Braavos is on TV, but still WoW is not in sight.

[TheRatCook]

Or he could write faster/dedicate more time to it etc. The issue is NOT that B&B are keeping pace and schedule; the issue is that Martin won't.

I said in my original post on this topic that blame lies squarely with Martin. And its not really blame; the man wanted to enjoy the fruits of his labor outside of the drudgery of simply writing these books, and that his his prerogative.

And:

It can happen to anyone. At any time. Denial can strike at any time to a ASoIaF fan. Know the symptoms. They may include:

• Inability to pick up on trends, such as that the time between book 1 and 2 was 3 years; between books 3 and 4, five years, and between books 4 and 5, six years.

The desire to take one or two things Martin has said and extrapolate into thinking it means the books may come put sooner (such as actually reading the "Meanwhile On the Wall" part of FFC when he said the next book would be out next year).

Delusions of believing what Amazon.com says about a "Release date."

Believing that the books will get written faster because third parties (B&B, HBO, the fans) will insist on it.

If you or somebody you love is suffering from the denial that the ASoIaF books are going to take a ludicrously long time and not to "get your hopes up" because there are articles out there that have said 1) no book in 2014, and 2) Martin's comments and the editor's comments seem to indicate that the book will not come out until 2017.... GET HELP! Its not too late to come to a reasonable conclusion...

... I mean, the way he writes its REALLY not too late....

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not in denial. I'm just choosing to be optimistic about it.

Hope for best, prepare for the worst is my motto. That is very different from ignoring the possibility that the worst could happen, ignoring that a pattern has been established previously and so on.

If it takes years, fine, it take years... but at least I won't have been so annoyed in the process of waiting. It comes down to your outlook really.

[DeepBlueSky]

The original book fans who care deeply about the accuracy of the show* are NOT the core fanbase; they are the fringe. The entirety of show watchers who read any of the books prior to the show isn't the core fanbase either; they are a larger fringe. This show incredibly, incredibly larger than the pre-show group, and their desires are not going to be factor in whatever is decided. Even if they all got angry and quit watching it would barely make a dent in the show's ratings. The show's massive popularity and place in the zeitgeist is not due to book-fan passion; its due to the fact that's its popular with people who haven't read genre fiction in years, if ever.

*and I am an original fan, I read the first books in 2000 and have been on the various versions of this site ever since then; I just don't care about accuracy

I think perhaps you misunderstand what 'core' means. The book readers are indeed the core fanbase of A Song of Ice and Fire and GRRM in general, whatever their opinion of the show is, and whether they watch it or not. There is no way that will ever change, as to do so would defy the meaning of 'core'.

[Fez]

I think perhaps you misunderstand what 'core' means. The book readers are indeed the core fanbase of A Song of Ice and Fire and GRRM in general, whatever their opinion of the show is, and whether they watch it or not. There is no way that will ever change, as to do so would defy the meaning of 'core'.

No, I think you do. The core fan base of any property are the ones who consume as much of it as possible, who talk about it a lot with friends and on the internet, purchase merchandising, and go to events like cons. Sure, plenty of book readers are part of that group, but its not a 1=1 thing.

The very first episode of Game of Thrones had 2.2 million viewers on first view, and total viewership that week was 6.8 million. Meanwhile, A Game of Thrones sold a total of million copies from 1996 to 2010. Sure, not everyone watching that first episode is a core fan, but likewise neither is everyone who read at least the first book at some point over 14 years. Point is, the show is vastly more popular than the books, and always has been. The book readers have been useful from a marketing perspective, but they've never been driving audience preferences.

[Red Raven]

The show isn't going to stop its steady march forward and, with such a huge cast and crew and child actors involved (along with the difficulties of contract negotiation and actor availability) taking a hiatus or extending beyond 8 (or more likely 7) seasons just isn't going to happen.

Regardless of who the core is and who follows whom, the reality appears to be either GRRM needs to write faster or D&D will finish the story first.

[Le Cygne]

Though initially published without great fanfare, the books had sold more than 15 million copies worldwide as of June 2011,^[2] and more than 24 million copies as of September 2013,^[3] and have been translated into more than 20 languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Ice_and_Fire

[D-Shiznit]

The Ball is in GRRM's court, he has until 2017 to finish his story. Put up or shut up.

That said, he won't, he can't. The show will overtake the books, it might sound harsh but #Deal With it.

[DeepBlueSky]

No, I think you do. The core fan base of any property are the ones who consume as much of it as possible, who talk about it a lot with friends and on the internet, purchase merchandising, and go to events like cons. Sure, plenty of book readers are part of that group, but its not a 1=1 thing.

The very first episode of Game of Thrones had 2.2 million viewers on first view, and total viewership that week was 6.8 million. Meanwhile, A Game of Thrones sold a total of million copies from 1996 to 2010. Sure, not everyone watching that first episode is a core fan, but likewise neither is everyone who read at least the first book at some point over 14 years. Point is, the show is vastly more popular than the books, and always has been. The book readers have been useful from a marketing perspective, but they've never been driving audience preferences.

Numbers =/ core; Fervent =/core (though core fans can be fervent fans, they need not be)

Also, your numbers are off:

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/swords-suds-game-thrones-spurs-sales-hbo-200131821--finance.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/books-and-media/george-rr-martin-at-the-top-of-his-game-of-thrones/article4259412/

I could link more.

The 1,000,000 # you reference is for paperback only, and probably only the U.S. paperback at that. Book publishing numbers aren't easy to come by, especially for an author that's published worldwide such as GRRM and consequently has more than one publisher. There are also e-books and audio books to consider, and those numbers are not small either before or after the show premiered. But again, and regardless, bigger numbers =/ core. Not to mention book sales numbers are far more reliable and accurate than TV ratings numbers for any show ever.

Most of the folks I know who watch the show, also have read the books (some before the show, more after). Almost everyone I know who watches the show does so because it was recommended to them by a book reader. I know no one who has read/seen both that prefers the show to the books (out of a few dozen I've discussed it with), and though I'm sure these folks exist they are likely in the minority not only based on my experience but just look around this forum or others. I do know a person such as yourself who has both read the books (he read them first) and watched the show and doesn't really care either way if the show surpasses the books, but he is also in the minority, as everyone else is anxious to read the book first. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of GRRM's fans, both core and not, will be disappointed to see the ending to the series before they read it.

A Song of Ice and Fire (like so many other things) is a word of mouth phenomenon that was anything but an overnight out of the gate sensation. A word of mouth phenomenon starts with the core fans. Core being synonymous with fundamental, original, central, nucleus, etc.. not most, largest, average. Folks who jump on a bandwagon are never core fans of anything. They certainly can be fans though.

First and foremost GRRM is an author, and as such his core fans, those that have been with him longest, and touted his works earliest thereby spreading the word of his works, are the book readers. First and foremost, A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of books, even if they are surpassed one day by a television production based on them.

[mormont]

I think GRRM is going to make far more off the royalties of the TV show than he will with his last couple books so I'm pretty sure as far as finances go, there would be no issue.

I'm not sure this is correct. So far as I know the one thing that makes GRRM himself more money than anything else is releasing a new ASOIAF novel. But I believe the money isn't the major motivating issue at this point, one way or the other.

[Daske]

...

A Song of Ice and Fire (like so many other things) is a word of mouth phenomenon that was anything but an overnight out of the gate sensation. A word of mouth phenomenon starts with the core fans. Core being synonymous with fundamental, original, central, nucleus, etc.. not most, largest, average. Folks who jump on a bandwagon are never core fans of anything. They certainly can be fans though.

First and foremost GRRM is an author, and as such his core fans, those that have been with him longest, and touted his works earliest thereby spreading the word of his works, are the book readers. First and foremost, A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of books, even if they are surpassed one day by a television production based on them.

That's the thing, it already has grown beyond. I think a large part of this is how genre fans have always felt an investment in their favourite shows/books/films. I know I always have. Despite all the books sold originally the ASoIaF series was pre-show virtually unknown outside of the genre fans. And this has obviously changed.

There has been a general trend with all things geek that much of it has now entered the mainstream. With comic obsessives directing billion dollar movies, the hysteria around Harry Potter, the wider critical acclaim of Battlestar Galactica. In the UK Doctor Who is now as traditional on Christmas Day as Father Christmas himself - a fan base once derided as the the most sadly obsessive of all. Everybody is now expected to be able to work tech and know how to use computer/phone apps and the internet which were once the domain of computer nerds only. Galactica gets voted in the top 10 critically acclaimed TV series ever; Kick Ass gets 5 star ratings from stuffy film critics who only normally give them to french arthouse films! And so on.

Anyway, the point is, genre art in whatever form is bigger than the old-school traditional hardcore sci fi/fantasy fans nowadays. It doesn't matter if GoT in the final seasons 'pisses off the core fanbase' - the show pisses off some of the obsessed book fans that post here anyway just because so-and-so didn't say their favourite line or so-and-so didn't happen to eat a certain fruit in one scene. They don't care because they know they got the other 99% spot on making a fantastically popular show and drew in millions of otherwise unititiated people while doing it. And many of these new people have become 'core fans' and will be as excited when the first episode of the new series airs as many of those that read the first book when it first came out.

The show doesn't 'need' the original fans any longer to be successful both commercially and critically. It is already a massive success and a cultural phenomenon. A village near me just changed its name from Kings Langley to Kings Landing for two weeks for heaven's sake! Yes, partly a marketing ploy, but it just goes to show how out there the 'brand' is that they know this joke will be recognised by a heck of a lot of people.

It's obvious that the show core base has grown beyond book fans when one of the T-shirt slogans reads "I joined the Night's Watch Before it Was Cool". Damn, if we have to advertise that we were there first now! But honestly, even as someone who does enjoy the show as much as the books and someone who doesn't care if the show airs the ending first, and I can understand why many don't want the latter to happen - we just have to accept that things have moved on. Yes, it hurts - 'But It Was Ours!'. We did the hard part in spreading the word, and the reward is that it isn't our special little secret any more.

[Fez]

Numbers =/ core; Fervent =/core (though core fans can be fervent fans, they need not be)

Also, your numbers are off:

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/swords-suds-game-thrones-spurs-sales-hbo-200131821--finance.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/books-and-media/george-rr-martin-at-the-top-of-his-game-of-thrones/article4259412/

I could link more.

The 1,000,000 # you reference is for paperback only, and probably only the U.S. paperback at that. Book publishing numbers aren't easy to come by, especially for an author that's published worldwide such as GRRM and consequently has more than one publisher. There are also e-books and audio books to consider, and those numbers are not small either before or after the show premiered. But again, and regardless, bigger numbers =/ core. Not to mention book sales numbers are far more reliable and accurate than TV ratings numbers for any show ever.

Most of the folks I know who watch the show, also have read the books (some before the show, more after). Almost everyone I know who watches the show does so because it was recommended to them by a book reader. I know no one who has read/seen both that prefers the show to the books (out of a few dozen I've discussed it with), and though I'm sure these folks exist they are likely in the minority not only based on my experience but just look around this forum or others. I do know a person such as yourself who has both read the books (he read them first) and watched the show and doesn't really care either way if the show surpasses the books, but he is also in the minority, as everyone else is anxious to read the book first. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of GRRM's fans, both core and not, will be disappointed to see the ending to the series before they read it.

A Song of Ice and Fire (like so many other things) is a word of mouth phenomenon that was anything but an overnight out of the gate sensation. A word of mouth phenomenon starts with the core fans. Core being synonymous with fundamental, original, central, nucleus, etc.. not most, largest, average. Folks who jump on a bandwagon are never core fans of anything. They certainly can be fans though.

First and foremost GRRM is an author, and as such his core fans, those that have been with him longest, and touted his works earliest thereby spreading the word of his works, are the book readers. First and foremost, A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of books, even if they are surpassed one day by a television production based on them.

Firstly, you're citing numbers for books sold for the entire series, when there's obviously a lot of overlap there (who reads the later books without reading the earlier ones?), and are from after the tv series was on, which means it includes tons of people who were only introduced to the books by way of the series.

[ETA: And it would make sense to use US-only book sales, since the 6.8 million viewers for the first episode are the US-only viewers.]

And personal experiences, or using something like this forum, are not useful pieces of evidence. Personally, of my friends who watch the show, I'd say its 50/50 between those who'd read the books and those who hadn't; but I run with a literate crowd. Its when I go to websites that have nothing to do with fantasy that I see just how unimportant the books are to the vast majority of fans of the tv series.

For instance, there's Grantland, which I mention only because I go there regularly and am very familiar with it. All the writers there seem to love the tv series, and many of them were onboard from the very first season. I have no doubt that their passion, along with the passion of quite a few people at ESPN itself helped introduce the show to quite a lot of people who otherwise had no idea what it was. So you're right that word-of-mouth has been incredibly important to the show's success. But the thing is, very few of those writers have read the books, in fact, several of them openly complain about the fact that the books even exist. Not so much due to the danger of spoilers, but because they feel to railroads the show too much at times, and prevents it from exploring interesting dynamics that may come up during production.

And if the book readers stopped watching the show, I think the writers at Grantland, particularly the TV critics, would be thrilled; since it'd mean less comments about how the show "ruined" one aspect or another or about how the critics just "don't understand" something that they didn't like.

Anyway, beyond that, Daske's already said what I would say in a much more clear manner than I would. So I'll leave it at that.

[Rockroi]

For instance, there's Grantland, which I mention only because I go there regularly and am very familiar with it. All the writers there seem to love the tv series, and many of them were onboard from the very first season. I have no doubt that their passion, along with the passion of quite a few people at ESPN itself helped introduce the show to quite a lot of people who otherwise had no idea what it was. So you're right that word-of-mouth has been incredibly important to the show's success. But the thing is, very few of those writers have read the books, in fact, several of them openly complain about the fact that the books even exist. Not so much due to the danger of spoilers, but because they feel to railroads the show too much at times, and prevents it from exploring interesting dynamics that may come up during production.

Yeah- sorry us readers were there when it all started. I can completely understand why they are upset we exist- the nerve of us to develop brand-loyalty to a specific item, grow a customer base for that item and then- SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE of our loyalty to the book- created a market for that item in another medium. In other words, if it was not for the "readers" .... there would be no series to look at every Sunday for 10 weeks in Spring.

I read Grantland fervently and their George W. Bush-esque disdain for the "readers" is a black mark on them as a whole. I mean... writers who ... are ... upset over people ... who read? No seriously, tell me again how much that makes sense.

Yes, readers DO GET annoying when they say "Well... in the books... " And their/our desire to see what we read on the actual screen CAN be annoying ( I do it to- again, Stannis is just a blown call). BUT... see... we know where this is going. THe book IS better than the show because the book has had more time, can express more detail, can explore more ground, and can do more with more characters. After all, you can actually HAVE a seen in the books with 50,000 people... the show? You have to PAY those 50,000 people. So when we see a "KIng's Touranament"... attended by like 25 people- yeah we MAY complain. And when series ideas are glossed over we can get miffed. But many of us UNDERSTAND that sacrifices have to be made. I certainly do.

And if the book readers stopped watching the show, I think the writers at Grantland, particularly the TV critics, would be thrilled; since it'd mean less comments about how the show "ruined" one aspect or another or about how the critics just "don't understand" something that they didn't like.

Well, thankfully for HBO, we won't. again, its the book readers that got this thing this far. Their perpetual loyalty to the series has paid off benefits to HBO and to the newer viewers (and the publishers, and Martin etc). ETA: In fact, the ONLY group that has not enjoyed a comparable benefit has been... the readers... as we continue to wait for books year... after year... after year.... Hey, if the pristine, porcelain dolls at Grantland don't want to listen to reders complain... God... if only there was a mechanism that would allow them to turn off our/their annoying pipping.... I believe they call that magic item the "Back Button."

And, just to reiterate a small point- the vast vast vast vast vast vast vast vast vast ,majority to boarders here AND readers out there- hard core and soft-core (phrasing) ... LOVE the show. The show satisfies almost every single sensation of every one of those classes.

But if Bill Simmons wants to complain that people read books OTHER THAN those involving sports teams, he's got the money to complain that way.

Despite all the books sold originally the ASoIaF series was pre-show virtually unknown outside of the genre fans. And this has obviously changed.

But that's true of almost anything - outside of the actual "fans" people are not likely to know much about a series, topic or genre. Its that original base that is required to make anything attractive to another medium. And the Martin readers were big enough to make that. Yeah, the base has "grown" but its sort of a "pink-hat" phenomenon and that is a necessary function of any successful "fan base." After alkl, how many people do you know who say things like "I knew Pearl Jam when they went around under the name 'Mookey Blaylock'." BUt Pearl Jam does not need those original fans... but ... weren't those original fans onto something? And if you change the item that we were all fans of so much... don't you run the risk of producing an inferior product?

And if you are trying to retain the fickle masses who cannot even bother to read the books (which is fine)... don't you run the risk that they will start watching "Walking Dead?" And nobody wants that.

To me, the books are the road map; if people who never read the books don't like that- find a new road! If the show goes off that reservation too much, they run the risk of showing us mush- a bunch of processed ideas and tropes that lack the sum and substance of what Martin originally brought to us and that we all brought to the masses.

But I also DO trust B&B to do with the show they deem best. And by-in-large they have insisted on one area: the books come first. And there is a reason its like that.

And I was calling him Stannis the Mannis LONG before it was cool. Fuck... ITS STILL NOT COOL!

[FalseKnight]

For example, they can flesh out Aegon and give us more insight to his past and his trip to Westeros. If they can pull of season 5 and the book comes out Summer 2015, I think that's enough time for the show producers to catch up and start adding elements from TWOW into season 6.

If they want to cut the fat off of AFfC and ADwD, they're not going to add a boring travelogue. Revealing more about Aegon would spoil a major plot line--albeit a poorly introduced one.

[Le Cygne]

And if you are trying to retain the fickle masses who cannot even bother to read the books (which is fine)... don't you run the risk that they will start watching "Walking Dead?" And nobody wants that.

Everyone is watching The Walking Dead anyway (because it's a good show).

[Le Cygne]

Firstly, you're citing numbers for books sold for the entire series, when there's obviously a lot of overlap there (who reads the later books without reading the earlier ones?), and are from after the tv series was on, which means it includes tons of people who were only introduced to the books by way of the series.

You can say only paperback (the first numbers you cited) or US or pre-series readers matter, but that doesn't make it so. A book reader is a book reader. Whether they read the books before, during, or after, or wherever they read them, in whatever format, a fan is a fan. Many who read the books after watching the show have the same opinions as those who read them before watching the show. There's no basis for making distinctions.

Interesting list:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-new-and-improved-sff-all-time-sales.html

I love that JK Rowling is #1. And Tolkien with 300 million copies, that's awesome.

[titanx5]

I have the feeling that we may even get some WOW content next year in s5 already, as believe we will get Battle for Ice, and Battle for Slavers Bay in s5e09 probably. As I recon they cant make Stannis stay at the wall for the whole season, and believe they will make him march straight for WF, and not Deepwood Motte. So we will see him get stuck in the snow, and set camp and a stand at that little village he is at the moment. Doubt we will see Dany stay for more than nearly 2 seasons at Meeren, so we will probably get that battle as well. For people saying that they wont show to battles in one season due to costs, just need to look at s4, where there is battle at the wall, as well as a siege of Meeren from the trailers. And they will want to show Jon Snow getting Julio Cesar-ed for the finale.

The show runners always want to try and top the previous season, sometimes its not always possible, especially how awesome s4 is going to be, that why they will combine ADWD and AFFC in s5, however certain characters could possibly reach a little bit of WOW already. I just hope that we may get a few more episodes in the final 7th Season like maybe 12 episodes which is hopefully possible. So GRRM needs to really get his act together or he may have spoilers from WOW already by next years finale for certain characters

[Fightbringer]

If the writers do go for 7 seasons, the show will definitely catch up, best case scenario is tWoW is released early next year before S5, giving GRRM two seasons to complete aDoS(unlikely to be able to do that unless he does nothing else in that time). On the shows end, I think that, whilst I can understand merging aDwD and aFfC into one season (although maybe they should add on a few more episodes) by the looks of things I think tWoW will be long enough, and dramatic enough to go two seasons, especially given that aSoS gets two as well, and tWoW is shaping up to be very exciting, just in the first parts. If they do that, they could give George around three years to get it finished, without damaging the show too much at all, in fact, maybe enhancing it.

I doubt GRRM will take the Godfather approach though, it would be unlike him to let the show impact the book so much

[Nordeast]

The people who have made this show- B&B etc- have done a tremendous job for the most part (I have complaints, but they are relatively minor...except Stannis- they blew it). That's not the point.

Not to use too fine an example but LET'S SAY in 2015 I get struck with a horrible disease and I decide to have my children raised by other people while the disease slowly kills me. And lets say that disease slows me down ... a lot. I mean I get really REALLY slow. However, after a year, I go into remission and I can raise my kids again. I go to that other couple and say "I would like my kids back" and they say ... well... see... look at how your kids are now? They are in a better school, they get better grades, etc etc etc. But they're my kids, I say. And they agree, BUT they say- they really would be better off with them. And lets say EVERYONE agrees that these people did a fucking GREAT job raising my kids. And people basically say, "Look, Rockroi, you are just so slowed by that disease you had... so maybe WE should finish raising your kids and then when we are done you can take them to college."

To me, I don't care how great these people were raising my kids, so long as I am not hurting them, they belong with me.

Yeah, B&B et al have done a great job, in many ways far far far in excess of what could be anticipated. But to have THEM tell the end of the story and not ... the actual story teller? I can't imagine that being acceptable to an artist or any creative person, regardless of the magic that B&B have created and captured.

And, frankly, it sort of makes me a little angry for obvious reasons, but not to be forgotten is that I like the way Martin tells the story (he's good at it). I LIKE how he tells me more backs story than I need; I LIKE how he describes the food; I LIKE how he makes me hate Jaime and then makes Jaime my favorite character; I LIKE how he uses story-telling devices that cannot be reproduced on TV (ie: Whitebeard). And that will- to some degree- be lost with the show. Not because of accuracy but because of presentation.

I love the show, but ... allow me the cliche - the books are better.

whats your beef with how Stannis is portrayed?

[Nordeast]

The show isn't going to stop its steady march forward and, with such a huge cast and crew and child actors involved (along with the difficulties of contract negotiation and actor availability) taking a hiatus or extending beyond 8 (or more likely 7) seasons just isn't going to happen.

Regardless of who the core is and who follows whom, the reality appears to be either GRRM needs to write faster or D&D will finish the story first.

Who are the child actors you are so worried about?

Bran? he is wearing huge jackets the entire time so him getting a little bigger won't matter.

Arya? That actress will continue to look young for a while.

Sansa? You might be right with her.

Tommen? Re-cast him if they have to. They have done it a bunch already and it hasn't hurt anything.

Danny? Already played by an actress that is years older.

Ricken? Re-cast, no one would notice.

Gotta love how you thinks getting acting jobs is so easy. If splitting seasons was as unthinkable as you seem to think then Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, all wouldn't have been able to do it. In your fantasy world Harry Crane, Don Draper, Tony Sopranos and Chris M all would have demanded movie star contracts to continue on the shows that made them famous and got them critical acclaim. Actors don't leave huge shows to go into the unknown and not guaranteed world of acting free agency. Especially a bunch of European actors that are staring down the barrel of plays for the rest of their careers if they pick one or two bad movies.

I.E Jon Snows movie just bombed at the box office. In acting that is a big deal.

If George is as delusional in his meetings with D&D as he has been in his last 2 interviews, then I don't blame them for asking for a split 8 ep front end and 8 backend 7th season. But otherwise all it would take to get that would be for them to show some balls when talking with HBO.

[Werthead]

If splitting seasons was as unthinkable as you seem to think then Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, all wouldn't have been able to do it.

Those were all relatively low-budget shows with (relatively) small casts. Every time HBO has tried to do anything similar with their big-budget shows it has led to their cancellation, so they will not, under any circumstances, do it with GoT.

Those shows have either ended or are ending before the 6+1 season contract renegotiation period, so that does not have a big impact on them.

[Newstar]

Looking at the various timelines and estimates for the TV series, it seems like the only way the books finish ahead of the show--even in the most optimistic scenario, even assuming 10 or so seasons--is if GRRM can publish ADOS in under three years from beginning work on it, and I don't think that there's any way that GRRM can do that.