Small Questions v 10021

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Yes this one. The place in TMK is not the Inn at the Crossroads. The Inn in TMK is on a lake not a river. Both spots might be south of the Gods Eye, no?

I'm pretty sure it's the same Inn: it used to be built over the water, it used to be owned by Long Jon Heddle who was no doubt an ancestor of Black Tom Heddle who was a sworn sword at Whitewalls in TMK, there used to be a ferry that provided transport specifically to whitewalls, and Septon Meribald explains the change in the geography:

The Inn at the Crossroads is now north of the Trident, since the river moved. Before the river moved, the inn was built out over it.

In TMK, Dunk and Egg had just come from Stoney Sept, and they were definitely by a lake, not a river. The inn mentioned is built out over the lake on pilings. The only lake large enough to need a ferry to cross is the God's Eye. Dunk and Egg must have camped on the west bank of the God's Eye; Whitewalls must be on the eastern side, off the lake a ways.

Jaime was traveling from Harrenhall to KL by back roads, so he must have been on the east side of the lake, about 15-20 miles from Harrenhall.

These are three separate places.

In the village with the holdfast where Lorch attacked Yoren's group, Arya described an inn built out over the lake on pilings. Yoren couldn't cross the river that empties from the God's Eye, so they had to be on the east bank of the lake, near the southern end. Building an inn partially over water just seems to be a popular architectural style.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Do armies travel by roads, or do they simply cross through forrests and meadows and such? Is this ever mentioned? For example, if Robb wanted to arrive somewhere faster than Tywin expected, could he?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Do armies travel by roads, or do they simply cross through forrests and meadows and such? Is this ever mentioned? For example, if Robb wanted to arrive somewhere faster than Tywin expected, could he?

Yes, but it depends on your army. It will hard to get your cavalry through dense forest, while infantry can go through easily. Same goes on plain terrain, the cavalry will be quicker than infantry.

He can but he needs to harry his forces and needs to take a path that helps both infantry and cavalry contingent. The most prefered path will be through forest, it might slow his cavalry but his infantry will take the first hit of the oncoming wave of enemies, and then his cavalry charges later.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Do armies travel by roads, or do they simply cross through forrests and meadows and such? Is this ever mentioned? For example, if Robb wanted to arrive somewhere faster than Tywin expected, could he?

I cant be 100% sure, but I think mainly by roads. Its quicker and easier because the terrain is better to walk on compared to say blundering through the woods. It also reduces the chance of wandering of course somewhat, or blundering into natural barriers (hills, swamps etc). Jamie for definite takes his force by the Kingsroad when going to Harrenhal. I think Roose also leads the Northern foot along a road to attack Tywin in Game of Thrones? I suppose in desperate situations an army could marchcross country, but its risjy as you have a chance of getting lost or bogged down by nature.

(I may add that in Essos, armies likely march along the Valyrian roads where possible, for obvious reasons)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Do armies travel by roads, or do they simply cross through forrests and meadows and such? Is this ever mentioned? For example, if Robb wanted to arrive somewhere faster than Tywin expected, could he?

If you are leaving your base for more than a few days, you need some supplies. Wagons will need to travel by road or track. Pack animals would be more versatile. Robb undoubtedly traveled on a road of some sort when moving between the Twins and Riverrun. (The Frey's bridge would be all but useless if there wasn't a road to Riverrun.) The maps only show the major roads (perhaps built and maintained with Crown money).

Robb outmaneuvered Tywin around Riverrun because Tywin miscalculated Walder Frey's willingness to get involved, and Robb/Catelyn's willingness to accommodate Walder.

In the Westerlands, Robb was taking castles, so he could use them as supply bases. He had an all-cavalry force, so for a short period he could move faster than Tywin's combined arms force.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yes, but it depends on your army. It will hard to get your cavalry through dense forest, while infantry can go through easily. Same goes on plain terrain, the cavalry will be quicker than infantry.

He can but he needs to harry his forces and needs to take a path that helps both infantry and cavalry contingent. The most prefered path will be through forest, it might slow his cavalry but his infantry will take the first hit of the oncoming wave of enemies, and then his cavalry charges later.

Weather and water obstacles play a role too.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, but it depends on your army. It will hard to get your cavalry through dense forest, while infantry can go through easily. Same goes on plain terrain, the cavalry will be quicker than infantry.

He can but he needs to harry his forces and needs to take a path that helps both infantry and cavalry contingent. The most prefered path will be through forest, it might slow his cavalry but his infantry will take the first hit of the oncoming wave of enemies, and then his cavalry charges later.

I cant be 100% sure, but I think mainly by roads. Its quicker and easier because the terrain is better to walk on compared to say blundering through the woods. It also reduces the chance of wandering of course somewhat, or blundering into natural barriers (hills, swamps etc). Jamie for definite takes his force by the Kingsroad when going to Harrenhal. I think Roose also leads the Northern foot along a road to attack Tywin in Game of Thrones? I suppose in desperate situations an army could marchcross country, but its risjy as you have a chance of getting lost or bogged down by nature.

(I may add that in Essos, armies likely march along the Valyrian roads where possible, for obvious reasons)

If you are leaving your base for more than a few days, you need some supplies. Wagons will need to travel by road or track. Pack animals would be more versatile. Robb undoubtedly traveled on a road of some sort when moving between the Twins and Riverrun. (The Frey's bridge would be all but useless if there wasn't a road to Riverrun.) The maps only show the major roads (perhaps built and maintained with Crown money).

Robb outmaneuvered Tywin around Riverrun because Tywin miscalculated Walder Frey's willingness to get involved, and Robb/Catelyn's willingness to accommodate Walder.

In the Westerlands, Robb was taking castles, so he could use them as supply bases. He had an all-cavalry force, so for a short period he could move faster than Tywin's combined arms force.

Weather and water obstacles play a role too.

Thanks to you all :D

But, for example, in the case of Robert's Rebellion, when Robert was defeated at Ashford, Jon Connington + army started to follow him, and they were catching up fast. In such a case, since the need was extremely high, could Robert had gone off road to avoid getting caught? I can imagine it would it's a longer way to get to the Stoney Sept/Riverrun by road than if you can cross the fields and such.

Any ideas?

[Lost Melnibonean]

I cant be 100% sure, but I think mainly by roads. Its quicker and easier because the terrain is better to walk on compared to say blundering through the woods. It also reduces the chance of wandering of course somewhat, or blundering into natural barriers (hills, swamps etc). Jamie for definite takes his force by the Kingsroad when going to Harrenhal. I think Roose also leads the Northern foot along a road to attack Tywin in Game of Thrones? I suppose in desperate situations an army could marchcross country, but its risjy as you have a chance of getting lost or bogged down by nature.

(I may add that in Essos, armies likely march along the Valyrian roads where possible, for obvious reasons)

The trade off is tactical security. You can march down a road and cover 25-50 miles in a day but you're probably going to do it in a double column with little screen since your main body will be moving as fast as any of your units can. There are much safer ways to travel using the terrain to screen your movements and allowing your elements to overwatch each other but that's slower.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Thanks to you all :D

But, for example, in the case of Robert's Rebellion, when Robert was defeated at Ashford, Jon Connington + army started to follow him, and they were catching up fast. In such a case, since the need was extremely high, could Robert had gone off road to avoid getting caught? I can imagine it would it's a longer way to get to the Stoney Sept/Riverrun by road than if you can cross the fields and such.

Any ideas?

Well we actually don't know what happened after the Ashford. Robert was said to have only been left with a minor army, so i expect there would have been a fair few battles on the way to Stoney Sept.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Thanks to you all :D

But, for example, in the case of Robert's Rebellion, when Robert was defeated at Ashford, Jon Connington + army started to follow him, and they were catching up fast. In such a case, since the need was extremely high, could Robert had gone off road to avoid getting caught? I can imagine it would it's a longer way to get to the Stoney Sept/Riverrun by road than if you can cross the fields and such.

Any ideas?

Depends on the terrain, motivation, conditioning and equipment. A lightly equipped force optimally supplied should be able to advance rapidly over gentle terrain, nearly as fast as they would on a road.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm spoiler tagging this for length and some D&E spoilers:

Though it may not have been GRRM's intention, the biggest thing I took away from The Sworn Sword, as a whole, was that a summer without end would be just as bad as a winter without end. The dream(and I assume you meant Chestnut) I agree the latter part seems to illustrate what Dunk fears will happen to these boys if they do not intervene, the early part of the dream could simply have stemmed from the fact that Dunk is thinking about all of them as he is getting ready for bed, but if you wanted to look deeper you could say that it may actually be guilt that he is trying to bury in the dream, perhaps for something he has yet to acknowledge(though I won't say what for spoiler reasons but I'm sure you know what I mean)especially the ending of the dream when no matter how hard they try they can't escape the collapsing grave. However that could also be just the desperation Dunk feels in regards to the entire Eustace/Widow situation. The tree cat makes me think Ser Eustace is one of those who puts stock in signs, as that is the moment he chooses to turn around and go back home, leaving Dunk and Egg to carry on to Coldmoat alone. I think the dead men in the cage are just that, dead men, but considering the mentions of Bloodraven, and a similar situation at the beginning of Mystery Knight, it could be that they are there to help paint a darker picture of Bloodraven. Whether or not Bloodraven himself had anything to do with them I don't know but it seems more likely it was just lords who feared Bloodraven, and that is the way he likes it, "It is better to be frightening, than frightened". By making Bloodraven seem like a sinister fellow, GRRM makes it less likely for us(or Dunk) to figure out that he is the ever helpful MP later on.

I appreciated your observations MC. Thanks. (Where the hell'd I get Sweetfoot from?)

[mindchap]

I appreciated your observations MC. Thanks. (Where the hell'd I get Sweetfoot from?)

Hedge Knight, that's the horse he rode in the beginning and that he later sells before the tourny.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well we actually don't know what happened after the Ashford. Robert was said to have only been left with a minor army, so i expect there would have been a fair few battles on the way to Stoney Sept.

A minor army, you say. Sounds interesting. Do you have the source for that? I can't remember that, to be honest.

Robert was wounded when he reached the Stoney Sept, and Jon Connington was right behind him, so at one point, JonCon's men might have caught up with Robert, although obviously not for very long.

A small army can move a lot faster than a large army, I guess. And that would help with the theory of sorts that I'm working on. :)

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

A minor army, you say. Sounds interesting. Do you have the source for that? I can't remember that, to be honest.

Although it states he was alone, but it was based on JonCon's intel, so i assume there might be few loyal guards who helped him move from one location to another.

The Griffin Reborn:

"He had lost it all at Stoney Sept, in his arrogance.

Robert Baratheon had been hiding somewhere in the town, wounded and alone."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Although it states he was alone, but it was based on JonCon's intel, so i assume there might be few loyal guards who helped him move from one location to another.

The Griffin Reborn:

"He had lost it all at Stoney Sept, in his arrogance.

Robert Baratheon had been hiding somewhere in the town, wounded and alone."

Is there any mention about where the rest of his army had gone? Scattered after Ashford? A few loyal men went north with him, and left him in the care of the Stoney Sept people so they could go and allert Roberts allies at Riverrun?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Is there any mention about where the rest of his army had gone? Scattered after Ashford? A few loyal men went north with him, and left him in the care of the Stoney Sept people so they could go and allert Roberts allies at Riverrun?

We do not know about that, but there is a mention of skirmishes on Dorne and Stormlands border. I think it was in an SSM.

I also believe few battles would have been fought between Ashford and Stoney Sept, considering he is a high profile target and could not have simply avoided battles.

No Ned ,Hoster and Denys were already marching on south to link up with Robert. I suppose they would have been sent a raven from Stoney Sept, to alert of his location.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

The Inn at the Crossroads is now north of the Trident, since the river moved. Before the river moved, the inn was built out over it.

In TMK, Dunk and Egg had just come from Stoney Sept, and they were definitely by a lake, not a river. The inn mentioned is built out over the lake on pilings. The only lake large enough to need a ferry to cross is the God's Eye. Dunk and Egg must have camped on the west bank of the God's Eye; Whitewalls must be on the eastern side, off the lake a ways.

Jaime was traveling from Harrenhall to KL by back roads, so he must have been on the east side of the lake, about 15-20 miles from Harrenhall.

These are three separate places.

In the village with the holdfast where Lorch attacked Yoren's group, Arya described an inn built out over the lake on pilings. Yoren couldn't cross the river that empties from the God's Eye, so they had to be on the east bank of the lake, near the southern end. Building an inn partially over water just seems to be a popular architectural style

I look at the map and it doesn't really help, it makes it look as though Lord Harroway's town and the Inn of the Crossroads would have always been on the same side of the trident instead of being separated by the Trident as Meribald indicates they once were. That said I'm still not convinced Dunk and Egg weren't at the Inn of the Crossroads. They had left Stoney Sept 6 days past and could thus have past the God's Eye. The lake/river distinction isn't all that significant. I think the Heddle connection and the fact that the ferry took people specifically to Whitewalls are far more significant hints indicating the Inn in TMK is the Inn of the Crossroads. The fact that Meribald would even use Whitewalls, a castle torn down 80 years prior, as a referent seems like a pretty strong indication that he's talking about the same Inn that Dunk and Egg came upon in TMK.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I look at the map and it doesn't really help, it makes it look as though Lord Harroway's town and the Inn of the Crossroads would have always been on the same side of the trident instead of being separated by the Trident as Meribald indicates they once were. That said I'm still not convinced Dunk and Egg weren't at the Inn of the Crossroads. They had left Stoney Sept 6 days past and could thus have past the God's Eye. The lake/river distinction isn't all that significant. I think the Heddle connection and the fact that the ferry took people specifically to Whitewalls are far more significant hints indicating the Inn in TMK is the Inn of the Crossroads. The fact that Meribald would even use Whitewalls, a castle torn down 80 years prior, as a referent seems like a pretty strong indication that he's talking about the same Inn that Dunk and Egg came upon in TMK.

The ferry to WW looks like a clincher with a couple of inconsistencies.

[Queen Whore]

Who is the handsome young man that Arya strips down in the HoBW while she is blind?

[RumHam]

Though it may not have been GRRM's intention, the biggest thing I took away from The Sworn Sword, as a whole, was that a summer without end would be just as bad as a winter without end.

Cteresa talked with George about how very long summers can be as bad as long winters, because of drought, forest fires, etc.

He was very vehement that they had enough rain in Dorne so they should be ok.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Interaction_Glasgow_Scotland_UK_August_4_8

So yeah I don't think that was his intention. Pretty sure in Westeros summer is always welcome, and winter always dreaded.