[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick Without Repercussion

[Tyrion1991]

Wot? From the trailer can we see her sitting on a throne in a pyramid. There's also an attack by the Sons of the Harpy. Hizdahr has been cast. This season for Dany will be Book 3-5.

I assume you are referring to the trailer. That is not an attack by the Sons of the Harpy, you will notice the man is wearing a tokar with graffeti on the wall behind him saying "kill the Masters" and the angry mob attacking him are dressed as slaves which we see in the tunnels having been freed as per the books. The Sons of the Harpy did not fight as an angry mob and their attacks were always knifemen in the dark.

When they say that Dany struggles to rule its obvious from the trailer that this is about her wanting to restrain her sense of righteousness and desire to punish the slavers. As well as being thematically linked to her chaining her dragons. This is more or less what happens thematically in her final ASOS chapters but the show is tying it to the capture of the dragons; which is doable. How they intend to merge Daarios romance, which is totally unrelated to this, remains to be seen.

I highly doubt we will see the Sons of the Harpy or any organized resistance to Danys rule this season.

Hidzhar only becomes relevant once she agrees to marry him and then there is the conflict with Daario which results. If she agrees to marry Hidzhar mid season 4 with the conflict with Daario then the show would have basically nothing for the characters to do in season 5. It would literally be days from the scene in the pit with drogon. They can't push that forward because the Battle of Meereen is end of season material and they can't invent stuff for Dany to do.

[Fiernos]

So, when are they gonna have Balon's death? Has Patrick Malahide been cast for season 4?

[David Selig]

Littlefinger's sigil on the wall of the brothel was all kinds of silly - since when does Littlefinger publically advertise that he owns brothels? Why would Tywin tolerate a man whose sigil is hanging beside a brothel's door? Owning brothels is LF's "undercover" activity, he would not show publically that he owns it. And then Oberyn would, out of all the brothels in the city, walk directly into the one where he can expect the most spies?

from time to time. So what he said about Robb besting him at everything was not entirely objective.

Well, according to the show, LF owns all brothels in the world, so Oberyn didn't have much of a choice. :)

[protar]

Lol, you mean like Barristan did? He certainly didn't want to leave the KG either.

Is Barristan Tywin's favourite son?

[Buckwheat]

Well, according to the show, LF owns all brothels in the world, so Oberyn didn't have much of a choice. :)

Good point. I assumed all the brothel scenes always happened in the same brothel, that happened to be the one owned by him. :)

[Tyrion1991]

I agree with what others have said. If Oberyn is such a romantic and desirable guy then why would he need to go and hire prostitutes? Surely just travelling to the courts of noble houses and inns/taverns or at tournies in the realm would fit more for whats meant to be an adventurous heroic character. Having to pay for it feels like a poor fit. Especially when he pulls rank on the male pimp. In fact, him and Elaria come across as quite snobbish the way they're acting bossing around the prostitutes and picking over them like choice meat. All that aristocratic arrogance and elitism. Certainly not the general egalitarian and libertarian vibe that the Dornish are meant to exude. Never mind that in previous seasons when Varys n Littlefinger talk it was established that Littlefingers brothels are frequented by pedophiles and necrophiliacs. Do you really want to make this heroic character be introduced in such a place? What does that say about Oberyn? Nothing pleasant.

[teemo]

I agree with what others have said. If Oberyn is such a romantic and desirable guy then why would he need to go and hire prostitutes? Surely just travelling to the courts of noble houses and inns/taverns or at tournies in the realm would fit more for whats meant to be an adventurous heroic character. Having to pay for it feels like a poor fit. Especially when he pulls rank on the male pimp. In fact, him and Elaria come across as quite snobbish the way they're acting bossing around the prostitutes and picking over them like choice meat. All that aristocratic arrogance and elitism. Certainly not the general egalitarian and libertarian vibe that the Dornish are meant to exude. Never mind that in previous seasons when Varys n Littlefinger talk it was established that Littlefingers brothels are frequented by pedophiles and necrophiliacs. Do you really want to make this heroic character be introduced in such a place? What does that say about Oberyn? Nothing pleasant.

Yeah, this introduction makes Oberyn look sleazy and first impressions are everything. Really stupid way to add some gratuitous nudity to the episode. And I personally think the actor isn't very good.

[Relic]

I'm at the point where I hate watch this show. I just don't understand why they would deviate from material that they do such a shit job re-writing. As someone mentioned earlier GRRM 's dialog is streets ahead of what this show is offering us, yet they continue to change entire blocks of it.

That said I appreciated the opening scene, but thought the pelt bit was a step too much.

[DemiNymph]

Yeah, this introduction makes Oberyn look sleazy and first impressions are everything. Really stupid way to add some gratuitous nudity to the episode. And I personally think the actor isn't very good.

I agree. The actor doesn't shine. It's such a meaty character to work with and he was a bit blah.

[maidenandwarrior]

Is Barristan Tywin's favourite son?

I think you are missing my point. This isn't about what Jaime wants, it is about an opportunity presented to Tywin. Are you honestly telling me that Tywin wouldn't see the chance to get Jaime out of the KG and take it? Really? All he would have to do is, in public, make some speech about how it is his pleasure to allow Jaime to retire to the Rock to take up a mantle of Lord of CR, or something. Jaime would have no choice, especially since he has proven that his hand is a problem as he let a king die on his watch.

This is why this plothole bugs me in the first place, because it never comes up in the books and shouldn't have come up in the show. It is totally pointless.

[protar]

I think you are missing my point. This isn't about what Jaime wants, it is about an opportunity presented to Tywin. Are you honestly telling me that Tywin wouldn't see the chance to get Jaime out of the KG and take it? Really? All he would have to do is, in public, make some speech about how it is his pleasure to allow Jaime to retire to the Rock to take up a mantle of Lord of CR, or something. Jaime would have no choice, especially since he has proven that his hand is a problem as he let a king die on his watch.

This is why this plothole bugs me in the first place, because it never comes up in the books and shouldn't have come up in the show. It is totally pointless.

It does come up in the books though. Tywin wants Jaime to relinquish his duties so he can inherit CR and IIRC he specifically points out that as stupid as Joffrey was to dismiss Barristan it does set a useful precedent. And in both the books and the show Jaime refuses and Tywin can't really do much more short of killing or exiling Jaime. He could make a public speech, but Jaime would just ignore that.

[Le Cygne]

But her being with Daario only becomes important when Quentyn arrives and with her marriage to Hidzhar.

Daario is important from the start. There's the push and pull, her dragon self (Daario) and the silk queen, and that's happening now. And she falls in love with him, they have to tell that story. She's drawn to him for a reason, and it has everything to do with the overall plot, but even as character development, falling in love with someone is a pretty big deal. You have to show the audience, not tell them.

[Roose Seal]

I'm at the point where I hate watch this show. I just don't understand why they would deviate from material that they do such a shit job re-writing. As someone mentioned earlier GRRM 's dialog is streets ahead of what this show is offering us, yet they continue to change entire blocks of it.

That said I appreciated the opening scene, but thought the pelt bit was a step too much.

Is my general feeling too, and has been for a while.

There's nothing wrong with writers who adapt stuff, but I abhor writers who think they are more clever than the creator of the source material —or think they can improve on the source material.

Frankly, I've read Harry Potter fanfiction that had dialogue better than the original dialogue in this show.

[maidenandwarrior]

It does come up in the books though. Tywin wants Jaime to relinquish his duties so he can inherit CR and IIRC he specifically points out that as stupid as Joffrey was to dismiss Barristan it does set a useful precedent. And in both the books and the show Jaime refuses and Tywin can't really do much more short of killing or exiling Jaime. He could make a public speech, but Jaime would just ignore that.

No, it doesn't, not in the way I am talking about. In the books, the scene with Tywin and Jaime takes place way later in the timeline. Tywin is all- there is precedent, Barristan opened the door. And Jaime is all, someone needs to close it again. They get in this fight, and Tywin is dead not that much sooner after. There will be what...eight episodes between this argument and Tywin's death on the show?

This is massively different in the show because Jaime is Lord Commander, serving in the city and at the wedding, when Joff dies. He is therefore responsible, indirectly, for Joff's death--just like Barristan was for Robert's. The fact that there will be no reprecussions for this, and that Tywin isn't jumping at the opportunity to force Jaime's hand and get him out of the KG...it all is just unnecessary. Could have easily been avoided if Jaime's timeline had stayed the same.

[protar]

No, it doesn't, not in the way I am talking about. In the books, the scene with Tywin and Jaime takes place way later in the timeline. Tywin is all- there is precedent, Barristan opened the door. And Jaime is all, someone needs to close it again. They get in this fight, and Tywin is dead not that much sooner after. There will be what...eight episodes between this argument and Tywin's death on the show?

This is massively different in the show because Jaime is Lord Commander, serving in the city and at the wedding, when Joff dies. He is therefore responsible, indirectly, for Joff's death--just like Barristan was for Robert's. The fact that there will be no reprecussions for this, and that Tywin isn't jumping at the opportunity to force Jaime's hand and get him out of the KG...it all is just unnecessary. Could have easily been avoided if Jaime's timeline had stayed the same.

I agree things would have been neater if Jaime hadn't arrived in KL until after Joff's death, but there's still no real problem here. Tywin is already adamant on Jaime leaving the KG before Joffrey's death and yet he can't remove him now. So why would he be able to remove him after Joffrey bites it?

[Le Cygne]

This is massively different in the show because Jaime is Lord Commander, serving in the city and at the wedding, when Joff dies. He is therefore responsible, indirectly, for Joff's death--just like Barristan was for Robert's. The fact that there will be no reprecussions for this, and that Tywin isn't jumping at the opportunity to force Jaime's hand and get him out of the KG...it all is just unnecessary. Could have easily been avoided if Jaime's timeline had stayed the same.Could have easily been avoided if Jaime's timeline had stayed the same.

There are so many things lost by changing the timeline. Filler scenes and backtracking were the result. Jaime and Cersei get to draw out the breakup that essentially took one glorious scene in the books (that was the moment of truth). The Jaime and Tywin scene lost it's dramatic punch (in the books, Joffrey is dead, and Tywin is telling Jaime to marry Margaery and Jaime says no). Jaime backtracks on a season and a half of character development. And we lost Brienne mourning for Catelyn and Jaime acting all snarky while trying to think of something to make her feel better. And this is an earlier change, but just one line changed when Loras finds out what happened to Renly, and that great scene with Jaime, Brienne, and Loras is lost, and Brienne telling Margaery she didn't do it didn't quite match that.

[maidenandwarrior]

There are so many things lost by changing the timeline. Filler scenes and backtracking were the result. Jaime and Cersei get to draw out the breakup that essentially took one glorious scene in the books (that was the moment of truth). The Jaime and Tywin scene lost it's dramatic punch (in the books, Joffrey is dead, and Tywin is telling Jaime to marry Margaery and Jaime says no). Jaime backtracks on a season and a half of character development. And we lost Brienne mourning for Catelyn and Jaime acting all snarky while trying to think of something to make her feel better. And this is an earlier change, but just one line changed when Loras finds out what happened to Renly, and that great scene with Jaime, Brienne, and Loras is lost, and Brienne telling Margaery she didn't do it didn't quite match that.

Well said. It almost feels like all the scenes have lost their emotional punch, which is sad. :(

[Lee-Sensei]

I agree with what others have said. If Oberyn is such a romantic and desirable guy then why would he need to go and hire prostitutes? Surely just travelling to the courts of noble houses and inns/taverns or at tournies in the realm would fit more for whats meant to be an adventurous heroic character. Having to pay for it feels like a poor fit. Especially when he pulls rank on the male pimp. In fact, him and Elaria come across as quite snobbish the way they're acting bossing around the prostitutes and picking over them like choice meat. All that aristocratic arrogance and elitism. Certainly not the general egalitarian and libertarian vibe that the Dornish are meant to exude. Never mind that in previous seasons when Varys n Littlefinger talk it was established that Littlefingers brothels are frequented by pedophiles and necrophiliacs. Do you really want to make this heroic character be introduced in such a place? What does that say about Oberyn? Nothing pleasant.

Oberyn (and Robert too for that matter) get it when ever they can. I'm sure he can get women without paying for it too.

[TeamLannister]

I loved this episode, however like the majority of those in this thread, I had some issues with the tv shows rendition. My main problem was the arrival of Jamie and Brienne. On one hand, I can see how Joffrey's death affects Jamie more with him being there and failing to protect him (and how this will cause him to be extra vigilant with Tommen). Likewise, I can see how Cersei's loathing of this new, physically weaker Jamie will grow with him being unable to help her son, and the greater significance with Jamie confessing to Tyrion about Tysha. I like these possible routes for Jamie. However, by bringing Brienne back, I see only problems. Brienne just being able to see Sansa and not try to interact with her/tell her about her promise to her mother felt a little out of character especially since we know Brienne knows about the Red Wedding. She's willing to tell Margaery that she still considers Renly a king and that she hasn't forgotten about Stannis, but can't take the time to pop by and be like, "Hey Sansa. Sorry about your family. I knew your mother and don't worry I'm going to get you out of here. Just be patient (insert filler here until Sansa is on the run with Littlefinger and Brienne has to try and find her again)." By bringing in Brienne so early it seems like it'll create a ripple effect throughout later storylines).

Also, since we didn't get to see Brienne mourn for Catelyn I wished we could've gotten a scene with Littlefinger hearing the news.

[Oakenfist]

You guys do realise you're all a vocal minority, right? I mean even shows like True Detective had haters.

But I'm hoping Stannis this season starts to see some redemption because I think you guys are right when you say the showrunners despise his character, so they continue to make him out to be a headcase villain. From the preview it looks like Stannis, Mel, and Davos will be shown quite a lot let's hope they don't continue to butcher that story.