ blood

If only Targaryens can ride dragons, I think we can say with certainty that Nettles, Hugh and Ulf are seeds.

[History of Westeros]

Some new thoughts on Blood & Cheese, and why Daemon didn't do more with the opportunity.

We must not forget that Daemon didn't have access to the tunnels, the "pale stranger" did. It's safe to assume this mysterious person is not a mere tool (meaning he likely has his own ambitions, agendas and concerns).

With that in mind, it's not hard to imagine that Daemon wanted to make greater use of the tunnels, or capture rather than kill the princelings. But perhaps the Pale Stranger claimed such was not possible (for his own reasons) despite it being so. Like Littlefinger perhaps he saw more benefit to the chaos of a long war as opposed to a short one.

Basically, we mustn't forget that Daemon wasn't directing this operation himself. He "reached out" to this guy, is what the text says. Daemon most likely had no idea who Blood and Cheese were.

[RumHam]

If only Targaryens can ride dragons, I think we can say with certainty that Nettles, Hugh and Ulf are seeds.

That's still a pretty big "if."

[Lost Melnibonean]

Anybody else think patchface when they read what the crazed one-handed prophet called the Shephard had to say?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Some new thoughts on Blood & Cheese, and why Daemon didn't do more with the opportunity.

We must not forget that Daemon didn't have access to the tunnels, the "pale stranger" did. It's safe to assume this mysterious person is not a mere tool (meaning he likely has his own ambitions, agendas and concerns).

With that in mind, it's not hard to imagine that Daemon wanted to make greater use of the tunnels, or capture rather than kill the princelings. But perhaps the Pale Stranger claimed such was not possible (for his own reasons) despite it being so. Like Littlefinger perhaps he saw more benefit to the chaos of a long war as opposed to a short one.

Basically, we mustn't forget that Daemon wasn't directing this operation himself. He "reached out" to this guy, is what the text says. Daemon most likely had no idea who Blood and Cheese were.

What would lead you to believe that the “pale stranger” was more than he appeared, a covert operative that could be set to any task? I found nothing to suggest he had Varys/Littlefinger style ambitions.

It would also seem that a grateful Daemon on the throne would hasten any plans/ambitions that the PS would have had.

[CosimaistheHottest]

That's still a pretty big "if."

I agree. It is quite possible GRRM put Nettles in the novella to refute the belief that only people with Targaryen blood can be dragonriders, but he can't come out and say it.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Anybody else think patchface when they read what the crazed one-handed prophet called the Shephard had to say?

Actually no, but the Shephard did make me think about the guy in aCoK who called Tyrion a twisted little monkey demon...

[Lost Melnibonean]

Actually no, but the Shephard did make me think about the guy in aCoK who called Tyrion a twisted little monkey demon...

The pattern of the Shepherd's speech is what made me think of Patchface. Anybody else or am I seeing stuff thst ain't there?