Jon Snow: A mary sue?

[BitsOfBrains]

OP: I donno man, just being on the wall is a pretty horrible thing to happen to someone.

You don't get to have any sex except with whores or other black brothers or MAYBE a wildling girl, MAYBE, but she would be more likely to bite off your dong than not.

As far as I can tell you don't get paid.

You are cold all the time.

You are pretty much guaranteed to die a gruesome/painful death and no one will care besides maybe other black brothers.

You are surrounded by rapers and killers and the scum of the earthsteros,

Its like prison except you don't ever get released and you are pretty much guaranteed a horrible gruesome death. We have seen a total of ONE black brother die peacefully. All of the others have had there eyes cut out or there heads cut off or been butchered and eaten.

Yeah maybe he has had a lot of good turns of luck, but he still has the worst life of any of the main characters.

[Minsc]

Yeah maybe he has had a lot of good turns of luck, but he still has the worst life of any of the main characters.

Yeah, not even close. Even if you just count Dany and Tyrion as main characters he has still had the best live in how nothing at the Wall probably compares to the mistreatment that Viserys and Tywin inflicted on those two respectively. While, characters like Bran (getting crippled), Arya (her struggles in the Riverlands), Sansa (her struggles in KL), Catelyn (her loss of her children), Theon (child hostage and Ramsay), etc all additionally have had worse then him.

[Nictarion]

Yeah maybe he has had a lot of good turns of luck, but he still has the worst life of any of the main characters.

Lol, not even close. Cat being cold and distant to him can't be compared to what Dany has been through. Years of physical and mental abuse from her only family member, and then being sold to a warlord at the age of 13.

[Gneisenau]

You don't get to have any sex except with whores or other black brothers or MAYBE a wildling girl, MAYBE, but she would be more likely to bite off your dong than not.

Dangerous sex is the best sex. Always on the edge if you know what I mean. :devil:

[BitsOfBrains]

Yeah ok I will give you Theon, I guess he slipped my mind. At least he had a life though and chose to throw it away.

Tyrion lived his life in the lap of luxury. Yes that was pretty horrible what Tywin did to his wife, but to say that his lot was worse than Jons is wrong. Tyrion lives a "Playboy" life. He only ever does what he wants. He just drinks, reads books, whores and pisses away money he didn't earn. Sounds like a pretty decent existence to me.

I never get why people think Viserys was so horrible to Daenerys. The only evidence we have for this is Daenerys, "poor me" narrative. "Viserys called me a bad name, he grabbed my arm too hard, poor me! I have had to live in other peoples mansions my whole life, poor me!" Guess what, a lot of people have mean older siblings and they don't end up having them killed. And don't give me that, "it was sexual" argument because thats just how Targeryns roll, part of the reason I dislike them.

And yeah Bran had it pretty bad for a while there, but he is almost a god now.

Arya had things pretty bad too.

Still though all of those characters (with the exception of Theon the eunuch) have the ability to hope that one day their lives might improve. Jon has absolutely no hope of ever having a good life.

[Minsc]

At least he had a life though and chose to throw it away.

Wouldn't that be the same as Jon?

Moreover, I think you are seriously undermining the abuse that Tyrion and Dany suffered from their respective guardians along with a lot of the other sufferings that other characters underwent.

Heck, if it just the NW's vows that make Jon's life so bad then Sam is in the same boat only he also had a monstrous abusive father that threatened to kill him added on.

[Nictarion]

Bits of Brains

Ok you want to pretend Viserys didn't abuse Dany, whatever (I guess Illyrio posting guards at her door on the night before her wedding to prevent Viserys from raping her slipped your mind) but what has Jon been through that would be worse than a 13 girl being sold to a man lik Drogo?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Come to think of it, Viserys had a pretty shitty time of it.

[LordStoneheart]

I never get why people think Viserys was so horrible to Daenerys. The only evidence we have for this is Daenerys, "poor me" narrative. "Viserys called me a bad name, he grabbed my arm too hard, poor me! I have had to live in other peoples mansions my whole life, poor me!" Guess what, a lot of people have mean older siblings and they don't end up having them killed. And don't give me that, "it was sexual" argument because thats just how Targeryns roll, part of the reason I dislike them.

Maybe because he abused her, literally sold her, said he'd let 40000 horses rape her, tried to rape her the night before her wedding, and held a sword to her womb while she was pregnant. But yeah, "poor me" narrative. This is all just fine and dandy when its not Dany's perspective.

[Lee-Sensei]

Yeah ok I will give you Theon, I guess he slipped my mind. At least he had a life though and chose to throw it away.

What do you mean? Jon had a life.

Tyrion lived his life in the lap of luxury. Yes that was pretty horrible what Tywin did to his wife, but to say that his lot was worse than Jons is wrong. Tyrion lives a "Playboy" life. He only ever does what he wants. He just drinks, reads books, whores and pisses away money he didn't earn. Sounds like a pretty decent existence to me.

Jaime lived in the lap of luxury and had it better than Jon. Tyrion? No. I'd take Jon's life over Tyrions any day.

Tyrion didn't live a "playboy" life. Guys like Robert, Oberyn and Theon did. Tyrion slept with whores because he's basically been told that's all he's good for. Despite being the son of the most powerful man in Westeros no Lords wanted to let there sisters and daughters marry him. When he found someone who did love him his father and his brother had her gang raped.

I never get why people think Viserys was so horrible to Daenerys. The only evidence we have for this is Daenerys, "poor me" narrative. "Viserys called me a bad name, he grabbed my arm too hard, poor me! I have had to live in other peoples mansions my whole life, poor me!" Guess what, a lot of people have mean older siblings and they don't end up having them killed. And don't give me that, "it was sexual" argument because thats just how Targeryns roll, part of the reason I dislike them.

Viserys was planning on raping her on her wedding night. Sold her to a a man over twice her age where she was raped. There's more, but that alone means that she had it harder than Jon Snow. It's funny that you're calling Daenerys chapters a "poor me" P.O.V. considering Jon had it much easier than her and still complains about his lot.

And yeah Bran had it pretty bad for a while there, but he is almost a god now.

Worse than Jon.

Arya had things pretty bad too.

Worse than Jon.

Still though all of those characters (with the exception of Theon the eunuch) have the ability to hope that one day their lives might improve. Jon has absolutely no hope of ever having a good life.

Why not?

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Which is why Mary Sue should be used for a special brand of badly written character and not just tossed around because people can't stand Jon/Arya/Dany/etc.

...

This.

Mary Sue is like "jumped the shark", people use those terms when they don't apply mostly because they don't like something.

[Nictarion]

Come to think of it, Viserys had a pretty shitty time of it.

I agree. Having to sell his mother's crown to feed himself and Dany is some sad shit.

[Ygrain]

Tyrion lived his life in the lap of luxury. Yes that was pretty horrible what Tywin did to his wife, but to say that his lot was worse than Jons is wrong. Tyrion lives a "Playboy" life. He only ever does what he wants. He just drinks, reads books, whores and pisses away money he didn't earn. Sounds like a pretty decent existence to me.

I never get why people think Viserys was so horrible to Daenerys. The only evidence we have for this is Daenerys, "poor me" narrative. "Viserys called me a bad name, he grabbed my arm too hard, poor me! I have had to live in other peoples mansions my whole life, poor me!" Guess what, a lot of people have mean older siblings and they don't end up having them killed. And don't give me that, "it was sexual" argument because thats just how Targeryns roll, part of the reason I dislike them.

If you think that Dany or Tyrion were not abused in childhood, you need to do a re-read. You may want to focus on why Dany is so scared of Viserys, or where Tyrion's self-esteem issues come from. Abuse takes many forms, and it is a huge difference if your close family is warm and loving, or cold, distant, scornful and tyrannic.

[Winter's Knight]

Your mind works in extremes, so you'd see a more introverted character as "just there." But the reality is actually not quite like that. Jon's got layers. Admittingly, they are kind of tricky to spot, but they are indeed there.

I have no issues with introverts, leaning more towards the introvert side of the scale myself. JonS is not the only introvert in the books either-the other one,Brienne being one of my favourites.

Jon is colourless, he's generic. Until Dance he was bland, unchallenged, pampered and whiny.

[butterbumps!]

I have no issues with introverts, leaning more towards the introvert side of the scale myself. JonS is not the only introvert in the books either-the other one,Brienne being one of my favourites.

Jon is colourless, he's generic. Until Dance he was bland, unchallenged, pampered and whiny.

I love you dearly, WK, but those assertions don't truly hold up. "Bland" is a matter of taste, so I'm not taking specific issue with this, but can you expand on why you consider him "generic," "unchallenged," "pampered" and "whiny" to DwD? (I think "whiny" is legitimate in aGoT; I'm just surprised it's being used to describe him during aCoK and aSoS).

[Winter's Knight]

I love you dearly, WK, but those assertions don't truly hold up. "Bland" is a matter of taste, so I'm not taking specific issue with this, but can you expand on why you consider him "generic," "unchallenged," "pampered" and "whiny" to DwD? (I think "whiny" is legitimate in aGoT; I'm just surprised it's being used to describe him during aCoK and aSoS).

I think it's the sharp contrast with the other characters, y'know? JonS feels like a character from a different book-I'd go from Jaime and Brienne navigating the Riverlands, Arya facing Roose and Harrenhal, Sansa being beaten and forcibly married to him complaining about his vows.

His story comes off as the Woes of the Straight White Male constantly interrupting my reading about the women and the disabled and the ones who don't adhere to society's strict gender dictonomy.

[butterbumps!]

I think it's the sharp contrast with the other characters, y'know? JonS feels like a character from a different book-I'd go from Jaime and Brienne navigating the Riverlands, Arya facing Roose and Harrenhal, Sansa being beaten and forcibly married to him complaining about his vows.

His story comes off as the Woes of the Straight White Male constantly interrupting my reading about the women and the disabled and the ones who don't adhere to society's strict gender dictonomy.

Ok, if his arc doesn't deal with themes that are of specific interest to you, then that's one thing. But that doesn't mean that he's "whiny, generic, unchallenged, or pampered."

What's a bit odd, though, about what you're saying your interest is in contrast to your view of Jon, is that he's actually a pretty [proto?] feminist, egalitarian character. So these themes do intersect his arc.

I don't know that I agree with this, but Jon is definitely the most generic character in the books IMO.

He's a bastard that's treated really well by his family but he still feels shitty over it. But oh wait his dad was actually crown prince, and oh wait he's not actually the product of rape, and oh wow! He's not even actually a bastard! They were married! He has a magic sword, a pet wolf. He became lord commander after l

I realize you're trolling me, but can you explain how this renders him "generic?"

[E-Ro]

I think it's the sharp contrast with the other characters, y'know? JonS feels like a character from a different book-I'd go from Jaime and Brienne navigating the Riverlands, Arya facing Roose and Harrenhal, Sansa being beaten and forcibly married to him complaining about his vows.

His story comes off as the Woes of the Straight White Male constantly interrupting my reading about the women and the disabled and the ones who don't adhere to society's strict gender dictonomy.

I don't know that I agree with this, but Jon is definitely the most generic character in the books IMO.

He's a bastard that's treated really well by his family but he still feels shitty over it. But oh wait his dad was actually crown prince, and oh wait he's not actually the product of rape, and oh wow! He's not even actually a bastard! They were married! He has a magic sword, a pet wolf. He became lord commander after like a year in the watch. That's super generic IMO. Everything is handed to him, his luck is incredible.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I don't know that I agree with this, but Jon is definitely the most generic character in the books IMO.

He's a bastard that's treated really well by his family but he still feels shitty over it. But oh wait his dad was actually crown prince, and oh wait he's not actually the product of rape, and oh wow! He's not even actually a bastard! They were married! He has a magic sword, a pet wolf. He became lord commander after like a year in the watch. That's super generic IMO. Everything is handed to him, his luck is incredible.

I would agree with this up until the Ides of Marsh

[Winter's Knight]

Ok, if his arc doesn't deal with themes that are of specific interest to you, then that's one thing. But that doesn't mean that he's "whiny, generic, unchallenged, or pampered."

What's a bit odd, though, about what you're saying your interest is in contrast to your view of Jon, is that he's actually a pretty [proto?] feminist, egalitarian character. So these themes do intersect his arc.

I don't think Jon implementing in theory some egalitarian measures is as interesting as other characters actually living it, I mean yes, he does allow spearwives in the Watch but he also uses his institutional power to seperate a rape victim from her son just to save his friend's child, effectively choosing the child of King-Beyond-the-Wall over the child of a young, unprotected, victimised woman.