Let us 'ship Bran and Danaerys!

[Mark Antony]

*jumps aboard*

[KingOfTheDirewolves]

*jumps aboard*

Well, it can't be worse then Danaerys Frey

[Petyr Patter]

I'm bumping my thread because of an interesting nugget in the World of Ice and Fire.

I have not read the book, but others have and pointed out an interesting historic document. This is spoiler territory, albeit not for the main story. Regardless, this update must be in spoiler quotes. I think. Maybe I'll edit out the spoiler tag once the moratorium is removed.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120085-the-pact-of-ice-and-fire-twoiaf-spoilers-rlj-proven-even-more/

The Pact of Ice and Fire.

A promise from a from a Targaryen king to a Lord Stark of Winterfell for a royal marriage in exchange for his support. There is no evidence that this marriage ever took place, maybe due to the dynastic "trimming" that happened during the Dance of the Dragons. Or, this is the reason why Aegon V's "marry for love" policy resulted in more enemies instead of friends. Regardless, this Pact shares a name with the series itself. There is no way Martin does such a name drop without some meaning.

I think its less than subtle foreshadowing. Specifically, foreshadowing of a Stark and Targaryen wedding. If you read the subject line and thus the point of this unlikely theory, you know who I think its going to be. Bran and Danaerys.

I've already read one thread suggesting this is evidence of Jon's true parentage. I don't think so. I'll stick to the most basic problem: abducting a Lord's daughter already betrothed to another is not doing the guy any favors. It is actually insulting him. Plus, any marriage would widely be seen as illegal (which why I think Lyanna was content to be Rhaeghar's mistress, but that is another argument for another thread).

So, speculation. The Targaryens failed to fulfill their promise to the Starks in the Pact of Ice and Fire. Instead, they ultimately turned on the Starks with a series of insults. First kidnapping the Lord's daughter. Then murdering said lord and his son and heir in a mockery of Westerosi justice.

There is another thread out right now asking if the Starks will "bend the knee" to another Targaryen. Why would they after their treatment at the hands of the Mad King? I think the Targaryens better think of some way to mend the wounds they caused to the admittedly distant relationship. I mean, look what Robb had to deal with for his broken betrothal. Fulfilling the Pact of Ice and Fire (name drop!) would be a great start, and would give the series name meaning. Oh, but there is only one Targaryen left. Admittedly, she is currently married by I suspect the Shavepate is about to see to that nuptial. And there is only one Stark whose possibly close enough in age.

Dun dun dun!

Or, for non-spoilers, check out this older post I made in another thread saying Bran is now the Blue Rose in Danaerys's vision: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101805-reexamining-the-blue-flower-on-the-wall-of-ice-what-does-it-really-mean-for-jon/?p=5275719 .

[Mithras]

I am 99.9% sure that Dany won't survive the series.

The Pact of Ice and Fire is a hint for R+L=J and the prince that was promised being Jon.

[DeathYon]

Hmmm, how about this?

[Hrafntýr]

Personally, I think that the structural parallels and the shared motifs in Bran's and Dany's stories (and they ARE there, I agree) are for the purpose of adding depth and richness to each of their characters, allowing us also to see what makes each character unique even as they revolve around the shared, core themes of the series. I don't think it is meant to imply that they are destined to wind up together. After all, these characters are also written to parallel other characters in the series. For example, there are wonderful parallels between Bran's and Arya's stories, but I don't think anyone would suggest that Bran and Arya are destined to marry.

[TheHouseHB]

Theon/Daenerys if Theon gets his toy back by magic from the red god?

[Petyr Patter]

I am 99.9% sure that Dany won't survive the series.

The Pact of Ice and Fire is a hint for R+L=J and the prince that was promised being Jon.

That is one interpretation, but it a poor one. I'm going to repeat myself here, but I'll explain why. The common understanding of Westerosi law is such a marriage would be illegal. Futhermore, Martin knows he doesn't need to give any more hints for Lyanna as Jon's mother. The Game of Thrones was dripping with them, and while he doesn't regularly visit forums, he knows its a well documented theory. Also, kidnapping a Lord's daughter and wedding her against his will isn't fulfilling a treaty. If anything, its subverting it. Which is why Rhaeghar's actions (he was the adult) set off reactions that got Lyanna's father and brother killed. Because it wasn't acting like the two houses were allies.

Though more than that, just how important is Jon? Very important? I think so. So important that the other characters don't matter? Definitely not. Even when Rhaeghar spoke of the "song of ice and fire," he also said the Dragon must have 3 heads. So, we know there must be two others to fulfill whatever prophecy he read. Presumably, that prophecy is to save Westeros from the Others. So, he needs help.

There is only one other "dragon," she actually has dragons without the quotations. Finding the third head is difficult. Is it Aegon the Maybe? Shireen? A "dragon seed" such as Brown Ben Plumm? I don't know. Though, once again, it is a song of ICE and fire, not A song of Fire and Fire. So, this phrase has to mean more than just Jon, and perhaps involve another representative of House "Ice." Or, maybe its late and I'm just rambling.

Personally, I think that the structural parallels and the shared motifs in Bran's and Dany's stories (and they ARE there, I agree) are for the purpose of adding depth and richness to each of their characters, allowing us also to see what makes each character unique even as they revolve around the shared, core themes of the series. I don't think it is meant to imply that they are destined to wind up together. After all, these characters are also written to parallel other characters in the series. For example, there are wonderful parallels between Bran's and Arya's stories, but I don't think anyone would suggest that Bran and Arya are destined to marry.

Oh, certainly. Actually, all the Stark children's journeys have parallels. I think that is intentional as they are all representatives of the Stark quest to restore their family. Obviously, they aren't going to get married.

So, the evidence isn't conclusive. I never said it was. I did say it was suggestive. And there is a lot suggestive. I mean, the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire. What does that mean? Just that dragons are going to be there during the Second Long Night? We know Bran has an important role to fulfill. A role that is now directly at odds with Danaerys's stated goals of a conqueror. Can they put aside their differences to fight the real enemy? How could that trust even be built? Usually this is done through dynastic marriages. I don't know everything, but I see enough to start a conversation.

[LordStoneheart]

It's almost been a year... how come you haven't corrected her name in the thread title yet? ;)

[Mithras]

That is one interpretation, but it a poor one. I'm going to repeat myself here, but I'll explain why. The common understanding of Westerosi law is such a marriage would be illegal. Futhermore, Martin knows he doesn't need to give any more hints for Lyanna as Jon's mother. The Game of Thrones was dripping with them, and while he doesn't regularly visit forums, he knows its a well documented theory. Also, kidnapping a Lord's daughter and wedding her against his will isn't fulfilling a treaty. If anything, its subverting it. Which is why Rhaeghar's actions (he was the adult) set off reactions that got Lyanna's father and brother killed. Because it wasn't acting like the two houses were allies.

Though more than that, just how important is Jon? Very important? I think so. So important that the other characters don't matter? Definitely not. Even when Rhaeghar spoke of the "song of ice and fire," he also said the Dragon must have 3 heads. So, we know there must be two others to fulfill whatever prophecy he read. Presumably, that prophecy is to save Westeros from the Others. So, he needs help.

There is only one other "dragon," she actually has dragons without the quotations. Finding the third head is difficult. Is it Aegon the Maybe? Shireen? A "dragon seed" such as Brown Ben Plumm? I don't know. Though, once again, it is a song of ICE and fire, not A song of Fire and Fire. So, this phrase has to mean more than just Jon, and perhaps involve another representative of House "Ice." Or, maybe its late and I'm just rambling.

According to Aemon's erroneus interpretation, Dany is officially TPTWP in the series. However, George does not give away his big mysteries like this. The Pact of Ice and Fire being a marriage between a Targ and a Stark is only one of the clues to Jon being TPTWP. Jon is literally the prince that was promised which is not easy to understand if one does not know R+L=J and Ned's promise to Lyanna.

Jon is the three headed dragon. He is Jon Snow per upbringing, Jon Stark per Robb's will but in fact he is Jon Targaryen. He has his own head and Ghost's head. He will have his third head when he rides a dragon. Varamyr Sixskins, a thousand eyes and one. This is the pattern with three heads too.

Jon acted like the embodiment of House Targaryen when he burned his right hand [Fire] and fed ravens with raw meat with his left hand [blood].

[midi]

It's "Brany", obviously. Yes I can support this.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Curious about why people hate shipping. What makes shipping worse than rooting for a favorite character or wishing death on characters one dislikes?

Shipping is so cliche, but those who hate shipping just to be cool are even more cliche.

[Ser Creighton]

According to Aemon's erroneus interpretation, Dany is officially TPTWP in the series. However, George does not give away his big mysteries like this. The Pact of Ice and Fire being a marriage between a Targ and a Stark is only one of the clues to Jon being TPTWP. Jon is literally the prince that was promised which is not easy to understand if one does not know R+L=J and Ned's promise to Lyanna.

Jon is the three headed dragon. He is Jon Snow per upbringing, Jon Stark per Robb's will but in fact he is Jon Targaryen. He has his own head and Ghost's head. He will have his third head when he rides a dragon. Varamyr Sixskins, a thousand eyes and one. This is the pattern with three heads too.

Jon acted like the embodiment of House Targaryen when he burned his right hand [Fire] and fed ravens with raw meat with his left hand [blood].

“ No, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? ”

Goodness that's three heads too, just like the sigil of house Targaryen, and I think someone already has 3 dragons. Dany also has many associations with 3. Though Jon did get stabbed 3 times, so was that one for each head? He fed ravens and burnt his had and that is symbolic of house Targaryen? The embodiment of house Targaryen is burn your hand and feed the Ravens? I thought it was Dragons. Fire and blood is a motto, there symbol is the Dragon with three heads. Lets see who is a Targaryen that woke the Dragons from stone? That rides a dragon? That is called the mother of Dragons, the bride of dragons and the daughter of dragons.

Dany even completely fulfilled the ancient story of the sun and the moon, and performed a miracle. It's not a rumor or word of mouth or a lie or a story, she performed an actual miracle.

Now does this make Dany Azur or the Prince or the last hero? Well she has seen herself as the last dragon as well but I don't thin that is right. So does it make Jon Azur or the hero or the Prince. I don't think so either.

You the prophecies and the ancient tales all have something in common. It's always 2 symbolic of male and female, making something and in two cases we know night a day are part of that symbolism and it probably can be said of all of them.

The Sun and the Moon (Dragons)

The Maiden made of light and the lion of night. (Child)

Azur and Nissa Nissa. (Lightbringer)

Dragons, child and sword. Always male and always female, always night and always day in unification which results in the third. We have a princess with Dragons and Boy who dreamed of a flaming sword. Dragons, Lightbringer, Child. Jon and Dany can be a lot of things but they are not two people and they are not Male and Female alone, you don't get the dragons, or Lightbringer, or the child unless you have both. All three are one and each one is 3. 1 and 3. Then you have the last hero, 13. Food for thought anyway.

[Mithras]

Lets see who is a Targaryen that woke the Dragons from stone?

That one is one of the greatest red herrings IMO.

The stone dragon that needs to be awakened is Jon and that will be done when he learns R+L=J. In this revelation, kingsblood is necessary. Or to be more precise, king's blood. And not just one but two; first father and then the son. Ned and Bran are blood to kings (Robb and Jon). They are the king's blood that will awaken the stone dragon by explaning Jon his parentage in a dream at the crypts. In one of Jon's dreams in the crypts, there was a grey direwolf spotted with blood who looked at Jon with sad eyes. That one was Ned who has been waiting to speak to Jon. In Bran's case, he will also heal Jon's body.

Jon is the avatar of Mithras in ASOIAF and Mithras is born from the rock in a cave. The equivalent of that is Jon being awakened from stone. Stone represents the Starks in hiding.

[Nictarion]

He fed ravens and burnt his had and that is symbolic of house Targaryen? The embodiment of house Targaryen is burn your hand and feed the Ravens? I thought it was Dragons.

😁😁😁

[MoIaF]

“ No, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? ”

Goodness that's three heads too, just like the sigil of house Targaryen, and I think someone already has 3 dragons. Dany also has many associations with 3. Though Jon did get stabbed 3 times, so was that one for each head? He fed ravens and burnt his had and that is symbolic of house Targaryen? The embodiment of house Targaryen is burn your hand and feed the Ravens? I thought it was Dragons. Fire and blood is a motto, there symbol is the Dragon with three heads. Lets see who is a Targaryen that woke the Dragons from stone? That rides a dragon? That is called the mother of Dragons, the bride of dragons and the daughter of dragons.

Dany even completely fulfilled the ancient story of the sun and the moon, and performed a miracle. It's not a rumor or word of mouth or a lie or a story, she performed an actual miracle.

Now does this make Dany Azur or the Prince or the last hero? Well she has seen herself as the last dragon as well but I don't thin that is right. So does it make Jon Azur or the hero or the Prince. I don't think so either.

You the prophecies and the ancient tales all have something in common. It's always 2 symbolic of male and female, making something and in two cases we know night a day are part of that symbolism and it probably can be said of all of them.

The Sun and the Moon (Dragons)

The Maiden made of light and the lion of night. (Child)

Azur and Nissa Nissa. (Lightbringer)

Dragons, child and sword. Always male and always female, always night and always day in unification which results in the third. We have a princess with Dragons and Boy who dreamed of a flaming sword. Dragons, Lightbringer, Child. Jon and Dany can be a lot of things but they are not two people and they are not Male and Female alone, you don't get the dragons, or Lightbringer, or the child unless you have both. All three are one and each one is 3. 1 and 3. Then you have the last hero, 13. Food for thought anyway.

She's literally referred to as the Child of Three, just sayin'.

There is no purer representation of the Targaryen's than Dany, but sure lets make the guy who doesn't even know he's a Targaryen more Tragargaryen than the woman who brought back the dragons because that makes complete sense.

:eyeroll:

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

She's literally referred to as the Child of Three, just sayin'.

There is no purer representation of the Targaryen's than Dany, but sure lets make the guy who doesn't even know he's a Targaryen more Tragargaryen than the woman who brought back the dragons because that makes complete sense.

:eyeroll:

This. Dany is literally the Targ legacy, and we have no idea how Jon will react when he learns he's a Targ. He could very well reject his natural father's house in favor of his mother's. His upbringing, faith, values, and personality are all very Stark & Northern.

Of course, I think that won't happen. There's a reason why Jon's not just a Stark, but also a Targ. But your point is true.

[Petyr Patter]

It's "Brany", obviously. Yes I can support this.

OK, that is a good one.

Curious about why people hate shipping. What makes shipping worse than rooting for a favorite character or wishing death on characters one dislikes?

Shipping is so cliche, but those who hate shipping just to be cool are even more cliche.

Eh, it is kind of childish. Especially when it comes with poetry and art. It also takes more joy out of the potential of a pairing than any actual relationship. Which is kind of immature. I try not to hate on the practice, though, and when I realized I was writing a shipping thread, I decided to own the label.

To each their own, and everyone can have their own fantasies.

That one is one of the greatest red herrings IMO.

The stone dragon that needs to be awakened is Jon and that will be done when he learns R+L=J. In this revelation, kingsblood is necessary. Or to be more precise, king's blood. And not just one but two; first father and then the son. Ned and Bran are blood to kings (Robb and Jon). They are the king's blood that will awaken the stone dragon by explaning Jon his parentage in a dream at the crypts. In one of Jon's dreams in the crypts, there was a grey direwolf spotted with blood who looked at Jon with sad eyes. That one was Ned who has been waiting to speak to Jon. In Bran's case, he will also heal Jon's body.

Jon is the avatar of Mithras in ASOIAF and Mithras is born from the rock in a cave. The equivalent of that is Jon being awakened from stone. Stone represents the Starks in hiding.

So you believe Danaerys hatching 3 dragons from petrified eggs is a red herring for the actual 'dragon from stone'? And that is Jon, who isn't stone.

Look, I like Jon. I like him a lot. He is probably one of my top 10 favorite characters. He is mostly a good guy trying to help people while trying to save the world. I don't like him to the point his role should be viewed as excluding others from having important roles. I'd say the same thing about Danaerys. Despite her impressive accomplishments, she simply isn't going to be the one true savior. Indeed, she may actively get in the way of the effort if she invades a weakened Westeros desperately in need of unity.

So, one of the reasons I wrote this thread is see how the characters I think are going to be important going down the stretch will interact with each other. Jon's role as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is pretty clear to me. He takes that vow seriously, and recall the very first scene with a Stark was Jon watching his father (in the ways that matter) executing a deserter who fled upon witnessing an Other. He's not going to leave the Night's Watch except in the proverbially body bag. Which is right where he needs to be to help save the world. Bran is not that far away and is told by Brynden he has an important role to defeat the Others. So, it can't just be Jon.

Just,open your mind a little, OK.

[Mithras]

So you believe Danaerys hatching 3 dragons from petrified eggs is a red herring for the actual 'dragon from stone'? And that is Jon, who isn't stone.

Exactly.

Like you said yourself, pertirified eggs are no more stone than Jon. In fact, we do not even know whether those eggs were petrified or not. We only had Illyrio's word on that. And we do not know how long dragon eggs can stay alive. Or we do not know whether it is possible for a dragon egg to be petrified.

By the way, Jon is a dragon. So, him waking up (realizing himself as a dragon) is a perfectly valid case.

I never excluded the role of Bran. He is AAR according to my take along with Sam and Davos. Jon is LB. So, these are the most important people in saving the world.

Dany will not fight the Others. In fact, she will be spending dragons and armies in the civil war while the others are tyring to keep the Others at bay.

[JonSnow4President]

Exactly.

Like you said yourself, pertirified eggs are no more stone than Jon. In fact, we do not even know whether those eggs were petrified or not. We only had Illyrio's word on that. And we do not know how long dragon eggs can stay alive. Or we do not know whether it is possible for a dragon egg to be petrified.

By the way, Jon is a dragon. So, him waking up (realizing himself as a dragon) is a perfectly valid case.

I never excluded the role of Bran. He is AAR according to my take along with Sam and Davos. Jon is LB. So, these are the most important people in saving the world.

Dany will not fight the Others. In fact, she will be spending dragons and armies in the civil war while the others are tyring to keep the Others at bay.

Not to be technical (actually, definitely to be technical)...

Petrified eggs are literally eggs that have turned to stone. Petra, the root of the word, literally means rock. So if they are indeed petrified, then they trully were woken from stone.

I'm also of the opinion this is likely a red herring (or one of three acts that will be shared across 3 AA's), but I must point out the technicality.

Captain Nitpick Away!!!