Jon Snow: A mary sue?

[Mark Antony]

The 'fetch' scene is a particularly lame 'have your cake and eat it' moment. We're supposed to be happy because Starks get some measure of revenge. However, a Jon who goes out of his way to take vengeance would be a darker character. So Janos actually dies on account of Jon enforcing military discipline. This is a purer motive. So you are supposed to get the thrill of vengeance, while at the same time the act of taking revenge doesn't colour the character at all.

It's like one of the only have your cake and eat it moments in the fucking series. By all means think it's lame I'll continue to think it was a great scene.

[Warden of the Cheesy]

My question to the OP is if he even knows what a Mary Sue (also referred to as Marty Stu when the character is a male) actually is?

In short; No I do not think that Jon Snow represents George Martin in any way. I hold GRRM in too high esteem to think he would do something like this. I think your question should be; Does Jon Snow have plot armor? To which I respond; He would if he needed it.

[E-Ro]

This thread is fun.

[Jon Snow the Omniscient]

Personally, I've never seen such threads made about Sansa. I'd say Stannis and Dany are normal things to say, considering they are actually contenders, to be honest.

I'm not sure about your personal opinion, but I've seen so many threads that dedicate their times to describe at length how Jon can do no wrong, and how he'll rise and be AAR, single-handily save the world, sit as KITN, then King in the Iron Throne, then conquer Essos only for the lolz, still being the perfect husband to Val, because that makes much sense politically. And how other characters have no agency other than to support or oppose his quest to power. It gets worst when the theory is that Dany will conquer everything and will die/give up to Jon, as that is her main service to the story.

In fact, I've recently realized in my re-readings that I really enjoy Jon Snow in ADWD, but this twisted view of his character had spoiled my opinion of him. I quite like Jon Snow, GRRM's character. I simply can't stand the guy that is born to fulfill all promises, save the world, where everyone gives up agency for his rise to power, only because he's such a good person.

I haven't seen any threads where anybody says that Jon will just take the Iron Throne without anybody getting in his way, everybody seems to think that there will be a war of some sort. However, I personally don't delve into those threads very much, as taking the Iron Throne involves ignoring the White Walker threat to some extent and Jon would never do that while in-character (I just don't think Jon is going to become king).

[-Winterfellian-]

He has practically zero flaws and nothing goes against him. He's never punished for bad decisions or mistakes, Robb gets killed because he couldn't keep it in his pants, Tyrion is exiled because everyone hates him, Eddard is executed for telling Cersei. People get fucked over all the time. And Jon doesn't get even a tap on the wrist. Like literally nothing.

I'm not hating or anything, it's just weird that a series full of so many grey characters, there's a morally white guy who does everything right without a single mistake.

(Granted he get's stabbed but that doesn't mean anything because let's face it he's coming back. Oh. Another trait of a Mary Sue. Cheating death.)

If you are going to throw lazy dismissal of a character by turning him into a mary sue, just because he isn’t dead or does not meet your standards for grayness at least make a better case for it. Your own statement has contradictions as has been pointed out.

I could go on and on enumerating Jon’s flaws and the way he has paid consequences, not only for his own actions but of others, but why beat a dead horse. I will only address his lack of grayness and overall perfection as you put it.

First of all, is Jon a lesser shade of grey than other characters? Yes. But I don’t see how this is a problem. Partly because is not like he is the only one. There are plenty of other characters like Sam, Davos or Brienne who lean towards white rather than gray, more so than Jon. It is Jon’s attitude towards the world in which he moves what make him stand out, but in a positive way I feel. This attitude is not the product of lazy writing/mary suishness, but it is very well developed throughout his entire arch.

One thing that stands out for me regarding Jon is that despite his secret parentage, direwolf, bastard status, and whatever other quality fans may attribute to him, Jon remains very much a normal guy for our standards. Hence why, sometimes, as readers, we can fall victim of judging and analyzing Jon’s actions only through our omniscient and modern perspective and/or conflating expectations in service of the narrative with Mary Suishness.

I for once find it more interesting to analyze where his drive to act according to a higher standard than those around him comes from and how it colors his own actions and those around him. After all, his goodness is not this high elevated state of mind resulting from a shallow characterization. It is a reflection not only of the character himself but of the influences he’s had about him (and he’s been pretty privileged regarding this last one). Jon is not always on a sure moral footing, he genuinely struggles when his conscience and his desires comes into conflict and second guesses himself at almost every turn. I find these struggles between conscience, desires, expectations, etc. as complex in their nature as those of a more morally gray character may face.

[Jon Snow the Omniscient]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/62964-jon-snow-gary-stu-or-just-annoying-cliche/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77079-why-is-jon-snow-not-as-grey-or-nuanced-as-all-the-other-characters/page-2

This kind of thread has been done before, BTW. The anti-Jon arguments were crushed there too.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I thought Mary Sue's died heroically saving everyone. But I guess the story isn't over yet.

[Good Guy Garlan]

He's not a Mary Sue, he's just boring

[Mirri Maz Durr]

He's not a Mary Sue, he's just boring

:agree:

[The Kinkslayer]

... And Jon doesn't get even a tap on the wrist..

His hand got burned you know

[Florina Laufeyson]

Can we get a list of all these jon fangirls/boys? I just want to know who to look out for, ya know?

Yeah me too. Other than one, i cant think of any.

mary sue

Web definitions

1. In fan fiction, a Mary Sue is an idealized character representing the author

Now, if we take out the fan-fiction part, we have the idea that Jon Snow is an idealized character that represents G.R.R. Martin. Except, Martin has already stated that Tyrion is his favorite character and probably identifies with him closest. So this is idea of Jon being a Gary-Sue is pretty much impossible to say the least.

Canon Sues do exist. They are really rare though and i can only think of two off the top of my head that are main characters. Those would be Bella from Twilight and Lestat from the Vampire Chronicles. (the latter is at least likable) GRRM's pet may be Tyrion, but hes no Sue.

Ed fetch me a block is sort of overrated. Hes just asking for a piece of wood so he can cut a defenseless guys head off. I dont get why thats so badass. Janos was an asshole sure, but really? "fetch me a block" is so idolized, and i dont get it.

Whinge whinge whinge.

Honestly, I agree. Janos might have been annoying, but that was all he was it isn't like he was some mastermind who dramatically destroyed the Starks that it really satisfied any sense of vengeance. Honestly, at times one would think that Jon was about to execute Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Walder, and LF all at once with how much people praise it.

Sounds like more whinging. "I dont know why people praise a scene that has a character coming into their own entirely and shaping how the rest of their arc is going to be. Stop liking what i dont like!"

Exactly, thank you! Mary Sues are glaringly obvious self-inserts of the author, not characters that happen to follow the hero archetype.

Usually. Sometimes they are a little more discreet. Like Tom Bombadil whos just so weird that its like a Sue of Nature. Like i said, Canon Sues are rare.

The 'fetch' scene is a particularly lame 'have your cake and eat it' moment. We're supposed to be happy because Starks get some measure of revenge. However, a Jon who goes out of his way to take vengeance would be a darker character. So Janos actually dies on account of Jon enforcing military discipline. This is a purer motive. So you are supposed to get the thrill of vengeance, while at the same time the act of taking revenge doesn't colour the character at all.

:rolleyes: This is more "Stop liking what i am ironically trying to dislike."

[Father of Hosts]

His hand got burned you know

Fairly certain he took an arrow to the... leg, at one point.

[ghosts in winterfell]

He's not a Mary Sue, he's just boring

These LIES....

[Minsc]

Sounds like more whinging. "I dont know why people praise a scene that has a character coming into their own entirely and shaping how the rest of their arc is going to be. Stop liking what i dont like!"

I don't care if people like it or not, instead I just agree with E-ro that in my opinion it isn't as badass as people make it out to be. It is just that Janos doesn't register to me as being all that important for me to get pumped up about his death scene. Simply, he comes off as someone that once acted like LF's puppet who was kinda of annoying at worst thus his execution ranks up more in common with Merrett Frey or Balon Greyjoy then either Tywin, Joffrey, or Gregor in the awesome scale.

[Jiriki]

No one in this series is a Mary Sue. No, not even Dany. Dany has traits but is an obvious deconstruction of the very idea of a Lost Princess/Special Race figure. Jon cannot possibly be a Mary Sue. He is not without visible flaws. He is often called out by other characters. He is not the best fighter in the Watch either. Nothing he does is inconsistent with the universe of ASOIAF. Classic Hero Archetype =/= Mary Sue.

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't thought about it, but you're absolutely right about Dany being a deconstruction of a Lost Princess. On further thought, I think she might even be a deconstruction of a Mary Sue. A common trait of Mary Sues are purple eyes.

But, yeah, no Mary Sues in Asoiafland.

[WeddinGuest]

I suspect many people here have never touched a Twilight book or seen a Twilight movie. I've read the first 3 books and seen the first 3 movies, and actually bought the 4th book but never got through it because the whole story became so ludicrous toward the end -- however, I do have a general idea of how it finished up. Anyway, I agree that Bella Swan is MUCH closer to being a Mary Sue than anyone in ASOIAF.

For anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled, I used spoiler tags:

Bella herself doesn't actually hit every mark on the Sue-meter. I don't know enough about Stephenie Meyer to say if she's a self-insert, Also, "Bella Swan" isn't THAT unique a name, and she's not described as a great beauty. I wouldn't say the "special power" she gets is totally unique, as many vampires in the story have special powers, and they all supposedly had a less powerful version of them in their human lives as well. She also doesn't have that interesting of a backstory, as far as I can recall, her parents got hitched as teens in a shotgun marriage that rather predictably failed shortly after Bella was born, spends most of her life in her mother's custody, and after mom remarries, decides to spend a couple years with her father before college.

However, she certainly fits the trope of "everyone loving Mary Sue except for obvious villains". Even without any great beauty, almost all the boys at her new school wish to date her, and she captures the heart of Edward, a virginal vampire that has remained celibate for almost 100 years. She also is quickly accepted into both the Cullen clan of vampires, except for Rosalie, who is obviously supposed to be a "witch", AND the Native tribe that includes shapeshifting "werewolves", even though both societies are depicted as quite closed off from mere mortals.

She also seems to have no real flaws except for "being clumsy", which is certainly presented as endearing. She selflessly sacrifices herself (or tries to) for her mother in the first book, Edward in the second and third book, and almost singlehandedly saves the day in the fourth book.

Also, she get to have and eat her cake because, despite being a supposedly caring, selfless, sacrificial person, she actually manages to get everything she wants without any real sacrifice -- she gets to be a vamp and still keep in touch with her folks, because unlike pretty much every other vamp, she doesn't suffer at all from bloodlust towards humans. She also winds up giving birth to a half-vamp kid, even though there's no sign of this at all being possible earlier in the series. Also, Edward, who has vacillated a lot about the ethics of turning Bella into a vampire (as he believes this will cost her soul), actually winds up choosing to change her because the birth of the child leaves her near death, and gets around the whole moral question because of the emergent situation.

The child, Renesmee, is actually even more of a Mary Sue than her mother; she has the exotic name, unique origin, special powers (that actually specifically include the power of making everyone fawn over her), and seems to be a unique "miracle child" for most of the story; although at the very end, similar half-vamps show up, they really come in just in time to help save the day, and just added to the whole Sue-ness of both mother and child.

There's certainly no one like that in ASOIAF, so far. (And BTW, I seriously doubt Jon will single-handedly save the day or get everything he ever wanted; if he does, then he might qualify for some Gary Stu-ness, and I know some of his fans think this will happen, but I doubt GRRM is that bad a writer.)

[Fat Mac]

He's not a Mary Sue, he's just boring

This. For most of his character arc, Jon's chapters have been a snooze fest for me.

[Nictarion]

That was a pretty flawless line.

What the hell Antony, you turned into Ginger from TD?

[Mark Antony]

What the hell Antony, you turned into Ginger from TD?

I embrace the outlaw life

[Ygrain]

It's the difference between having someone else do the dirty work and being disconnected from your choices as a leader, and getting your hands dirty and being willing to see your decisions through. If you think it's just about a hunk of wood, that's your issue.

Gosh, it sure never occured to me that someone taking personally drastic measures the first time in their life to solidify their authority might be interpreted in such an insubstantial way.